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Deano

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Kroos

theflyingfrenchman

Since 1888

Luis

Torrente

COTR

110%

Parks lives

Tom

bluenine

Tweesus

Red n' Black

Formerly known as sheva7

Kimbo

Rez

Cesc Soler

Fey

Calidad

Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Judge the players in your team

Rez

Rez: Number of posts : 3757
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Post n°31

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Rez Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:13 am

Red n' Black wrote:Re Roma

Chivu is on the brink IMO
De Rossi as well, i do rate him higher than BOTH Gattuso and Pirlo. But he ain't WC yet.

Mancini is IC, probably top end but not WC.

And as someone who has watched Totti for years, i'd say he is WC but you guys think he's Cr@p so there's no point discussing it and arguing about it.

I would say though that most people outside England wouldn't laugh by hearing someone suggesting that Totti is WC.

I would say Totti is in the nothing special class Wink

In all seriousness the Roma comment is a joke directed towards Pierre, Blue and Forza, in response to them excessively lauding the Roma team before the united tie.

I rate De Rossi very highly, even though he is a twat and would like to have him at United.

Mancini is good, but is not the Ronaldo beater that many lead us to believe.

Chivu is also a very good player, although he is not the player Blue thinks he is.

Torrente

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Post n°32

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Torrente Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:39 am

Real Madrid:

Casillas - world class

Cannavaro - world class

Ramos - international class (almost world class)

Helguera - nothing special

Roberto Carlos - former world class, nothing special

Diarra - international class

Emerson - nothing special

Robinho - international class

Beckham - international class

Raul - former world class, now just plain Cr@p

Ruud - international class, almost world class*

Higuain - nothing special, almost international class

Gago - see above

Torres - see above

Reyes - international class

Salgado - Cr@p

Guti - international class (tough most Spanish coaches don't seem to agree)

*I don't see him as world class because despite his great club record, he has never proven himself with the Dutch team, a world class requisite in my book

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Post n°33

Re: Judge the players in your team

by DD Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:44 am

Torrente wrote:
*I don't see him as world class because despite his great club record, he has never proven himself with the Dutch team, a world class requisite in my book

yes he has. Before 2002 he wasn't favoured because of Kluivert (both born on the same day same year btw). After that he always knocked them in - with some ridiculous record of 3 goals for every 4 games.
It was only during the WC06 that Van Basten fucked with the formula and as a result Ruud didn't get supply - he only got to played two games, and did every well within those games.
He was later ostracised because of agendas (Van Basten) not because of his work rate and/or end product.

Ruud's quality, ability and class has never been disputed and neither have they been able to be disreputed by his haters.

He has been proven plenty in the Oranje squad. Look at Euro04 for tournie references (including that Germany goal) or even his end product in the WC (in two games he got 3 balls: he scored one, missed on barely and got a wonder save from the keeper; and he made something out of nothing which was kept out of the net by the unsuspecting CB [hit him in the shoulder] -> 4 balls that's it).

Last edited by on Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:50 am; edited 1 time in total

Luis

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Post n°34

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Luis Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:47 am

@ COTR, Garcia is world class

Parks lives

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Post n°35

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Parks lives Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:50 am

Luis wrote:@ COTR, Garcia is world class

Torrente

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Post n°36

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Torrente Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:51 am

DD wrote:

Torrente wrote:
*I don't see him as world class because despite his great club record, he has never proven himself with the Dutch team, a world class requisite in my book

yes he has. Before 2002 he wasn't favoured because of Kluivert (both born on the same day same year btw). After that he always knocked them in - with some ridiculous record of 3 goals for every 4 games.
It was only during the WC06 that Van Basten fucked with the formula and as a result Ruud didn't get supply - he only got to played two games, and did every well within those games.
He was later ostracised because of agendas (Van Basten) not because of his work rate and/or end product.

Ruud's quality, ability and class has never been disputed and neither have they been able to be disreputed by his haters.

Regarding the Kluivert issue, that's bad luck, but it doesn't change the fact that Ruud didn't play back then. You can't use Kluivert's quality as an excuse to say Ruud is world class.

Ruud only scored against Cr@p teams in qualifiers. That's hardly proving himself. And in the end, he hasn't had a great international tournament. In Euro 2004, he started off well and then completely disappeared in the knockout rounds. In WC 2006 he was mediocre. Van Basten may have been wrong to put Kuyt ahead of him (who was even worse), but let's face it, a lot of coaches would have benched Van Nistelrooy after his under par performances in the world cup. Van Basten's problem was that he had no one better to replace him and he still did.

Luis

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Post n°37

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Luis Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:51 am

You know it's true

Tweesus

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Post n°38

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Tweesus Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:51 am

Luis wrote:@ COTR, Garcia is world class

You better be joking

Luis

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Post n°39

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Luis Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:52 am

Tweedle wrote:

Luis wrote:@ COTR, Garcia is world class

You better be joking

Nope.

Guest

Guest: Guest

Post n°40

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Guest Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:56 am

Pepe Reina - International class

Steve Finnan - International class
Jamie Carragher - International class
Daniel Agger - International class
Fabio Aurelio - International class

Steven Gerrard - World class
Xabi Alonso - International class this season / world class last season
Javier Mascherano - World class
Harry Kewell - International class

Dirk Kuyt - International class
Peter Crouch - International class

Luis Garcia - International class
Sami Hyypia - Nothing special (any more)
Jermaine Pennant - Nothing special (ever)
John Arne Riise - Nothing special (Defensively)
Momo Sissoko - International class

Luis

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Post n°41

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Luis Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:57 am

The Jermaine Pennant agenda is class, can't wait til he proves you wrong next season

Guest

Guest: Guest

Post n°42

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Guest Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:59 am

Luis wrote: The Jermaine Pennant agenda is class, can't wait til he proves you wrong next season

Pennant is, not good enough.

*Run around*
*lose the ball*
*Run around*
*Pass it backwards*
*Run around*
*Put a $h!t cross in*
etc.

Tweesus

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Post n°43

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Tweesus Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:00 pm

There is no way that Garcia is anywhere near world class - he's not even near the top end of international class

Guest

Guest: Guest

Post n°44

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Guest Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:01 pm

Tweedle wrote:There is no way that Garcia is anywhere near world class - he's not even near the top end of international class

He has his moments of class, but he's too inconsistent to be called world class. Fantastic little player though.

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Post n°45

Re: Judge the players in your team

by DD Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:05 pm

Well then Torrente how many quality teams does an international striker face?
Ruud has scored against all teams in the qualifiers (either at home and/or away) - and during his two tournaments: in EC04 against Germany, Czechs and Sweden (only Latvia [45 minutes] and Portugal he didn't) and during the WC06 against the Ivory Coast but didn't against Serbia & Montenegro (he didn't figure vs Argentina and Portugal).

Even though you can only play against the ones in front of you -
let's see in tournies he played against 7 teams and scored 4 times, including Germany, Czechs, Sweden and Ivory Coast.
The games are there and so are the opponents he scored against.

I'm not here trying to convince you he's WC, that's just your opinion.
I'm only showing you what he has achieved in international games.

My first question does return: how many quality teams does an international striker get to face when it matters?
Ruud checks all the boxes so far.

bluenine

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Post n°46

Re: Judge the players in your team

by bluenine Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:09 pm

So Chelsea can have 7 world class players, thats alright, but italian champions Inter cannot have 6 or European champions Milan cannot have 6?? Wink

I think we have already established long back that our definations of world class are very different.... if you still only rate top 23 players as world class, then ManU has only 2, and Inter only 2, and Milan has only 2 - we have already established that -

http://europeanboard.ephpbb.com/European-Board-c2/The-International-Board-f6/Your-World-Class-Squad-Results-t8147-0.htm

But I personally think there are about 50-60 WC players out there, I mean, the WC23 didn't even include Gerrard or Zanetti or Toni, who IMO are certainly WC!!

Tweedle wrote:I'll do Roma as well:

Doni - IC
Panucci - NS
Mexes - IC
Chivu - WC
Tonetto - IC
De Rossi - WC
Perotta - IC
Mancini - WC
Pizarro - IC
Totti - WC
Taddei - IC

So from the top 3 Italian teams there are a staggering 16 world class players!!!

Luis

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Post n°47

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Luis Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:13 pm

Tweedle wrote:There is no way that Garcia is anywhere near world class - he's not even near the top end of international class

That is bollocks, When Garcia plays well he's as good as anyone

Parks lives

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Post n°48

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Parks lives Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:16 pm

Luis wrote:

Tweedle wrote:There is no way that Garcia is anywhere near world class - he's not even near the top end of international class

That is bollocks, When Garcia plays well he's as good as anyone

Luis

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Post n°49

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Luis Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:17 pm

Parks lives wrote:

Luis wrote:

Tweedle wrote:There is no way that Garcia is anywhere near world class - he's not even near the top end of international class

That is bollocks, When Garcia plays well he's as good as anyone

Before his ijnury I don't recall him having a bad game this season, he was in immense form, so to me he's improving every game

Rez

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Post n°50

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Rez Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:21 pm

bluenine wrote:So Chelsea can have 7 world class players, thats alright, but italian champions Inter cannot have 6 or European champions Milan cannot have 6??

I think we have already established long back that our definations of world class are very different.... if you still only rate top 23 players as world class, then ManU has only 2, and Inter only 2, and Milan has only 2 - we have already established that -

http://europeanboard.ephpbb.com/European-Board-c2/The-International-Board-f6/Your-World-Class-Squad-Results-t8147-0.htm

But I personally think there are about 50-60 WC players out there, I mean, the WC23 didn't even include Gerrard or Zanetti or Toni, who IMO are certainly WC!!

Tweedle wrote:I'll do Roma as well:

Doni - IC
Panucci - NS
Mexes - IC
Chivu - WC
Tonetto - IC
De Rossi - WC
Perotta - IC
Mancini - WC
Pizarro - IC
Totti - WC
Taddei - IC

So from the top 3 Italian teams there are a staggering 16 world class players!!!

For me world class is that you can walk into most of the top teams in the world. As you're the best or one of the best in your position, hence why I said ony Ronaldo and ferdinand are world class in the united team. However there are some positions which have many great players and some that dont have many at all.

However the WC label is definitely devalued when people include half their teams starting line up as WC.

I think we should have a few more categorys like, nothing special, Domestic league class, potentialy International class, international class, on the cusp of WC and finally WC.

This would solve the issue of people claiming that half their starting 11 are world class.

Torrente

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Post n°51

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Torrente Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:21 pm

DD wrote:Well then Torrente how many quality teams does an international striker face?
Ruud has scored against all teams in the qualifiers (either at home and/or away) - and during his two tournaments: in EC04 against Germany, Czechs and Sweden (only Latvia [45 minutes] and Portugal he didn't) and during the WC06 against the Ivory Coast but didn't against Serbia & Montenegro (he didn't figure vs Argentina and Portugal).

Even though you can only play against the ones in front of you -
let's see in tournies he played against 7 teams and scored 4 times, including Germany, Czechs, Sweden and Ivory Coast.
The games are there and so are the opponents he scored against.

I'm not here trying to convince you he's WC, that's just your opinion.
I'm only showing you what he has achieved in international games.

My first question does return: how many quality teams does an international striker get to face when it matters?
Ruud checks all the boxes so far.

First of all, Ruud didn't score against Sweden. The game ended 0-0.

Second, there's no "exact" formula about who you should score against and so on. In the end it also comes down to performances, the sheer number of goals, and what stage of the tournament you score those goals.

Perhaps I went too far in saying that Ruud only scores against Cr@p teams (though most of his Dutch goal tally would confirm this), but Ruud has simply never been great with Holland. In Euro 2004 he was complete Cr@p in the knockout rounds and in the WC2006 he was mediocre. And in some of the games you mention he scored such as against Germany, he was invisible the whole game, so scoring shouldn't be the only criteria to grade a performance. If you're content with calling that a success that's fine. But I expect more from a so called "world class" striker.

Rez

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Post n°52

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Rez Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:23 pm

Luis you dont actually believe Garcia is WC, he wouldnt get into any of the top teams in England, never mind in the world.

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Post n°53

Re: Judge the players in your team

by DD Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:31 pm

Its some where in between I suppose - he never got the proper oppsotion to play against (Argentina, Brazil etc), and against Germany he wasn't at his best but still pulled the gaol out of a rabbit hat.
His performances during the WC have been hugely exagerated I've seen those tapes over and over again, and the consensus was that he did extremely well for the supply he had, and no other in the world could have gotten more out of it (he was stranded on his own). The idea that he did poorly was exploited by Van Basten for his own purposes later on. Until it was disproven and burried over here.

I'm nowhere (and I'm repeating this for the second time) saying those are WC performances or trying or willing to change your mind over it.
Just that his record is there, he did play against the opponents he faced, and during the qualifications he had an insane goalscoring record.
For the better part he did deliver the complete package, even in the big games.

You're making it sound like he had a 40 starts 3 goals record with abysmal play in between.
Give the man supply and he will score against anyone in the world.

Since 1888

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Post n°54

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Since 1888 Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:05 pm

Typical top team fan thread.

theflyingfrenchman

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Post n°55

Re: Judge the players in your team

by theflyingfrenchman Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:22 pm

Right, this is going to be funny:

Jussi - International Class, at least.
Hunt - $h!t.
Diagne-Faye - International Class
Meité - Nothing Special
Gardner - International Class
Nolan - Too bloody irregular ot be anything; On top form he is brilliant.
Campo - Nothing Special, too old now
Speed - ditto
Diouf - World Class imo.
Davies - International Class. Nobody else can do what he does in the Premiership bar Drogba ( who does it twice as well).
Anelka - World Class

Subs:

Ali Al - habsi - God knows
O'Brien - Nothing Special
Teymourian - International Class
Vaz Té - Nothing Special
Cid - N/A

110%

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Post n°56

Re: Judge the players in your team

by 110% Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:24 pm

I would put RVN as world class. There is no better poacher than him in world football. And doesn't he have some kind of record of being the top scorer in every league he's played in, in his 1st year. He doesn't need time to settle.

As for chelsea they have 3 truly world class players that maybe everyone would agree: cech, essien and drogba. Sheva and ballack might have been in previous years but definitely not last season.

On this basis arsenal 1 (henry), liverpool 1 (gerrard), manu 1 (cronaldo) that neutrals would truly agree. There are others but they are all debatable.

If the italian fans did it fairly they would only really have 1-3 world class players in each of the top teams, e.g. totti for roma, kaka, seedorf for milan, cambiasso, zanetti and ibra for inter etc.

The defenders are difficult to judge as there are none that are truly outstanding at the moment except Ramos. There are lot of very good ones at the same level e.g. ferdinand, terry, carragher, nesta, cannavro, nutterazzi, puyol, alex etc and then it's just personal preference.

Tweesus

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Post n°57

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Tweesus Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:24 pm

@ blue

Your squad players better football than Chelsea, and I think you have more strength in depth in every position than Chelsea but Inter simply do not have the quality that Chelsea have.

Toldo is no Cech

You do not have players of the calibre of Essien or Carvalho, but then again your team doesn't have to carry dead weights like Ferreira or Lampard.

With an attack0minded manager, Chelsea would rock

Forza Italia!Forza Milan!

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Post n°58

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:30 pm

Since 1888 wrote:Typical top team fan thread.

I was actually thinking that once I posted. But that doesn't mean your club can't have any world class players in your view. If you think there are, post them.

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Post n°59

Re: Judge the players in your team

by DD Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:32 pm

Forza Italia!Forza Milan! wrote:

Since 1888 wrote:Typical top team fan thread.

I was actually thinking that once I posted. But that doesn't mean your club can't have any world class players in your view. If you think there are, post them.

That would be quite a deluded view if I thought NEC had some. Laugh

Kroos

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Post n°60

Re: Judge the players in your team

by Kroos Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:34 pm

kahn (ic)
sagnol (wc)
lucio (wc)
ismael (ic)
lahm (wc)
ribery (ic)
vanbommel (ic)
Schweini (ic)
ze roberto (ic)
toni (wc)
poldi (ic)

rensing (ic)
görlitz(nothing spezial)
vanbuyten (bundesliga class)
demichelis (bundesliga class/ic)
jansen (ic)
sosa ( know nothing about him)
schlaudraff (bundesliga class, but with potenzial)
ottl (ic or bunesliga class)
altintop (bundesliga class/ic)
santa cruz (bundesliga class/ic)
makaay (ic)

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