Rivaldo V Zidane

gone wrote:

Just for Torrente, this is how weak they are:

Dec 6: Olympiakos (Piraeus) 2 - Real Madrid 1
Erol Bulut 50, Vitor Borba Ferreira “Rivaldo” 87; Sergio Ramos 7]

Zack_thfc wrote:Anyways I think success with talent equals greatness, for invariably majority of posters picked Zidane...

But purely in Talent, I still think Rivaldo shades it...

Pierre Littbarski wrote:

Zack_thfc wrote:Anyways I think success with talent equals greatness, for invariably majority of posters picked Zidane...

But purely in Talent, I still think Rivaldo shades it...

You are a wise, foreskinless man

Alive and Kicking wrote:

WoW!! What an accomplishment, Olympiacos. He should have rather gone to the states and get dollars.

DD wrote:
90s produced three genuine legends: Romario, Rivaldo and Zidane.

DD wrote:Calidad,
I know, I have seen Ronaldo at all his levels, and at his prime there was no striker like him. ever.

However, I consider Ronaldo's career pre inury and post injury. Post injury he might as well have retired, like Van Basten.
Ronaldo didn't furfill his career because of injuries. People always remember Ronaldo's peak but forget that he's been playing way longer post injury than he was preinjury and never mind at his absolute peak.

Ronaldo's peak = top pantheon of greats (greatest striker of all)
Ronaldo's career = one tier down (due to injuries).

I don't want to speculate what could have been, but what has actually unfolded. Van Basten also could have been in the top panteon if he didn't get injured, but alas. Ronalod did get worse however. Let it go. Who wouldn't prefer that Ronaldo?

TeamSpirit wrote:

DD wrote:
90s produced three genuine legends: Romario, Rivaldo and Zidane.

Four, actually....

OwenThomas4 wrote:Why does no-one rate Ronaldo as a legend...

TeamSpirit wrote:

DD wrote:
90s produced three genuine legends: Romario, Rivaldo and Zidane.

Four, actually....

bluenine wrote:

In typical dutch style, DD forgot another legend who perhaps did not score enough goals.... but is as "genuine" a legend as anyone else

bluenine wrote:Maldini I forgot completely. He is one of the greatest defenders, but look at this sentence: Maradona, Beckenbauer, Cruijff, Pele, Romario, ...Maldini?!

bluenine wrote:Actually, I would take Rivaldo out... The 5 legends produced in the 90s for me:

Baggio, Romario, Maldini, Ronaldo, Zidane!

Target Man SSK wrote:Why's that?

DD wrote:

bluenine wrote:

In typical dutch style, DD forgot another legend who perhaps did not score enough goals.... but is as "genuine" a legend as anyone else

Not even sure what that's supposed to imply...


I was thinking about Baggio, but decided not to include him, but perhaps he did deserve to.

Maldini I forgot completely. He is one of the greatest defenders, but look at this sentence: Maradona, Beckenbauer, Cruijff, Pele, Romario, ...Maldini?!

Face it Maldini is a tier down. No disrespect whatsoever, because he's one of my all time favourite defenders.

BoBo Vieri wrote:

sheva7 wrote:

BoBo Vieri wrote:

sheva7 wrote:

BoBo Vieri wrote:

sheva7 wrote:

Torrente wrote:

sheva7 wrote:At least he didn't end his career after 3 straight trophyless seasons at the so called "biggest club in the world"...

No, but Rivaldo ended it with 2 straight trophiless seasons in Barcelona, then making a fool of himself in Seria A where Zidane was king, and going to a pathetic league because no big team could be bothered with him.

And of course, Zidane won the CL, unlike Rivaldo

So ZZ was the king of Serie A? Maybe that's why Juve couldn't win the league and even played in the Intertoto when he became their main player.

You can't blame Rivaldo for Barca's lack of sucess. Even being sorrounded by mediocre players he played very, very well. In fact he scored a hat trick at Bernabeu but the referee disalowed a legitimate goal and the game end tied.

Rivaldo also had excellent performances in the UCL. But there's a difference between playing with players like Roberto Carlos, Raul and Figo at their prime and average players.

ZZ was not the king of Serie A, he was definately one of the best players there at the time though. Juve had a bad season in 98-99, but why do you have to blame Zidane for the lack of success? Juve had no real replacement for Del Piero, while some of the older players (Di Livio, Deschamps etc.) were losing their form. The 2 seasons after that, Juve were right up there and they only marginally lost out on the Scudetto. I don't think you can blame Zidane for that. More that you need a bit of luck to win the title, and Juve didnt get it.

You've got to be joking if you think Barca had mediocre players. Luis Enrique, Figo, Kluivert, De Boer, Overmars etc. hardly mediocre is it?

Zidane also had excellent performances in the CL with Real AND Juve.

The point is that Zidane was sorounded by WC players at their prime. Makelele, Raul, Figo, Roberto Carlos, Ronaldo. Legends.

You've mentioned great players, but tell me if Overmars and Petit ever played at Barca like they played at Arsenal? Kluivert was in decline after 2000, he missed a lot of easy goals. Has Saviola ever fullfiled his potential at Barça or anywhere? Hesp, Bonano were the goalkeepers. Reiziger was the right back. A decadent Sergi was the left back. Christanval or Patrick Anderson, who clearly past his best, were the defenders. Geovanni and Rochemback weren't good enough to play for Barça. Xavi and Puyol were too young and missed experience. They were commanded by coaches like Rexach and Serra Ferrer.

At that time those players I mentioned were mediocre, except de Boer and Cocu.

Alright, I can't blame him for the 99 season, that's unfair.

Clutching at straws really. I never mentioned Petit. Overmars did fairly well at Barca. You must be joking about Kluivert. He was still scoring goals for fun up until the 2002-03 season.

98-99 FC Barcelone 15 Goals, 34 Games (-) 1 Goals, 7 Games
99-00 FC Barcelone 15 Goals, 26 Games 7 Goals, 14 Games (Champions League) 14 Goals, 14 Games
00-01 FC Barcelone 18 Goals, 31 Games 2 + 3 Goals, 4 + 8 Games (Champions League + UEFA Cup) 5 Goals, 7 Games
01-02 FC Barcelone 18 Goals, 33 Games 7 Goals, 16 Games (Champions League) 3 Games
02-03 FC Barcelone 17 Goals, 36 Games 5 Goals, 15 Games (Champions League)

If anything, it looks like he improved after 2000. I never mentioned Saviola, but he was good in his first season at Barca. After that its irrelevant since Rivaldo had already left.

So De Boer, Cocu, Luis Enrique, Guardiola, Kluivert, Sergi - you call them medicore players. Please tell me if i'm missing something, but that seems like a pretty awesome team to me.

Again i sense double standards. You fail to mention that Real had a 34 yo Hierro and Ivan Helguera as their centre backs. You failed to mention that they didnt properly replace Makelele and also brought in alot of mediocre players like Pablo Garcia, Graveson, Mejia etc. and had coaches like Luxemburgo and Quieroz plus other care taker managers.

If you read the previous posts carefully you will find out that we were talking about his trophyless years at Barca.

What's wrong with Helguera? He was excelent until del Bosque departure.

Now talking about the players you've mentioned. Compare Luis Enrique with Figo, Sergi with R. Carlos, Kluivert with Raul, Makelele with Guardiola. All at their prime. Who had better teammates?

Yeh i know you were. Whats your point?

Helguera worked very hard, but you can't deny that he made alot of mistakes and his positioning was very suspect.

Rivaldo played with Figo in 99-00 incase you didnt realise. Kluivert and Raul were as good as each other. Guardiola and Makelele are completely different players. So Real had a better left back (even tho Carlos cost Real the CL in 2003). I'm sure this made all the difference.

DD wrote:

bluenine wrote:

In typical dutch style, DD forgot another legend who perhaps did not score enough goals.... but is as "genuine" a legend as anyone else

Not even sure what that's supposed to imply...


I was thinking about Baggio, but decided not to include him, but perhaps he did deserve to.

Maldini I forgot completely. He is one of the greatest defenders, but look at this sentence: Maradona, Beckenbauer, Cruijff, Pele, Romario, ...Maldini?!

Face it Maldini is a tier down. No disrespect whatsoever, because he's one of my all time favourite defenders.

bluenine wrote:IMO Maldini > Romario, try and digest that if you can

bluenine wrote:Thats exactly what I was implying... you just did it again!!

In Italy, most people would rate Maldini in the same level as a Baggio or a Meazza (the greatest attacking talents)... but most dutch I know firmly believe that defenders/goalkeepers cannot be as talented as the best AM or striker!!! This is not a critique, just stating a fact.

IMO Maldini > Romario, try and digest that if you can

(coz Maldini is italian, Romario is not!).

DD wrote:

bluenine wrote:

In typical dutch style, DD forgot another legend who perhaps did not score enough goals.... but is as "genuine" a legend as anyone else

Not even sure what that's supposed to imply...


I was thinking about Baggio, but decided not to include him, but perhaps he did deserve to.

Maldini I forgot completely. He is one of the greatest defenders, but look at this sentence: Maradona, Beckenbauer, Cruijff, Pele, Romario, ...Maldini?!

Face it Maldini is a tier down. No disrespect whatsoever, because he's one of my all time favourite defenders.

DD wrote:Next thing Bluey will try to convince us that Baggio is better than Pele.

kas wrote:bluenine: Tweedle's right, you *have* to include Rivaldo. I love Baggio, but he didn't win a world cup (or was it 2) like Rivaldo has.

sheva7 wrote:

DD wrote:Next thing Bluey will try to convince us that Baggio is better than Pele.

and Cruyff. Combined.

bluenine wrote:Di Stefano, Eusebio, Cryuff, Platini, Baggio....

Kas, I think you get the point I am making... these people have some things in common:

1. None of the above won a WC
2. All 5 of them made the top 10 of the FIFA Greatest Player of the Century vote...

And Baggio is the highest WC scorer in that list!!

I can bet on it, that if people who have seen football since 1990 vote, more would say that baggio was a better player than Rivaldo. Problem is that most people on this MB started watching football in the mid-to-late 90s... they haven't seen the best of Baggio.

kas wrote:bluenine: Tweedle's right, you *have* to include Rivaldo. I love Baggio, but he didn't win a world cup (or was it 2) like Rivaldo has.