Premier League Discussion Sat 5th/Sun 6th November 2011

Noah und der Bale wrote:Dimbo, you do realise we're also unbeaten since Parker joined? Infact, we've won 7 of 8 since then

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I have always said Parker is a good player, and for years I was saying he should be in the England squad, and I was ridiculed for that! All i'm doing is letting you know Parkers place. Tiote and Cabaye, I don't need to say any more.

With Tiote and Cabaye, Newcastle have secured their midfield for next 7-8 seasons at least. Unless there's a crazy offer.

do Tiote and Cabaye both have a 7-8 year contract?

Yeah i'm not the most pessimistic out there when it comes to whether we can keep our players, but clubs WILL be interested in Cabaye, Tiote, and Krul. That said Tiote does have a 6 year contract, so i'm sure it would take alot to buy him.

I believe Man United will be heavily linked to Tiote before the season ends..I reckon they'll make a mental bid at some point.

they will both be at Spurs in 18 months and Dimbo will be sneering at them every time they're rotated.

Kimbo wrote:

Noah und der Bale wrote:Dimbo, you do realise we're also unbeaten since Parker joined? Infact, we've won 7 of 8 since then

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I have always said Parker is a good player, and for years I was saying he should be in the England squad, and I was ridiculed for that! All i'm doing is letting you know Parkers place. Tiote and Cabaye, I don't need to say any more.

Parker's place?? Am I missing something here? You saying Cabaye and Tiote is a better pair than Parker and Modric? I don't want to get into a dick swinging contest but I said from the very beginning that with Parker, Modric, Huddlestone, Sandro, Kranjcar, Lennon, Bale we have one of the strongest midfields in England and 7 wins in 8 is beginning to prove it. I've also agreed Newcastle are strong in this department but squad depth will be your undoing if you start picking up injuries. Can you put your willy away now please. Thanks

christmasborocooper wrote:I believe Man United will be heavily linked to Tiote before the season ends..I reckon they'll make a mental bid at some point.

They can fuck off. He would be perfect for them though.

Noah und der Bale wrote:
Parker's place?? Am I missing something here? You saying Cabaye and Tiote is a better pair than Parker and Modric? I don't want to get into a dick swinging contest but I said from the very beginning that with Parker, Modric, Huddlestone, Sandro, Kranjcar, Lennon, Bale we have one of the strongest midfields in England and 7 wins in 8 is beginning to prove it. I've also agreed Newcastle are strong in this department but squad depth will be your undoing if you start picking up injuries. Can you put your willy away now please. Thanks

Modric is the most proven of the 4, why he is being brought into it I don't know. Parker would rank 4th out of the 4, clearly.

Noah und der Bale wrote:

Kimbo wrote:

Noah und der Bale wrote:Dimbo, you do realise we're also unbeaten since Parker joined? Infact, we've won 7 of 8 since then

~

I have always said Parker is a good player, and for years I was saying he should be in the England squad, and I was ridiculed for that! All i'm doing is letting you know Parkers place. Tiote and Cabaye, I don't need to say any more.

Parker's place?? Am I missing something here? You saying Cabaye and Tiote is a better pair than Parker and Modric? I don't want to get into a dick swinging contest but I said from the very beginning that with Parker, Modric, Huddlestone, Sandro, Kranjcar, Lennon, Bale we have one of the strongest midfields in England and 7 wins in 8 is beginning to prove it. I've also agreed Newcastle are strong in this department but squad depth will be your undoing if you start picking up injuries. Can you put your willy away now please. Thanks

The same midfield that got easily overrun in two london derbies.

I suggested Tiote to a Man United fan just the other day and was told there are plenty of better options out there. One of which was De Jong.


I'd like your thoughts on that Kimbo.

christmasborocooper wrote:I suggested Tiote to a Man United fan just the other day and was told there are plenty of better options out there. One of which was De Jong.


I'd like your thoughts on that Kimbo.

Most fans don't know shit about football. I was just saying the other day in the Spurs thread that Liverpool were being linked to Coloccini, and their fans were saying they don't need bench players, not good enough etc. I know Man Utd fans have a phrase that goes "not United quality", i've never really worked out what this means.

That aside, De Jong isn't an option for them, and I wouldn't swap Cheick for that wannabe toughman.

What do you think Given does wrong for Pilkington's goal, stinger? Perhaps this only reveals that I was clueless when defending Given during debates we held a few years ago, but I didn't see a fundamental error in his positioning for the free-kick.

I think it is arguable that, perhaps after Manchester City, Tottenham and Newcastle have the two best central midfield partnerships in the Premier League. Manchester City's midfield changes about a bit and has a different shape with Silva playing in the hole, but de Jong and Toure make for a strong pair; however though I'm not too disparaging of, say, Anderson and Cleverley, or of combinations of Mikel, Ramires and Meireles, or of Song, Ramsey and Arteta, I'm certainly happy with our set of central midfielders in comparison.

That said, I think both Cabaye and Tiote could improve on aspects of their games. I think both are excellent players, better central midfielders than we have had in many years, players worthy of a team towards the top of the league. I'm generally pretty content with Cabaye, but would perhaps like to see him on the ball more in some matches. Tiote started the season poorly but quickly found his usual level and he has been playing well, but I think he could use the ball more concisely sometimes - he does have a tendency to overplay - and he also still needs to learn to make a clever foul. I think in these respects, Parker betters him, so that whilst Tiote is stronger physically and has better feet, I'm not sure he's a better player at the moment. That is partly owing to the fact that Parker is playing so well. I was a little indifferent to him at Newcastle at a time when opinion on him was polarised, between those who felt he was a worthy captain and those who disliked him and felt he turned on the ball too much, slowing our play; I didn't dislike him, I thought he was a good player, but thought he charged about too much. Perhaps he's able, at Tottenham, to simply focus on one sort of role and is thriving because of it.

Bashmachkin wrote:What do you think Given does wrong for Pilkington's goal, stinger? Perhaps this only reveals that I was clueless when defending Given during debates we held a few years ago, but I didn't see a fundamental error in his positioning for the free-kick.

It was his corner. I would even understand if he would try anticipating Pilkington shot going over the wall, but not - he was still waiting his corner, ball was there and he was still too short to save it. Also a little bit too late with his reaction for my taste. It was a nice shot, but if keeper of teams I am supporting would concede it this way, I would be disappointed every time.

Bashmachkin wrote:What do you think Given does wrong for Pilkington's goal, stinger? Perhaps this only reveals that I was clueless when defending Given during debates we held a few years ago, but I didn't see a fundamental error in his positioning for the free-kick.

I think it is arguable that, perhaps after Manchester City, Tottenham and Newcastle have the two best central midfield partnerships in the Premier League. Manchester City's midfield changes about a bit and has a different shape with Silva playing in the hole, but de Jong and Toure make for a strong pair; however though I'm not too disparaging of, say, Anderson and Cleverley, or of combinations of Mikel, Ramires and Meireles, or of Song, Ramsey and Arteta, I'm certainly happy with our set of central midfielders in comparison.

That said, I think both Cabaye and Tiote could improve on aspects of their games. I think both are excellent players, better central midfielders than we have had in many years, players worthy of a team towards the top of the league. I'm generally pretty content with Cabaye, but would perhaps like to see him on the ball more in some matches. Tiote started the season poorly but quickly found his usual level and he has been playing well, but I think he could use the ball more concisely sometimes - he does have a tendency to overplay - and he also still needs to learn to make a clever foul. I think in these respects, Parker betters him, so that whilst Tiote is stronger physically and has better feet, I'm not sure he's a better player at the moment. That is partly owing to the fact that Parker is playing so well. I was a little indifferent to him at Newcastle at a time when opinion on him was polarised, between those who felt he was a worthy captain and those who disliked him and felt he turned on the ball too much, slowing our play; I didn't dislike him, I thought he was a good player, but thought he charged about too much. Perhaps he's able, at Tottenham, to simply focus on one sort of role and is thriving because of it.

I don't want to comment on who is better - Tiote is a very good player, but right now there is no reason why I would want to swap Parker for anyone. Yes, against Arsenal and Fulham (2nd half) we were overrun at times in central midfield, but the fact is 'Arry sets us up tactically as an attacking team first and foremost, and at times this season we've relied on him almost single handedly having to shore up an over-committed midfield / front line. He's been remarkably good at it. He's got easily the hardest job at Spurs.

IMO, Parker's clearly continually improved with age, like a white Makelele with a side parting: he now know exactly what is required of him, where he needs to be, what he needs to do. His ball retention is remarkably high because he can pass but rarely over does it.

Once he retires, who knows, maybe we can sign Tiote if Sandro moves or fails to live up to his reputation

stinger wrote:

Bashmachkin wrote:What do you think Given does wrong for Pilkington's goal, stinger? Perhaps this only reveals that I was clueless when defending Given during debates we held a few years ago, but I didn't see a fundamental error in his positioning for the free-kick.

It was his corner. I would even understand if he would try anticipating Pilkington shot going over the wall, but not - he was still waiting his corner, ball was there and he was still too short to save it. Also a little bit too late with his reaction for my taste. It was a nice shot, but if keeper of teams I am supporting would concede it this way, I would be disappointed every time.

Yeah, I know what you mean, it did look saveable. But I think he did make a slight move to the right just before/as it was taken, which is probably what did for him. Watch replay here @ about 5 secs:

http://www.101greatgoals.com/videodisplay/aston-villa-norwich-%281st-half%29-15651882/

he makes a slight hop to the right, moved about as much as he missed it by in the other direction. Little things.. Generally Given's been very good though, been our best summer buy & a smooth changeover from Friedel.

Tiote-Cabaye were excellent in a 4-4-2 vs Livermore-Parker-Modric in 4-3-3

That speaks volumes about their ability.

OTOH, Spurs have run their luck in a 4-4-2 with Parker-Modric throughout.

When Pardew stops being a tit and plays Ben Arfa in front of Tiote-Cabaye, it'd be insurmountable IMO.

Fade out wrote:Tiote-Cabaye were excellent in a 4-4-2 vs Livermore-Parker-Modric in 4-3-3

That speaks volumes about their ability.

OTOH, Spurs have run their luck in a 4-4-2 with Parker-Modric throughout.

When Pardew stops being a tit and plays Ben Arfa in front of Tiote-Cabaye, it'd be insurmountable IMO.

Run our luck? Oh shut up I get it, Newcastle's Frenchies give you a hard on. But we haven't taken 22 points from the last 24 merely based on luck ('Arry's new catchphrase: 7 wins in 8 Games). We've had some fortune, sure. But so have Newcastle - their midfield go overrun at Loftus Road against QPR, and they were lucky to get a win at home against Wigan, and against Everton they also had a hand ball blatantly missed which would have turned the game. Good teams tend to get away with playing badly and still getting results. This Spurs implosion you keep banging on about is so 2006.

And that game game against Newcastle, we didn't play a 4-3-3, we played a 4-2-3-1, with only Parker and Livermore holding in the centre. Newcastle's main threat came down the flanks, not through the middle. So how that amounts to proof that Tiote and Cabaye are better than Parker and Modric I will let you explain

In other news, anyone else going to the England V Spain friendly? Word is Spain are playing their strongest team whilst Capello will be experimenting. I predict a blood bath

Fade out wrote:Tiote-Cabaye were excellent in a 4-4-2 vs Livermore-Parker-Modric in 4-3-3

That speaks volumes about their ability.

OTOH, Spurs have run their luck in a 4-4-2 with Parker-Modric throughout.

When Pardew stops being a tit and plays Ben Arfa in front of Tiote-Cabaye, it'd be insurmountable IMO.

Looks like 2v2 in CM to me there... Also Newcastle have Jonas who is as good as any winger when it comes to defensive work.

I thought it was a very even game personally (55-45 possession, 14-13 in shots). And we should've won but for terrible decision making by our attackers.

Let's stick to midfield, shall we?

vs QPR - point taken. But if that was being 'overrun', then what would you call some of the displays put by Spurs midfield?

vs Wigan - lucky in that Wgan missed chances, but solid midfield display. Cabaye showed his class. Tiote was otherworldly making up for lack of tracking back by wingers.

vs Everton - Tiote missed the game. Cabaye played for half hour and Newcastle dominated for that duration with 2 goals. After his substitution, the match changed. Isn't that enough evidence to prove his worth?

What is 4-2-3-1 but a variation of 4-3-3 with a MF advanced to attack but drops back for defending. Cabaye-Tiote were able to tackle a more centrally inclined Spurs side (Vdv's perennial approach to cut inside and of course, Modric with Parker and Livermore). Cabaye and Tiote controlled possession and were able to channel it wide with precision.

@Kimbo/Borocooper: personally, I don't think Tiote would be a good purchase for Man. Utd. His tackling works in the Premier League (just about, considering how many yellows he picks up) but is far too "enthusiastic" for Europe (which is only 10-12 games, but nevertheless a key factor that clubs like Man. Utd. need to keep in mind).

I also don't think his passing is that great. 6/10 - can make simple passes, but is prone to the occasional crazy one. And not very good at creative passes. But that style worked for Makelele, so the question is whether Man. Utd. can sustain having someone who's mainly a destroyer in their midfield and doesn't do any creative work...if they continue with their default 4-4-2, I don't think so.

What he is undoubdtedly brilliant at though, is his positioning. Always knows how to cover the gaps when his teammates have pushed forward.

I think the future of Man United is a 4-3-3 or 4-5-1

Along the lines of:

A) Wellbeck-------Hernandez--

-----------Rooney-----------

--Cleveley==Tiote-Another--


OR

B) ---------Hernandez--------

--------Rooney-----------

Young----Cleverly-----Nani--

------Tiote---Another------


Same sort of styles as Man City flit between.

Tiote's tackling isn't that bad, I actually disagree with Bash's comment that he doesn't foul smart, I think his bookings tend to come when we are stretched and being hit on the counterattack, he accidentally catches someone "late" and people say he is clumsy or dirty, actually that probably does count as dirty, but good dirty!

Noah und der Bale wrote:Everton they also had a hand ball blatantly missed which would have turned the game.

Piss orrrf! We had penalty shouts of our own, but the London media doesn't care about that!

Yes, I don't think Tiote is a dirty tackler in the sense of being particularly reckless or dangerous, and he does pick up a number of his bookings making what may be deemed sensible fouls when the opposition are on the counter-attack. My problem is more that I'd like to see him get away with some of these fouls too - I think he sometimes makes the fact that he's deliberately interrupting a counter-attack absolutely obvious, and tends to pick up cards after one or two fouls, whereas I'd like to see him get away with three or four before being booked. Players at clubs like Manchester United and Liverpool seem to have been able to achieve this for years now. Perhaps I'm entirely wrong, but my perception is that Tiote often picks up early bookings, and after a small number of infringements.