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    Portuguese Squad for Belgium and Servia games (March 24&

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    doninha
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    Post by doninha Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:46 pm

    Goalkeepers: Ricardo (Sporting) e Daniel Fernandes (PAOK).

    Defenders: Miguel (Valencia), Paulo Ferreira (Chelsea), Ricardo Carvalho (Chelsea), Jorge Andrade (Deportivo), Fernando Meira (Stuttgart), Manuel da Costa (PSV Eindhoven) and Caneira (Sporting).

    Midfielders: Petit (Benfica), Raúl Meireles (FC Porto), Tiago (Lyon), João Moutinho (Sporting), Deco (FC Barcelona) e Hugo Viana (Valencia).

    Forwards: Cristiano Ronaldo (Manchester United), Simão (Benfica), Ricardo Quaresma (FC Porto), Nani (Sporting), Nuno Gomes (Benfica), Hélder Postiga (FC Porto) e Hugo Almeida (Werder Bremen).
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    Portuguese Squad for Belgium and Servia games (March 24& Empty Re: Portuguese Squad for Belgium and Servia games (March 24&

    Post by blutgraetsche Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:50 pm

    Go Hugoal! cheers

    Almeida scored quite a few important goals for us this season, hope that Scolari gives him a chance to play.
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    Post by doninha Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:58 pm

    A good call up, taking in count that Simão won't be able to play the first game (so Nani comes back), and Quim is injured.

    Another good chance to a new generation of players - Moutinho, Almeida, Nani, Manuel da Costa, Meireles - we have a great new generation of talented players.

    Usual problems: left back, Deco's replacement for attacking midfielder, strikers...

    Costinha and Maniche out, which means that they are definetly outlaws for Scolari. No one plays with Felipão (Big Phil)! I wonder if they ever will return to the national side?

    For some positions, like central defenders, we are producing so many good players, that plenty are getting unmotivated without a chance at the team: Tonel (Sporting), Ricardo Rocha (Tottenham), the 4 CD of Porto or even Beto (Recreativo Huelva) and Zé Castro (Atletico Madrid)...
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    Post by doninha Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:00 pm

    blutgraetsche wrote:Go Hugoal! cheers

    Almeida scored quite a few important goals for us this season, hope that Scolari gives him a chance to play.

    Postiga is now declining at this point of the season, but Nuno Gomes is improving his game for the time being. He is probably going to play.

    So, he will have a chance... if things go wrong for Portugal and we need a tower ahead...

    Sorry Hugo, but I hope not to see you playing this time...
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    Post by blutgraetsche Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:03 pm

    Underestimate Hugoal at your peril. He'll be there when you need him, the last piece to the puzzle, exactly the type of striker you need, a striker to convert all the chances your excellent wingers create.

    He needs to become more clinical though, but we are working on that. He is young still. Very Happy
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    Post by doninha Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:05 pm

    I wouldn't mind him playing because he is needed, AND WE WIN, in the end.

    But its 2 difficult games and we need to win badly...
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    Post by Knoblauch Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:43 pm

    doninha wrote: and we need to win badly...

    Or goodly. ok
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    Post by doninha Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:13 pm

    U21 squad (2 friendlies - Slovakia and Servia):

    Goalkeepers: Ricardo Batista (Fulham) e Paulo Ribeiro (FC Porto)

    Defenders: João Pereira (Gil Vicente), Amoreirinha (Est. Amadora), Rolando (Belenenses), Semedo (Cagliari - Sporting loan) e André Marques (Olivais e Moscavide - Sporting loan);

    Midfielders: Organista (Pontevedra), Miguel Veloso (Sporting), Tiago Gomes (Est. Amadora), Ruben Amorim e Mano (Belenenses), Manuel Fernandes (Everton), João Coimbra (Benfica) e Paulo Machado (U. Leiria - FC Porto loan);

    Forwards: Ivanildo (U. Leiria - FC Porto loan), Vaz Té (Bolton), Varela (V. Setúbal - Sporting loan), Moreira (Valência) e Yannick Djaló (Sporting)
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    Post by doninha Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:29 pm

    U21 squads look always funny to me, as they hardly represente ONE generation of players. Some are already playing at a senior level (Moutinho, Nani), others could be playin in U20 (Veloso, Djaló), and you feel other players with more potential should be there already.

    Fernandes is already in a different level from the rest of the squad. Rolando, Veloso, Amorim are having great seasons. Machado, Varela, Ivanildo, Djaló are also having interesting seasons, getting experience.
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    Post by Ricardo Jol Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:40 pm

    blutgraetsche wrote:Go Hugoal! cheers

    Almeida scored quite a few important goals for us this season, hope that Scolari gives him a chance to play.

    To be honest I am not so convinced about this ego tripper yet...

    He scored a few sitters and a few "good" goals but he missed dozens of golden opportunities...

    I also think Da Costa had to choose for France! He was born and raised in that country so why did he choose for Portugal?
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    Post by blutgraetsche Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:44 pm

    Hugoal scored the important goals for us so far, and remember that this is his first season in a different country with a different mentality, and different, more physical league. Considering his young age, I actually think that he has done very well.

    Thomas Schaaf is going to form him in the next few years, he'll make a class forwards out of him, like he has done so often in all these years he works for us. Hugo will become more clinical and "ruthless", that I'm sure of.
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    Post by Ricardo Jol Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:50 pm

    His physique is not the problem. He is skillful enough to get rid of the physical play. He more has to learn to look up a bit more...
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    Post by doninha Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:04 pm

    @Ricardo:

    Manuel da Costa was born in France, as his parents are Portuguese immigrants, but he was raised as a Portuguese (only speaking Portuguese in his home) and is fully related with his country. The parents dream is return to Portugal when retired, he has Portuguese nationality, they are strongly active in the Portuguese community of immigrants.

    He was given to choose which country he could play. France or Portugal (not one of those cases when one of the country had no interest). France actually showed interest before, and he waited to know (actually, send someone to ask the FA) if Portugal wanted him or not. Portuguese FA was interested, and he chose Portugal, even though the pressure he suffered from his club (Nancy) to choose French nationality... which would be good for his career! Nancy threatened him not to play if he chose Portugal (because his market value would be higher, and PSG was after him, as other French clubs)! Still, he went ahead with his mind.

    I think its one of the cases where the 2nd generation was still connected to his origins, and more identified with Portugal, than his new country. The same didn't happened, for example, with Robert Pires (even though he had great respect for Portugal, he spoke the language, a Benfica fan, but... only interest and respect, not feeling like Portuguese).
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    Post by doninha Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:06 pm

    I still think Hugo Almeida is a little bit like Adriano: skillfull, left footed, big, capable of doing very interesting things... and hibernate for months.

    I think his main focus should be to be regular enough, and be focused every game.
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    Post by Ricardo Jol Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:17 pm

    @ Doninha

    I still think he had to be loyal to France because he was born and raised there!

    BTW His mother is Morroccan so he could choose for Morocco as well...
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    Post by Allez les rouges Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:58 pm

    I don't get why you're so dogmatic on this issue, Ricardo – I seem to remember you complaining about it before. Being born in one place is only one factor among several, as anyone whose birthplace and parentage are different will appreciate; and of course many people have divided parentage as well. It's about how you feel, and I don't see that it's your place, or anyone else's other than the person in question, to decide for them.
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    Post by doninha Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:59 pm

    well, having immigrant family in France and Canada, I can tell you there are some differences in my own family:

    - I have cousins in France, born in France that are 100% French and don't speak Portuguese. Even their first name is already French; -> I would be shocked if they would ever play for Portugal;

    - I have cousins in Canada, born in France, went to Canada at 2, 3 years old; they speak Portuguese, come here every year, but they feel Canadian and will keep Portugal just as a place where they have origins and family, but in their hearts and minds are 100% Canadian; -> between Canada and Portugal, I would be shocked if they choose PT; although I am sure they will support PT or even represent it if there is no kind of joint possibility (imagine they play roller hockey...);

    - I have one cousin in Canada, born in Canada, that speaks fluently Portuguese, was raised in Canada, and wishes some day to come to Portugal, where he feels at home. He lives in Canada like an immigrant (like his fathers, he is there for the money), but in his house all his family speaks Portuguese, his wife is Portuguese (from Portugal), and culturally and in goals he is Portuguese. -> the inverse situation of the 2nd point;

    It depends a lot on each individual case. The wrong thing would be if it was only for career purposes.
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    Post by Tom Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:15 pm

    me and kevin mite be going to the belgium match!! woop wooop
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    Post by Luso Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:25 am

    doninha wrote:@Ricardo:

    Manuel da Costa was born in France, as his parents are Portuguese immigrants, but he was raised as a Portuguese (only speaking Portuguese in his home) and is fully related with his country. The parents dream is return to Portugal when retired, he has Portuguese nationality, they are strongly active in the Portuguese community of immigrants.

    If you put my name instead of Manuel's and changed the country to Canada, you'd have my story.

    I'm with him on this, it doesn't matter where you're born, what matters is what's in your veins and in you heart.
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    Post by Luso Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:28 am

    Allez les rouges wrote:I don't get why you're so dogmatic on this issue, Ricardo – I seem to remember you complaining about it before. Being born in one place is only one factor among several, as anyone whose birthplace and parentage are different will appreciate; and of course many people have divided parentage as well. It's about how you feel, and I don't see that it's your place, or anyone else's other than the person in question, to decide for them.

    ok
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    Post by Luso Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:31 am

    Ballack wrote:me and kevin mite be going to the belgium match!! woop wooop

    You'll get to see the Alvalade! Lucky punks...
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    Post by Luso Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:34 am

    @doninha,

    Where do your cousins live? Ontario?

    ...anywhere near Toronto?

    I'd say I'm like the your 2nd cousin, minus the wife...mas a minha mina é PT tb.
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    Post by doninha Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:10 am

    Yep, all in Brampton!

    Luso, you can be the next Daniel Fernandes of our squad!
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    Post by Ricardo Jol Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:49 am

    Allez les rouges wrote:I don't get why you're so dogmatic on this issue, Ricardo – I seem to remember you complaining about it before. Being born in one place is only one factor among several, as anyone whose birthplace and parentage are different will appreciate; and of course many people have divided parentage as well. It's about how you feel, and I don't see that it's your place, or anyone else's other than the person in question, to decide for them.

    I am "dogmatic" on this because I think this is the most interesting subject for the next 20-50 years. You are 100% right, it is not black or white and it is the most important to follow your heart; every human being is different so every one makes different choices in their life.

    However, the world is becoming a global village, cultures are now able to travel all around the world. It is a good thing people are free to go where ever they want to go. Also, a wealthy economy needs immigrants to make the region more efficient. When a country has, for instance, too many IT-experts in comparison with jobs it is better the experts have a chance to move to another country where there is a lack of that skills...

    But, the other side of the coin is, this globalisation has also negative aspects. The world is slightly coming into a huge identity crisis with probably another world war or a civil war as a result. Nobody really knows anymore who they really are. As a "world civilian" you can say "I don't care where I live because I am a world civilian and I only care about people" but is this really true? People want to be part of a group to create a certain identity. If you go to another country and you want to stay there to build up a new life you must also face the consequences your future is most likely in that country.

    The chance your children's future is in the "new" country is bigger than that your children will go back to the country where your roots are. Therefore, I think it is a moral duty of the parents to raise the children in the tradition of the "new" country. It gives your children a bigger chance to be successful in the country where you were born and raised. It doesn't mean you have to ignore (give up) your “old” roots because it is only an advantage you have both cultures in you. That can make your life even brighter. Still, your future is quite likely in the new country!

    Although many children of the “second/third generation” think they are more rooted to the country of their parents/grand parents they are going to idealise the situation. In fact they are a lot different than people from the country of their parents/grand parents. When you go on holidays to your (grand) parent’s country you love it up there and you are happy to see your family but it doesn't mean you are really the same as them because you are brought up in a (totally) different place.

    All I want to say is that it is more certain the future is in the "new" country so it is a moral duty for parents to raise your children in the tradition of the new country!

    Da Costa had to choose for France in my opinion because he is also an example for many Portuguese-French in France. For most of them their future is rather in France than in Portugal!

    On the other hand, I respect Da Costa's decision. In the end of the day he has to follow his heart. I hope he will become one of the best defenders in the world. He seems to be a good guy and he is a very talented player. I feel also honoured he chose to play for the team in Eindhoven. I think it was a wise good decision. Here he can learn a lot and when the time is there he can go to any top club in the world.

    Another point is, France put a lot of effort in their (football) education system. They educated Da Costa. It is strange Portugal can now get him for “free” while they did “zero” for Da Costa’s development. What would happen if every non-French rooted footballer in France would decide not to play for France?

    “Thank you France for the education but I am now going to play for the country where my parents are coming from”.

    Perhaps France will decide to stop paying any money in the football education system for people with non-French roots because France don’t get any thing back for it, it is a waste of money. That would be a disaster for immigrants in France
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    Post by doninha Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:30 am

    Well, on the other hand, France has access to young talents that weren't born in France and develop them to be French players, so the investment is always more positive than negative.

    I understand your point about the 2nd generations, but let me tell you from my knowledge of Portuguese immigrants (which I know pretty well and for sure its specific), that 90% of the 2nd generation in France does not have any kind of bonds with Portugal or are interested in playing for Portugal... unless they don't have enough quality to play for France and are looking for a career chance (and in that case, we should have attention to alert on those cases).

    I think you have pertinent points, and if Da Costa case was the generality of the cases, it should be reflected. But its not. And for his education, as long as their parents have been responsible and honest citizens, paying taxes and doing the work that the locals didn't want to do, I think it was a fair deal. But as I said, the majority loose the main bonds with Portugal, and feel French. And if they don't feel more French, thats mainly an issue of difficulty of France integrate the 2nd generations, Mr. Le Pen, and so on. They know their future is France, and the roots and some holidays were in Portugal, nothing more.

    Portugal is now living changin times in immigration. We used to have, until the 80's, long term immigration (South Africa, Canada, USA, Switzerland, Luxemburg, Venezuela... and essencially France). Those people would work an entire life, half to stay ever in that country, half to return to Portugal when retired. Their kids were raised as Portuguese, but the vast majority doesn't feel Portuguese. Nowadays we have essencially short term immigrants (6 months-2 years) and expats (capital knowledge).

    But the great change is... having immigrants in Portugal! It all started with the Africans ex-colonies in the 80's, and nowadays its essencially Eastern Europeans and Brazillians. The first ones for short periods (4 years, 6 years). the seconds for larger periods, but wanting to return to Brazil after 10-15 years, or earning a pension. And we need them, indeed.

    In football terms, that means that Sporting, for example, as a Romanian kid who is 13 years old and is a great talent, and we also had a Brazillian kid (Alison) with 17 years old, also looking like a bright prospect.

    Personally, I would feel honoured if they choose Portugal as their country. If Alison chooses Brazil... I feel it is normal also. I would still give them the choice to know in their hearts what is better for them.

    The former ex-colonies sons of immigrants, many of them play for Portugal (e.g. Miguel), a few chose to play for Angola (even white players like Figueiredo). Its not that common, as its not going to help them in their career... but if they do it, its because they really feel more attached to their roots than to Portugal, and I think its normal. Probably we failed in those cases to make them feel like Portuguese.

    For me, its always about individual choice, as long its based in real individual affinity, and not career goals.
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    Post by Machiavel Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:40 am

    Ronaldo v Vidic.
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    Post by Allez les rouges Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:06 pm

    Very interesting points Ricardo and largely I don't disagree with what you say, although I do think you're making it into a bigger issue than it needs to be here. (I'd agree with what you say about immigration as a force for good, note that "multiculturalism" is at last being acknowledged to have failed in the UK and also see it as a very positive thing when immigrants passionately embrace and enter into the patriotic spirit of their new country – look at France and, perhaps above all, the US.)

    But equally in the long run the increasing fluidity of nationality, of people who are a mixture of several, makes it hard to suggest there's any moral imperative to choose the country of your birth – which like everything else is something you have no control over; besides, often your place of birth, or even where you spend the first few years of your life, is somewhat incidental. You'd expect people maybe to end up, at least, in the country they most closely identify with, but in the meantime I think we have to respect it – as you say you do in this case – if someone says their heart does NOT primarily belong to the country of their birth, even if it is their (temporary) home.
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    Post by DD Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:24 pm

    All bollocks.

    THis whole dual citizenship crap. Its not even a point, but its suddenly an issue because the most rightwing nutters in the Dutch parlement are demanding for everyone with dual citizenship to give it up, or be branded a incompetent moocher.

    Such a 'great' idea, that the extreme rightwing party of Belgium also adopted it as an idea.

    What it really is doing is segregating the public (go figure). Inflaming the 'true' citizens to 'revolt' against those who have it (who are already branded social security rats) to give it up.
    Its only an issue for the yokels (who complain that everything is someone else's fault), because its non-issue for people who have common sense or dual citizenship.
    Those who have dual citizenship never think about it (most forget they even are!), and those with common sense see that its a non-issue: there are better and more important things that need attention or priority.

    Now they want to use taxpayers money to 'expose' everyone who those have it. They already 'exposed' some MPs, and asked for their resignation.


    Very bad: its segregation at its most potent at work.



    And for football, let him choose when he does he's stuck with it anyway. IMprove your life and stop complaining about others.
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    Post by Luso Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:47 pm

    doninha wrote:Yep, all in Brampton!

    Luso, you can be the next Daniel Fernandes of our squad!

    Oh yea, I used to live in Brampton!
    Lots of Portuguese people live in that area. Toronto, Missassauga, Brapton etc. I have friends who live in that area in all three cities.

    I live further south now in London. But from here to that area is about an 1 1/2h by car...nothing really.

    Have you been here doninha?
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    Post by doninha Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:52 pm

    Yes, many years ago. I am considering in returning one of these years, but staying few time in Ontario. I want to steal a car to my uncle (that is very involved in the community, local politic and youth sport) and go to Quebec 'eating miles'.

    The main problem is that no one would understand me going to Canada for 3 weeks, and only spend 2-3 days with my family... thats the reason why I still haven't done it.

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