World Cup 2010 Final Spain v Netherlands

kas wrote:
It's the same with coaches and clubs' scouting departments - oh we need a DM, let's look for an African. Why do you think Barça sent a delegation to France to look for Toure's replacement?

So we're actually on the same side here...we agree that race has nothing to do with how good a DM someone is.

You're preaching to the wrong fucking crowd.

It's very simple to explain why they look at Africans or go to France to look for DMs. Just as explained above most players that fall under type 2 happen to be black or African, so it's logical they go to places where they are far more likely to find them. I mean if u are looking for malaria patients, it's logical to me u focus your search on places like Africa where you'd far more likely to find a malaria patient than somewhere like Iceland.

Do u really think if coaches or scouts found a white player that fit the type 2 profile, they'll actually say 'nah, he is the type of player we are looking for but he's not black enough'? If so, why do u think those very scouts/coaching staff at Barca have been courting Mascherano for the past 2 years?

kas wrote:
It doesn't say a lot about me, it says a lot about football fans and coaches. There's no fucking reason on this planet why Sissoko and Diarra should be playing for top clubs, but because of their physical attributes, they do. It's only gradually after watching them that people realised how poor they are as footballers, but the initial stereotype that caused them to be bought in the first place to play as a DM, does exist. That's what I and Ole are trying to point out. That it exists, not that we subscribe to it.

1) You are making it sound it's only black players who are limited on the ball play for big clubs(because they fit a particular stereotype that makes them attractive) but that's simply not true. Tell me, how has someone as limited on the ball as Gattuso spent so many years at a prestigious club like Milan? is it because he's black? Gattuso has not only had this best DM tag for years but there were number of people who were including him among the world's top 5-10 players. Also tell me has the worst player on the ball ever John fucking O'shea been part of the ManU all these years? I could go on and on........

2) Again you are trying to make it sound Diarra and Sissoko are typical of Africa midfielders, the reverse is actually true, they are the exception. Players from Africa are usually not cultured enough(except if they received their footballing education overseas) but they are mostly very competent on the ball, quite skillful actually. If anything there's this general tendency to class any midfielder from that continent as just another water carrier who is just there destroy but is not capable of anything else when in actual fact there's far more to their game than people realise; I bet if u conduct a consensus on Alex Song for example the majority would class him as a water carrier but he's actually more of a DLP, the same is true of Anthony Annan(the Ghanaian midfielder that i used to rave about) etc etc

stinger wrote:Wasn't Makelele passing really better than Busquets? He also kept things simple, usually passing to his CM, just like Busquets is doing.
Or Van Bommel, who's in different category to be honest, because he is mixing short passing with longer ones? Xabi Alonso is similar, although he was rarely doing it for Spain.

I will see how Busquets develops before I make a definitive judgement on him, but i don't agree with Shazlx on Alonso. For years i have been laughed at(not here, but i remember having this convo with Pierre this time last year) for saying his vision is way overrated but he's very very underrated defensively. He's an awesome DM in my opinion. He's very intelligent without the ball, can tackle(!) very well and plays passes that force the opposition midfield to face their goal(which is exactly what you'd like to see).

The Professor wrote:

stinger wrote:Wasn't Makelele passing really better than Busquets? He also kept things simple, usually passing to his CM, just like Busquets is doing.
Or Van Bommel, who's in different category to be honest, because he is mixing short passing with longer ones? Xabi Alonso is similar, although he was rarely doing it for Spain.

I will see how Busquets develops before I make a definitive judgement on him, but i don't agree with Shazlx on Alonso. For years i have been laughed at(not here, but i remember having this convo with Pierre this time last year) for saying his vision is way overrated but he's very very underrated defensively. He's an awesome DM in my opinion. He's very intelligent without the ball, can tackle(!) very well and plays passes that force the opposition midfield to face their goal(which is exactly what you'd like to see).

Depends how you define vision. I don't think vision is something that has been overly attributed to Alonso. He just has the ability to consistently pull off passes most players would only get right 50% of the time. Alonso's greatest asset though aside from his passing ability and positional awareness is his ability to shield the ball in possession. Only Xavi is better at this in CM in the world imo. If he gets in trouble, unlike most players he will almost always find a way to turn out of trouble.

Shazx is of course wrong on him.

The Professor wrote:

kas wrote:
It's the same with coaches and clubs' scouting departments - oh we need a DM, let's look for an African. Why do you think Barça sent a delegation to France to look for Toure's replacement?

So we're actually on the same side here...we agree that race has nothing to do with how good a DM someone is.

You're preaching to the wrong fucking crowd.

It's very simple to explain why they look at Africans or go to France to look for DMs. Just as explained above most players that fall under type 2 happen to be black or African, so it's logical they go to places where they are far more likely to find them. I mean if u are looking for malaria patients, it's logical to me u focus your search on places like Africa where you'd far more likely to find a malaria patient than somewhere like Iceland.

Do u really think if coaches or scouts found a white player that fit the type 2 profile, they'll actually say 'nah, he is the type of player we are looking for but he's not black enough'? If so, why do u think those very scouts/coaching staff at Barca have been courting Mascherano for the past 2 years?

Ok point taken...but this means the discussion evolves to "why do people prefer Type 2 DMs rather than Type 1 DMs". I think we know the answer to that (fans generally prefer players who "give it their all" and don't understand the finer points of their game), and again, we agree since you rate Gilberto and Song and Alonso, and I agree that they are all good DMs who don't have to run and foul to do their job effectively.


Re. the 2nd paragraph, that's what I'm trying to get across - that there's a stereotype that even if a white player falls into the Type 2 category, coaches/average fans are fooled into preferring a black player for the role, who may have better physical attributes.

The Professor wrote:

kas wrote:
It doesn't say a lot about me, it says a lot about football fans and coaches. There's no fucking reason on this planet why Sissoko and Diarra should be playing for top clubs, but because of their physical attributes, they do. It's only gradually after watching them that people realised how poor they are as footballers, but the initial stereotype that caused them to be bought in the first place to play as a DM, does exist. That's what I and Ole are trying to point out. That it exists, not that we subscribe to it.

1) You are making it sound it's only black players who are limited on the ball play for big clubs(because they fit a particular stereotype that makes them attractive) but that's simply not true. Tell me, how has someone as limited on the ball as Gattuso spent so many years at a prestigious club like Milan? is it because he's black? Gattuso has not only had this best DM tag for years but there were number of people who were including him among the world's top 5-10 players. Also tell me has the worst player on the ball ever John fucking O'shea been part of the ManU all these years? I could go on and on........

2) Again you are trying to make it sound Diarra and Sissoko are typical of Africa midfielders, the reverse is actually true, they are the exception. Players from Africa are usually not cultured enough(except if they received their footballing education overseas) but they are mostly very competent on the ball, quite skillful actually. If anything there's this general tendency to class any midfielder from that continent as just another water carrier who is just there destroy but is not capable of anything else when in actual fact there's far more to their game than people realise; I bet if u conduct a consensus on Alex Song for example the majority would class him as a water carrier but he's actually more of a DLP, the same is true of Anthony Annan(the Ghanaian midfielder that i used to rave about) etc etc

First off, you are taking 2 of my examples and making it sound like I measure everything in terms of Diarra or Sissoko. They were clearly examples to prove a point.

And 2nd, the bit in bold above is kind of an extension of what I originally said. People (note people, not me. That's the average football fan, pundit, coaches, scouts, the general footballing community's opinion...not me...just want to make it clear in case you get confused again like last time...not me) think "ahh he's an African midfielder, we can put him in DM".

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This discussion has started evolving into various finer branches now, away from the main point.

COTR wrote:

The Professor wrote:

stinger wrote:Wasn't Makelele passing really better than Busquets? He also kept things simple, usually passing to his CM, just like Busquets is doing.
Or Van Bommel, who's in different category to be honest, because he is mixing short passing with longer ones? Xabi Alonso is similar, although he was rarely doing it for Spain.

I will see how Busquets develops before I make a definitive judgement on him, but i don't agree with Shazlx on Alonso. For years i have been laughed at(not here, but i remember having this convo with Pierre this time last year) for saying his vision is way overrated but he's very very underrated defensively. He's an awesome DM in my opinion. He's very intelligent without the ball, can tackle(!) very well and plays passes that force the opposition midfield to face their goal(which is exactly what you'd like to see).

Depends how you define vision. I don't think vision is something that has been overly attributed to Alonso. He just has the ability to consistently pull off passes most players would only get right 50% of the time. Alonso's greatest asset though aside from his passing ability and positional awareness is his ability to shield the ball in possession. Only Xavi is better at this in CM in the world imo. If he gets in trouble, unlike most players he will almost always find a way to turn out of trouble.

Shazx is of course wrong on him.

Very underrated defensively but he doesn't get a lot of killer passes. He does have vision to make some but positionally he is often too deep to make them.

Super Madrid wrote:

COTR wrote:

The Professor wrote:

stinger wrote:Wasn't Makelele passing really better than Busquets? He also kept things simple, usually passing to his CM, just like Busquets is doing.
Or Van Bommel, who's in different category to be honest, because he is mixing short passing with longer ones? Xabi Alonso is similar, although he was rarely doing it for Spain.

I will see how Busquets develops before I make a definitive judgement on him, but i don't agree with Shazlx on Alonso. For years i have been laughed at(not here, but i remember having this convo with Pierre this time last year) for saying his vision is way overrated but he's very very underrated defensively. He's an awesome DM in my opinion. He's very intelligent without the ball, can tackle(!) very well and plays passes that force the opposition midfield to face their goal(which is exactly what you'd like to see).

Depends how you define vision. I don't think vision is something that has been overly attributed to Alonso. He just has the ability to consistently pull off passes most players would only get right 50% of the time. Alonso's greatest asset though aside from his passing ability and positional awareness is his ability to shield the ball in possession. Only Xavi is better at this in CM in the world imo. If he gets in trouble, unlike most players he will almost always find a way to turn out of trouble.

Shazx is of course wrong on him.

Very underrated defensively but he doesn't get a lot of killer passes. He does have vision to make some but positionally he is often too deep to make them.

It's not really his role as you say, he plays too deep. Pirlo doesn't make many of those passes either unless his team are really pushed up pressing for a goal.

Alonso is great for getting the ball to attacking players in advanced position and his passing is accurate enough that they don't have to worry so much about their first touch.

Super Madrid wrote:

COTR wrote:

The Professor wrote:

stinger wrote:Wasn't Makelele passing really better than Busquets? He also kept things simple, usually passing to his CM, just like Busquets is doing.
Or Van Bommel, who's in different category to be honest, because he is mixing short passing with longer ones? Xabi Alonso is similar, although he was rarely doing it for Spain.

I will see how Busquets develops before I make a definitive judgement on him, but i don't agree with Shazlx on Alonso. For years i have been laughed at(not here, but i remember having this convo with Pierre this time last year) for saying his vision is way overrated but he's very very underrated defensively. He's an awesome DM in my opinion. He's very intelligent without the ball, can tackle(!) very well and plays passes that force the opposition midfield to face their goal(which is exactly what you'd like to see).

Depends how you define vision. I don't think vision is something that has been overly attributed to Alonso. He just has the ability to consistently pull off passes most players would only get right 50% of the time. Alonso's greatest asset though aside from his passing ability and positional awareness is his ability to shield the ball in possession. Only Xavi is better at this in CM in the world imo. If he gets in trouble, unlike most players he will almost always find a way to turn out of trouble.

Shazx is of course wrong on him.

Very underrated defensively but he doesn't get a lot of killer passes. He does have vision to make some but positionally he is often too deep to make them.

I'm not talking about killer through balls. I'm talking about short midfield passes to advanced players under pressure. He can do it but he cant do it consistently when under pressure.

fcb wrote:

Re. the 2nd paragraph, that's what I'm trying to get across - that there's a stereotype that even if a white player falls into the Type 2 category, coaches/average fans are fooled into preferring a black player for the role, who may have better physical attributes.

You care to provide examples of this happening?

Liverpool bought Mascherano to replace Sissoko who was bigger, blacker and arguably stronger than the Argentine, and I can't remember any Liverpool fan or anyone in their coaching staff having problems with that. Had Sissoko been replaced by a "soft" ball playing DM(be it a black or a white player), I'm sure you'd have heard fans calling for a "Sissoko type" player after a disappointing away draw or defeat to the likes of Stoke or Blackburn.

Do u think ManU fans or anyone in their coaching staff want to trade Fletcher for a black version?

Or Do u think Milan would have done the same with Gattuso?

There are still Arsenal fans who keep calling for a Flamini type midfielder despite us having Diaby who is bigger, stronger, blacker, faster than Flamini.

It's not about race, but style of play.

So instead of saying 'You have to be black to be consisdered a great DM' , you should say 'You have to be a type 2 to be considered a great DM'.

Nothing racial about that.

fcb wrote:And 2nd, the bit in bold above is kind of an extension of what I originally said. People (note people, not me. That's the average football fan, pundit, coaches, scouts, the general footballing community's opinion...not me...just want to make it clear in case you get confused again like last time...not me) think "ahh he's an African midfielder, we can put him in DM"..

That's because people associate strengths, pace, athletism etc(qualities fans generally look for in a DM) with Africans, so they expect almost every African midfielder to have them. But If they found a white midfielder with those qualities and he's available, they wouldn't even think twice about getting him. The presence of Fletcher, Mascherano, Gattuso, Flamini etc at top clubs prove that.

COTR wrote:Catenaccio with the ball

A modern interpretation of Jose Mourinho's famous tactics, although his version produces more intent to score

More a P0-0l-esque game... loads of players on the midfield to play the save ball....

i was refering at the cotr who supports BY FAR the most boring footballing club that has ever exist...

spain is not boring except torres then of course....!