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    Total Football v Catenaccio

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    Total Football v Catenaccio Empty Total Football v Catenaccio

    Post by Machiavel Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:29 am

    Out of these two, which is the dominating philosophy?


    Total Football - foundations laid by Jack Reynolds .. enhanced and developed by Rinus Michels

    Catenaccio - developed by Helenio Herrera
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    Post by Roger Hunt Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:12 pm

    Neither - 4-4-2, wingers get some chalk on their boots and whip some crosses into the big centre-forward, central midfielders run round like headless chickens, that's what I like to see.
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    Post by L r d Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:21 pm

    Total football is more spectacular to watch. Just about anyone can play Catenaccio, even the incredibly average Newcastle, in their dour 4-6-0 formation.
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    Post by fcb Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:28 pm

    Roger_Hunt wrote:Neither - 4-4-2, wingers get some chalk on their boots and whip some crosses into the big centre-forward, central midfielders run round like headless chickens, that's what I like to see.

    Laugh
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    Post by Tweesus Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:40 pm

    *waits patiently for Kimbo* Whistle
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    Post by Kimbo Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:54 pm

    Tweedle, all i have to say is,,, Newcastle have played some of the sexiest football this countries ever seen("The Entertainers")................... Liverpool on the other hand, have not. Ale
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    Post by Roger Hunt Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:56 pm

    The thread is not 'extreme tactical naivete under Kevin 'I woold loove it' Keegan' vs Catenaccio...

    Newcastle bear as much resemblance to total football as I do to Pamela Anderson.
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    Post by Kimbo Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:00 pm

    Roger_Hunt wrote:The thread is not 'extreme tactical naivete under Kevin 'I woold loove it' Keegan' vs Catenaccio...

    Newcastle bear as much resemblance to total football as I do to Pamela Anderson.

    We weren't trying to copy anyone. Rolling Eyes


    Anyway, Total football > Catenaccio
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    Post by Roger Hunt Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:25 pm

    OK then, how many successful teams have used Total Football? 2?

    And how many have used Catenaccio? All of Serie A for 15 years or something?

    Total Football is beautiful but it's almost impossible to achieve.
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    Post by Parks lives Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:25 pm

    Roger_Hunt wrote:
    Total Football is beautiful but it's almost impossible to achieve.

    We did it in 99. Very Happy
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    Post by Roger Hunt Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:27 pm

    Parks Lives wrote:
    Roger_Hunt wrote:
    Total Football is beautiful but it's almost impossible to achieve.

    We did it in 99. Very Happy

    Did you fuck.

    When did Gary Nev end up playing centre forward exactly?

    Brilliantly fluid attacking team, but not Total Football.
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    Post by Parks lives Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:29 pm

    He's the only one who let us down.

    Schmeichel up front, Irwin as a left winger, Keane as centre back, Sheringham in central midfield, Scholes as a forward. ok
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    Post by Roger Hunt Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:34 pm

    You know exactly what I mean Parks. Total Football means anyone can play anywhere on the pitch and players change position throughout each game.

    You were much more tactically disciplined than that. No way Beckham and Giggs were going to swap sides (Kanchelskis and Giggs could have!)

    Still a superb attacking side - any of your front 6 players would regularly score.
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    Post by Parks lives Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:37 pm

    Roger_Hunt wrote:

    Still a superb attacking side -

    Wink
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    Post by Roger Hunt Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:39 pm

    True story.

    Thank god you're not a patch on that team now eh Wink
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    Post by blutgraetsche Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:01 pm

    In principle, a team of specialists will always be superior to a team of versatile 'generalists'. But being a very strong believer in attacking football, I'd always prefer Total Football over Catenaccio.
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    Post by L r d Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:09 pm

    Kimbo wrote:Tweedle, all i have to say is,,, Newcastle have played some of the sexiest football this countries ever seen("The Entertainers")................... Liverpool on the other hand, have not. Ale

    Hahaha! Ask someone about the Liverpool '88 team... or err, watch them 4-3's again.
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    Post by Roger Hunt Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:12 pm

    I did think of pointing this out Obispo but I've pretty much given up trying to have football discussions with Kimbo. Erm
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    Post by Kimbo Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:19 pm

    Obispo wrote:
    Kimbo wrote:Tweedle, all i have to say is,,, Newcastle have played some of the sexiest football this countries ever seen("The Entertainers")................... Liverpool on the other hand, have not. Ale

    Hahaha! Ask someone about the Liverpool '88 team... or err, watch them 4-3's again.

    Known for it's defence. ok
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    Post by L r d Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:20 pm

    Kimbo wrote:
    Obispo wrote:
    Kimbo wrote:Tweedle, all i have to say is,,, Newcastle have played some of the sexiest football this countries ever seen("The Entertainers")................... Liverpool on the other hand, have not. Ale

    Hahaha! Ask someone about the Liverpool '88 team... or err, watch them 4-3's again.

    Known for it's defence. ok

    Aye, Barnes, Beardsley, Aldridge - some of the world's best defenders right there.
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    Post by Roger Hunt Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:21 pm

    Told you Rolling Eyes
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    Post by Kimbo Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:29 pm

    Obispo wrote:
    Kimbo wrote:
    Obispo wrote:
    Kimbo wrote:Tweedle, all i have to say is,,, Newcastle have played some of the sexiest football this countries ever seen("The Entertainers")................... Liverpool on the other hand, have not. Ale

    Hahaha! Ask someone about the Liverpool '88 team... or err, watch them 4-3's again.

    Known for it's defence. ok

    Aye, Barnes, Beardsley, Aldridge - some of the world's best defenders right there.

    I'm no expert on Liverpools history, BUT when i do hear things about their team in the 80s it's always about how good they were in defence and how Hansen exploited the back pass rule. That's all. Ale
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    Post by Roger Hunt Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:32 pm

    All the 70s and 80s teams had strong defences... and but 1985 onwards that was matched by probably the best attacking play in the country. In particular the 1987-1988 team was stunning. If you like movement and passing it was just poetry.
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    Post by The-Frank-Tavern Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:37 pm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catenaccio

    was otto here? 4th point in Catenaccio in football history
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    Post by L r d Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:51 pm

    Kimbo wrote:
    Obispo wrote:
    Kimbo wrote:
    Obispo wrote:
    Kimbo wrote:Tweedle, all i have to say is,,, Newcastle have played some of the sexiest football this countries ever seen("The Entertainers")................... Liverpool on the other hand, have not. Ale

    Hahaha! Ask someone about the Liverpool '88 team... or err, watch them 4-3's again.

    Known for it's defence. ok

    Aye, Barnes, Beardsley, Aldridge - some of the world's best defenders right there.

    I'm no expert on Liverpools history, BUT when i do hear things about their team in the 80s it's always about how good they were in defence and how Hansen exploited the back pass rule. That's all. Ale

    Hansen exploited the back-pass rule, but he and lawro were probably the most elegant defenders ever seen in this country. I don't care that they're pricks now, both of them were brilliant at actually playing the ball out of defence. Not just defending. Also, from what I've heard and seen, Lawerson was the cleanest tackler we've ever had.

    Roger's basically said all that needs to be said about the '88 team.
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    Post by bluenine Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:59 pm

    I think most people misinterpret Catenaccio.... let me clear some myths here:

    1. Catenaccio, when invented by Herrera, was the MORE ATTACKING version of the system that was used in Italy at that time (called "Verrou")... most people actually forget that most defensive formations are a variation of Verrou, not catenaccio. In short, playing defensively is NOT the same as catenaccio.

    2. Catenaccio actually introduced the power of attacking fullbacks in the modern setup... it was taken to new hieghts by the great Inter fullbacks of that time, Facchetti and Burgnich.

    3. Most Serie A teams do NOT play catenaccio as people imagine. Infact, the closest we have seen to catenaccio in modern football was the Milan team of early 90s, with Baresi doing bits of a sweeper.

    4. One of the better examples of Catenaccio in recent times was the CL final: Milan 4-0 Barca. It was not just a defensive strategy, even tho it focussed on the defensive formation.

    5. Catenaccio went out of fad as did the use of a sweeper. Without a true sweeper, it just does not work, as some recent Azzurri coaches learnt the hard way (Zoff, Maldini, Trap).


    Obispo wrote:Total football is more spectacular to watch. Just about anyone can play Catenaccio, even the incredibly average Newcastle, in their dour 4-6-0 formation.
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    Post by Machiavel Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:36 pm

    I think majority of football viewers/reporters (even) enjoyed Total Football in the early 70's

    case study - aftermath of the 72' European Cup Final

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Inter’s defeat in the European Cup Final was welcomed throughout Europe. Newspapers from all over the continent celebrated the fact that catenaccio had been beaten by total football.

    According to ‘The Times’: ‘Ajax proved that creative attack is the real lifeblood of the game; that blanket defence can be outwitted and outmanoeuvred, and by doing so they made the outlines of the night a little sharper and the shadows a little brighter.’

    In Holland ‘De Telegraaf’ ran a nine page special on the game with words like ‘superstar’ and ‘triumph’ liberally splattered across its headlines, while ‘Algemeen Dagblad’ declared: ‘The Inter system undermined. Defensive football is destroyed.’

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Many say Cruijff was the master -- but some credit should go to Ruud Krol.
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    Post by forza_rossi Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:46 am

    But there are people like me who also enjoy the defensive side of football. Of course i would love to watch the likes of Barca, Arsenal , United..etc, but then again i love to watch the defensive side of football. i really love the tackles put in by defenders. i think that just describes the other side of football that media has given so much negative publicty. As far as Cattenacio is concerned, i dont neccessarily enjoy it all the time but sometimes when i watch games frm the past i enjoy the challange that is being put infront of the opposition attackers. to go out break down defences, that are made for a specific sort of football ,to me is very intruiging
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    Post by toon h Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:03 am

    nowadays I think both are influencing the modern game in their own measure.

    the current blend of 4-5-1 used in many teams has certain characteristics borrowed heavily from catenaccio with deep lying wingers and up-coming full-backs (often overlapping the wingers).
    Call that total football? Not exactly? I don't think there is much total football played in its pure form. I suppose Barça is the team that comes closest but I see little else of it. It may be superior but if it's all but dead, what's the reason? too difficult to play in the modern game?
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    Post by Machiavel Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:36 pm

    @ toon h

    Reason why, we don't get to see Total Football in its 'real' from..

    - you need to have a squad that can adapt to all demands on the pitch (all 11 players must be able to defend, play as wingers, be center backs, can act as play makers when on the move and play as forwards etc)
    - preferably you need to have them come from a youth team (the players in that youth squad must know each others game inside out, when playing they must automatically know what their team mate is going to do)
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    another reason is why we don't see teams playing (even if possible not for a long time) Transfers .. players leave the clubs .. in the past teams across Europe seemed equal, now the successful and financially rich (sign players for a short term, or take youth players from other sides and see them as an investment for the future)
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