Anti-Hooliganism Laws in Italy

Legislation was passed in Italy (permanent) this month. It involves punishment for clubs keeping links with Ultras, prison sentences for use of flares to get matches halted and free entry for children.

http://www.uefa.com/footballeurope/news/kind=2/newsid=523037.html

Do you think this can work? What more would you want to see done?

Obviously there are many more measures that need to be taken, but this is a positive starting step. The key now is enforcement of these laws.

some good things but it means little untill they actually use them effective.

Will people stick to these laws? remains to be seen

Time will tell (obviously).

Free entry for kids > .

The bigger problem is getting the evidence. People fear the thuggish ultras (I say that to distinguish them from passionate supporters who are ultras but not thugs). Unless there is support and protection for witnesses if necessary people won't come forward. I think they will have to try to enforce this as they will have no credibility if they don't. They should also crack down on any attempt to make scum martyrs. Some members of Bastion 1903 (neo-nazi ultras of Atletico de Madrid) had banners calling for the release of Ricardo Guerra last season. Absolutely disgraceful. For those who don't know Guerra is serving a sentence for the murder of Real Sociedad fan Aitor Zabaleta near to the Vicente Calderon a few years ago. Will be interesting to see if that type of conduct is interpreted as inciting violence. Also need tough policies throughout Europe - the world acrually.

Kaká wrote:Time will tell (obviously).

Free entry for kids > .

How does this improve hooliganism though?

@ Luis. Free entry for kids encourages a family atmosphere at the matches. They hope that doing so will appeal to ordinary people. It is meant to happen in tandem with the tough stance against hooliganism and generate interest in football for younger people which appears to have fallen off a bit, partly due to hooliganism.

Problem in Italy is not legislation but enforcement. Drink driving laws have been in effect for years, but people still drink and drive regularly.

It is a good positive step though there needs to be more done, e.g. although they now say they will prosecute fans involved with violence it doesn't say that these fans will be banned from attending matches in the future, so these guy could spend 6 months in prison then be back in the stadium which is just stupid.

Also the banning the block sale of tickets to away fans is strange as most tickets on the black market are in the home section (whihc is far larger) and it looks like this will continue.

They should pass the law here as well so Madrid can get done for having links with their ultras

110% wrote:Problem in Italy is not legislation but enforcement. Drink driving laws have been in effect for years, but people still drink and drive regularly.

It is a good positive step though there needs to be more done, e.g. although they now say they will prosecute fans involved with violence it doesn't say that these fans will be banned from attending matches in the future, so these guy could spend 6 months in prison then be back in the stadium which is just stupid.

Also the banning the block sale of tickets to away fans is strange as most tickets on the black market are in the home section (whihc is far larger) and it looks like this will continue.

what other laws would you suggest they make? it seems to be a good starting point but like you said rules is one thing and actually keeping them is another.

There is greater co-operation between police forces in Europe and Uefa now, although recent events show that there is still a very long way to go. I would think that such measures will be introduced in other countries by Uefa and Fifa in due course, but it needs to be thought through properly. We don't want unenforceable legislation or flawed ones like the change to Article 55. They need to take the time to get it right rather than react to tragedy as that almost always produces bad legislation. As I said before laws are not much use if you can't get witnesses to come forward. I would think banning orders will follow any conviction. In Scotland they ban first and say they will review it if the person is acquitted in court.

@ Cule. Didn't the Spanish Sports Minister recently announce a tough policy against the ultras? It happened as a result of reflection after the events in Catania. Has anybody heard about this. It was reported in the Guardian I think.

cule wrote:They should pass the law here as well so Madrid can get done for having links with their ultras

Then Pedja will go around complaining to the press "Estan pasando cosas raras"

supermadrid(zizou legend) wrote:

110% wrote:Problem in Italy is not legislation but enforcement. Drink driving laws have been in effect for years, but people still drink and drive regularly.

It is a good positive step though there needs to be more done, e.g. although they now say they will prosecute fans involved with violence it doesn't say that these fans will be banned from attending matches in the future, so these guy could spend 6 months in prison then be back in the stadium which is just stupid.

Also the banning the block sale of tickets to away fans is strange as most tickets on the black market are in the home section (whihc is far larger) and it looks like this will continue.

what other laws would you suggest they make? it seems to be a good starting point but like you said rules is one thing and actually keeping them is another.

- the ticket rules are just stupid here if they even exist, the ticket touts come up to you in the queue for the ticket office!!! It is difficult to get tickets for the big games because the touts buy them in blocks and then sell them on to you at a profit. Everyone should be limited to buying a max of 4 each or something.
- being coloured I always get searched going into the san siro, as do most foreign fans, the ultras hardly ever get searched and have their flares etc, even the away fans from around italy are treated like that
- the girls handbags are mostly not searched as well, so that is another way to get stuff in, as well as stewards bringing stuff in for the ultras
- the stewards should be trained professionals, at the moment looks like it's someone's family from the grandchildren to the grandparents

At the moment there is nothing being said about banning orders for people who are caught and prosecuted, so I have a feeling that this might be a future step, but should go further:
- banning people involved in any kind of violent crime from football, the ultras are connected with gang crime, drug dealing etc
- I'd even consider banning for life

cule wrote:They should pass the law here as well so Madrid can get done for having links with their ultras

Then no one would show up at RM games

110% wrote:

supermadrid(zizou legend) wrote:

110% wrote:Problem in Italy is not legislation but enforcement. Drink driving laws have been in effect for years, but people still drink and drive regularly.

It is a good positive step though there needs to be more done, e.g. although they now say they will prosecute fans involved with violence it doesn't say that these fans will be banned from attending matches in the future, so these guy could spend 6 months in prison then be back in the stadium which is just stupid.

Also the banning the block sale of tickets to away fans is strange as most tickets on the black market are in the home section (whihc is far larger) and it looks like this will continue.

what other laws would you suggest they make? it seems to be a good starting point but like you said rules is one thing and actually keeping them is another.

- the ticket rules are just stupid here if they even exist, the ticket touts come up to you in the queue for the ticket office!!! It is difficult to get tickets for the big games because the touts buy them in blocks and then sell them on to you at a profit. Everyone should be limited to buying a max of 4 each or something.
- being coloured I always get searched going into the san siro, as do most foreign fans, the ultras hardly ever get searched and have their flares etc, even the away fans from around italy are treated like that
- the girls handbags are mostly not searched as well, so that is another way to get stuff in, as well as stewards bringing stuff in for the ultras
- the stewards should be trained professionals, at the moment looks like it's someone's family from the grandchildren to the grandparents

At the moment there is nothing being said about banning orders for people who are caught and prosecuted, so I have a feeling that this might be a future step, but should go further:
- banning people involved in any kind of violent crime from football, the ultras are connected with gang crime, drug dealing etc
- I'd even consider banning for life

It has taken a long time but the authorities have realised the danger that the ultras - criminal elements - pose. There will be greater co-operation between police forces throughout Europe and greater sharing of intelligence. The main problem is that football authorities, police and government need to be acting togeteher to devise and enact no-nonsense measures. Lissavetzky's inititiative is a step in thhe right direction, but it needs legislation and no initiative or legislation can work without ensuring the safety of those courageous enough to take on the thugs. Banning orders in Scotland are up to ten years, but it has only just happened. Posters about this were on display in Saint Mirren's ground. It will take time to get through to some people, but is long overdue.

Touting should be a criminal offence and enforced. It is impossible to prevent trouble while touting goes on as it means anyone can get tickets to wherever they want to go in the ground. Should require ID to buy tickets and your name should be on the ticket. You should have to prove your identity to get in. If buying more tickets you should have to nominate the names to go on the tickets. Without ID they don't get in.

Having names put on individual tickets etc is logistically a nightmare, e.g. for when buying outside the ground at the ticket office, for the checking with the id etc.

Even something simple like not being able to buy more than 4 on your own id would be a great start.

Additionally italy do not have a database of hooligan names yet, and will take years to build so putting names on tickets does not help this.