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SuperMario
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bluenine
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    Poaching kids before they can sign contracts

    bluenine
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    Post by bluenine Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:52 pm

    This has got to stop, UEFA must do something about this. If something is not done, the clubs who have been the grooming schools of talent for decades will go out of business. Clubs like Atalanta, Parma, etc - this is how they make their money, by investing in youth, developing talent, and then once they become stars, selling them.

    What the english clubs are doing is stealing this talent before they can legally sign contracts in Italy. They are going to end up killing the golden goose.

    Oh Wenger, what the f@ck have you started!!!

    Chelsea To Poach Giovinco’s Brother From Juve?
    According to reports in Italy, Chelsea are looking to poach the younger brother of Sebastian Giovinco from Juventus, before he signs a professional contract with the club. Giovinco Sr is currently regarded as one of the most explosive talents in the whole of Europe, however few know that he has a very talented younger brother.

    Giuseppe Giovinco plays for the Juventus Berretti squad, which consists of players under the age of 19. The 17-year-old plays in the same creative position as his elder sibling, although he is said to be more physical, and ever so slightly taller. Chelsea are said to be impressed by Giovinco Jr’s talent, and are looking to poach him from Juventus, before he signs his first professional contract.

    "So far I have not received offers,” said Giuseppe’s agent Andrea D’Amico. “However I am not surprised if Giuseppe has been followed by Chelsea and other English clubs as they observe in a systematic manner all the youth leagues of our country.”

    There has been an escalating row building in recent months between Serie A and the Premiership, with a number of Italian clubs accusing English teams of “stealing” their young players before they sign a professional contract. Reggina’s 15-year-old prospect Vincenzo Camilleri was snapped up by Chelsea in February, Atalanta’s teenage talent Fabio Zamblera by Newcastle Utd, while a few years back Parma-duo Giuseppe Rossi and Arturo Lupoli were signed by Man Utd and Arsenal respectively.

    This all led to Palermo President Maurizio Zamaparini famously labelling English clubs earlier this month as “pirates”.
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    Glenarch of the Glen


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    Post by Glenarch of the Glen Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:02 pm

    ok

    It's impossible to police now though, bring in rules that 75% of your youth team have to have been born in the local hospital? Once a player gets in to an academy he becomes the property of the club until he's 21?

    Unless a player is really special, ie Rooney, Cesc, Owen etc I really don't see the point of picking up these kids so young. You get more real life experience working your way through the ranks than you do being the understudy for the understudy for the understudy of the understudy.
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    Oleguerisntthatbad


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    Post by Oleguerisntthatbad Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:04 pm

    Italy and Spain should just change our legislation allowing us to give the youngsters a pro contract, because the English aren't going to stop and they are not going to change their laws either..

    It is a bad solution to the problem, but the only one that will work realistically.
    Kimbo
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    Post by Kimbo Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:06 pm

    Oleguerisntthatbad wrote:Italy and Spain should just change our legislation allowing us to give the youngsters a pro contract, because the English aren't going to stop and they are not going to change their laws either..

    It is a bad solution to the problem, but the only one that will work realistically.

    They should do the same in Argentina to stop clubs like Barca stealing players like Messi. <Ale>
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    Oleguerisntthatbad


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    Post by Oleguerisntthatbad Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:07 pm

    Messi didn't have a club Doh
    Since 1888
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    Post by Since 1888 Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:08 pm

    Ooh how sad for Juventus.

    What really is the problem is when clubs sign from poorer clubs...(like Sparta)

    Our keeper for the U16 squad of Oranje has gone to Ajax.
    Our left back for the U16 squad of Oranje has gone to AZ.
    Feyenoord stole Wijnaldum from us.

    Wijnaldum brothers are scum. Ale

    Juventus has about 50M to cover for this loss.
    Kimbo
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    Post by Kimbo Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:10 pm

    Oleguerisntthatbad wrote:Messi didn't have a club Doh

    Yes he did. Doh
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    Post by Glenarch of the Glen Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:11 pm

    Oleguerisntthatbad wrote:Messi didn't have a club Doh

    Poaching kids before they can sign contracts 120px-NewellsOldBoys
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    Post by Jaime Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:11 pm

    I am definitely against poaching but it happens everywhere. It's not just the English and it's not a new thing. I remember back in the mid 90s when Parma grabbed up this Colombian kid Montano, meant to be the next Asprilla, when he was just 15 or something ridiculous.
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    Oleguerisntthatbad


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    Post by Oleguerisntthatbad Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:11 pm

    Kimbo wrote:
    Oleguerisntthatbad wrote:Messi didn't have a club Doh

    Yes he did. Doh

    Newell's didn't want to pay for his treatment and let him go Doh Wink
    Kimbo
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    Post by Kimbo Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:13 pm

    Oleguerisntthatbad wrote:
    Kimbo wrote:
    Oleguerisntthatbad wrote:Messi didn't have a club Doh

    Yes he did. Doh

    Newell's didn't want to pay for his treatment and let him go Doh Wink

    What about Dos Santos then? Is it ok to steal from non-european clubs?

    I agree with the jist of the thread, but fans of G14 clubs whinging takes the piss a bit.
    Since 1888
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    Post by Since 1888 Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:13 pm

    To Kimbo. Ale
    The Easter Bunny
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    Post by The Easter Bunny Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:15 pm

    If it wasn't for Barca, Messi wouldn't be playing now. They paided(sp) for his growth development treatment.

    TBH all of this is down to the player, if he is stupid enough to leave his own club where he is likely to get a chance to play Snr football, or joins Chelsea, leaves when he is 18-22 playing for some shitty little team.
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    Post by Oleguerisntthatbad Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:16 pm

    Kimbo wrote:
    Oleguerisntthatbad wrote:
    Kimbo wrote:
    Oleguerisntthatbad wrote:Messi didn't have a club Doh

    Yes he did. Doh

    Newell's didn't want to pay for his treatment and let him go Doh Wink

    What about Dos Santos then? Is it ok to steal from non-european clubs?

    I agree with the jist of the thread, but fans of G14 clubs whinging takes the piss a bit.

    Dos Santos was definitely a poach.. albeit that his old club "more or less" accepted it Wink

    But I think there is a HUGE difference from poaching 16-17 year olds that have gone through most of the basic training somewhere else to poaching 12-13 year olds for a very select few spots at a top notch youth academy. La Masía only has about 30-40 spots for full timers so it is hardly just poaching anybody and hoping it turns out well. We are investing a lot in trying to develop their talent.
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    Post by Oleguerisntthatbad Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:18 pm

    Kimbo wrote:
    Oleguerisntthatbad wrote:
    Kimbo wrote:
    Oleguerisntthatbad wrote:Messi didn't have a club Doh

    Yes he did. Doh

    Newell's didn't want to pay for his treatment and let him go Doh Wink

    What about Dos Santos then? Is it ok to steal from non-european clubs?

    I agree with the jist of the thread, but fans of G14 clubs whinging takes the piss a bit.

    If you were in la liga you would have the 3rd biggest budget so don't try to play the little victim here Wink

    That is more Since 1888's right
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    Post by Kimbo Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:20 pm

    Oleguerisntthatbad wrote:
    Kimbo wrote:
    Oleguerisntthatbad wrote:
    Kimbo wrote:
    Oleguerisntthatbad wrote:Messi didn't have a club Doh

    Yes he did. Doh

    Newell's didn't want to pay for his treatment and let him go Doh Wink

    What about Dos Santos then? Is it ok to steal from non-european clubs?

    I agree with the jist of the thread, but fans of G14 clubs whinging takes the piss a bit.

    If you were in la liga you would have the 3rd biggest budget so don't try to play the little victim here Wink

    That is more Since 1888's right

    It's not me playing the victim. We've indulged in some poaching in the last couple of years, i admit that.
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    Post by S4P Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:20 pm

    Juventus should be able to compete if they really want to keep him. It's not as though we're trying to take him from Siena.
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    Post by Glenarch of the Glen Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:20 pm

    maybe a limit on the number of players of a certain age range an academy can sign, a further limit on the number of foreign players and a limit on the number of non EU players. So in your U16's Chelsea are allowed 20 British players and 3 overseas players a maximum of 1 can be non-EU. Under-18's max of 5 overseas, 2 of which can be non EU. Or something along those lines. Put an obligatory 25% sell on clause for any players 'poached' or some kind of testimonial if the player is a success.
    Isco Benny
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    Post by Isco Benny Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:22 pm

    bluenine wrote:This has got to stop, UEFA must do something about this. If something is not done, the clubs who have been the grooming schools of talent for decades will go out of business. Clubs like Atalanta, Parma, etc - this is how they make their money, by investing in youth, developing talent, and then once they become stars, selling them.

    What the english clubs are doing is stealing this talent before they can legally sign contracts in Italy. They are going to end up killing the golden goose.

    Oh Wenger, what the f@ck have you started!!!

    Chelsea To Poach Giovinco’s Brother From Juve?
    According to reports in Italy, Chelsea are looking to poach the younger brother of Sebastian Giovinco from Juventus, before he signs a professional contract with the club. Giovinco Sr is currently regarded as one of the most explosive talents in the whole of Europe, however few know that he has a very talented younger brother.

    Giuseppe Giovinco plays for the Juventus Berretti squad, which consists of players under the age of 19. The 17-year-old plays in the same creative position as his elder sibling, although he is said to be more physical, and ever so slightly taller. Chelsea are said to be impressed by Giovinco Jr’s talent, and are looking to poach him from Juventus, before he signs his first professional contract.

    "So far I have not received offers,” said Giuseppe’s agent Andrea D’Amico. “However I am not surprised if Giuseppe has been followed by Chelsea and other English clubs as they observe in a systematic manner all the youth leagues of our country.”

    There has been an escalating row building in recent months between Serie A and the Premiership, with a number of Italian clubs accusing English teams of “stealing” their young players before they sign a professional contract. Reggina’s 15-year-old prospect Vincenzo Camilleri was snapped up by Chelsea in February, Atalanta’s teenage talent Fabio Zamblera by Newcastle Utd, while a few years back Parma-duo Giuseppe Rossi and Arturo Lupoli were signed by Man Utd and Arsenal respectively.

    This all led to Palermo President Maurizio Zamaparini famously labelling English clubs earlier this month as “pirates”.

    Actually, blame the English FA :

    they introduced a rule back in 1998 which means that English clubs can only develop youth team players who live within 2 hours of the club nationally (everywhere else in Europe I believe there is no such law),

    this means that instead of being able to search for talent nationwide, the big clubs can only count on a very small geographical pool,

    so the step has been for the big clubs to exploit a loop in the law which means they can poach kids from abroad and move them within 2 hours of the training ground and declare them as "local" youth team products.

    What initially was supposed to be a law which diversified the young talent nationally and allowed smaller clubs to hold onto their brightest stars and then make money through big fees later on (a la Theo Walcott or Wayne Rooney) now means the top clubs in England are poaching cheaper talent from abroad and filling their youth sides up with them.

    Another excellent scheme by the FA
    Since 1888
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    Post by Since 1888 Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:22 pm

    Sparta has a budget of 9.9M a year. Older Wijnaldum, stoled by Feyenoord. Younger Wijnaldum, stoled by AZ. Hahn (Arsenal were interested) stoled by Ajax.

    All by clubs who have more than 2 times our budget. Pisses me off since Sparta really pays a lot of money for our youth development and we have one of the better youth teams in the Netherlands.

    Grr
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    Post by SuperMario Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:22 pm

    If it was up to me players shouldn't be transfered before they're 18. But there should be a few exceptions. Say players from 'non-footballing' nations like Canada. Think De Guzman would have been half as good if he wouldn't have moved to Holland age 18. If the home-FA agrees could be a clause.

    Would also like the part of transferfees, which go to the club(s), which educated the player, to go up significantly. Even when Sparta -which I think they should- could have at least have their homegrown talents until they're 18, still at some point they'll be sold and Sparta will get too little money of futture deals.


    Last edited by De Guzman on Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Since 1888
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    Post by Since 1888 Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:24 pm

    What about you c**ts stealing Wijnaldum. An outrage!
    TM
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    Post by TM Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:24 pm

    Pre Professional Contract Deal?

    That guareentes that the player wil stay with them atleast for one season when they turn pro.

    It's a bit unfair these teams do all the hard work and money in developing talent, and other clubs just poach them.


    Last edited by TM on Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Oleguerisntthatbad


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    Post by Oleguerisntthatbad Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:24 pm

    Senor Woody wrote:
    bluenine wrote:This has got to stop, UEFA must do something about this. If something is not done, the clubs who have been the grooming schools of talent for decades will go out of business. Clubs like Atalanta, Parma, etc - this is how they make their money, by investing in youth, developing talent, and then once they become stars, selling them.

    What the english clubs are doing is stealing this talent before they can legally sign contracts in Italy. They are going to end up killing the golden goose.

    Oh Wenger, what the f@ck have you started!!!

    Chelsea To Poach Giovinco’s Brother From Juve?
    According to reports in Italy, Chelsea are looking to poach the younger brother of Sebastian Giovinco from Juventus, before he signs a professional contract with the club. Giovinco Sr is currently regarded as one of the most explosive talents in the whole of Europe, however few know that he has a very talented younger brother.

    Giuseppe Giovinco plays for the Juventus Berretti squad, which consists of players under the age of 19. The 17-year-old plays in the same creative position as his elder sibling, although he is said to be more physical, and ever so slightly taller. Chelsea are said to be impressed by Giovinco Jr’s talent, and are looking to poach him from Juventus, before he signs his first professional contract.

    "So far I have not received offers,” said Giuseppe’s agent Andrea D’Amico. “However I am not surprised if Giuseppe has been followed by Chelsea and other English clubs as they observe in a systematic manner all the youth leagues of our country.”

    There has been an escalating row building in recent months between Serie A and the Premiership, with a number of Italian clubs accusing English teams of “stealing” their young players before they sign a professional contract. Reggina’s 15-year-old prospect Vincenzo Camilleri was snapped up by Chelsea in February, Atalanta’s teenage talent Fabio Zamblera by Newcastle Utd, while a few years back Parma-duo Giuseppe Rossi and Arturo Lupoli were signed by Man Utd and Arsenal respectively.

    This all led to Palermo President Maurizio Zamaparini famously labelling English clubs earlier this month as “pirates”.

    Actually, blame the English FA :

    they introduced a rule back in 1998 which means that English clubs can only develop youth team players who live within 2 hours of the club nationally (everywhere else in Europe I believe there is no such law),

    this means that instead of being able to search for talent nationwide, the big clubs can only count on a very small geographical pool,

    so the step has been for the big clubs to exploit a loop in the law which means they can poach kids from abroad and move them within 2 hours of the training ground and declare them as "local" youth team products.

    What initially was supposed to be a law which diversified the young talent nationally and allowed smaller clubs to hold onto their brightest stars and then make money through big fees later on (a la Theo Walcott or Wayne Rooney) now means the top clubs in England are poaching cheaper talent from abroad and filling their youth sides up with them.

    Another excellent scheme by the FA

    Yeah Arsenal only has the Greater London area to search in.. Hardly any youths there at all Laughing
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    Post by Yef Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:25 pm

    Well same reason as De Guzman's transfer, he had no future at a non-footballing club like Sparta. It was for HIS future not for ours, we saved him kinda.
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    Post by Glenarch of the Glen Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:26 pm

    Senor Woody wrote:

    Actually, blame the English FA :

    they introduced a rule back in 1998 which means that English clubs can only develop youth team players who live within 2 hours of the club nationally

    2 hours? Is that on foot? By helicopter? It's a bit vague!
    TM
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    Post by TM Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:27 pm

    Glenn Hysén wrote:
    Senor Woody wrote:

    Actually, blame the English FA :

    they introduced a rule back in 1998 which means that English clubs can only develop youth team players who live within 2 hours of the club nationally

    2 hours? Is that on foot? By helicopter? It's a bit vague!

    Concorde!
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    Post by SuperMario Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:27 pm

    Since 1888 wrote:What about you c**ts stealing Wijnaldum. An outrage!
    [Play sample]: already said a few times I do not agree with what we did. (and in the post above yours I say agian I'm against signing players under 18 )

    what do you want, the queen to apologise?
    Since 1888
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    Post by Since 1888 Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:30 pm

    I know, can't hear it enough. Make a fuss about it, that should help.

    Maybe you can give him back.

    @Fey: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxfs-0Rq6c4

    And you are a c**t too.

    3-2.

    End message.
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    Post by Jaime Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:33 pm

    De Guzman wrote:
    Since 1888 wrote:What about you c**ts stealing Wijnaldum. An outrage!
    [Play sample]: already said a few times I do not agree with what we did. (and in the post above yours I say agian I'm against signing players under 18 )

    what do you want, the queen to apologise?

    Poaching kids before they can sign contracts 200px-Beatriz_dos_Pa%C3%ADses_Baixos

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