Jose: Benitez must deliver

The best manager in the world has started the mind games...

http://home.skysports.com/list.aspx?hlid=478565&CPID=8&clid=3&lid=2&title=Jose:+Benitez+must+deliver.

He's just making the point about spending, how Rafa always made comments about Chelsea's spending (buying Titles) etc.

I think its a pretty objective report for Jose.

The pressure isn't because Benitez has spent more, its because hes been here a number of years, set the framework and should be in a position where he can strive to contest the title.

Yeah, its pretty standard stuff.

Not sure that the argument that the pressure's on because he's spent money bears fruit - after all, Jose and Fergie have both spent more.

Comapring squads for next season I still think Liverpool lack something.

They're fine in central midfield and across the defence (though maybe lack a bit of defencive depth) but in attack there still isn't anything too worrying.

If Kewell is injured then Liverpool have no real quality on the left wing - Babel can play there but he's not much of a crosser, more of a cut in and shoot type and his record of 7 goals in two seasons shows you how bad at that he is.

Torres is a good acquisition, and Kuyt will improve this season but neither strike fear into defences and both are quite similar in their movement, and could possilby end out incompatible

I also think Liverpool are somewhat lacking in quality. I think that what they need above all is a big talent who can dribble and score goals by himself. Liverpool don't really have this kind of player. They don't really have someone with a large amount of flair and this could be crucial in close games when a moment of inspiration is needed. I think that whether this player is a RW, LW, or forward is irrelevant, they simply need one regardless of what position he plays in.

Benitez seems to favour flexibility (i.e. players who can play in more than one position) over getting in one 'killer' player for a key position - hence Babel over Malouda.

Our signing of Torres may be the first sign that that policy is changing.

I think this is a pretty fair assessment from Jose, in the same way I'd think it would be pretty fair for Benitez to say to Mourinho it's about time you delivered the Champions League at Chelsea. With Liverpool spending a lot this summer (albeit only on a couple of players), there was bound to be added pressure.

Benitez's problem in the Prem has been quite clear: It's not a fact of his squad not being good enough, nor a fact of himself not being a good enough manager to deliver the Prem, because both are untrue imo. It's being consistent enough over the whole season to mount a serious challenge. And I think the vast majority of Liverpool fans will agree with me (maybe Arsenal fans too regarding their own club) that they haven't been consistently beating the likes of Fulham, Charlton, Wigan, Sheff Utd, Blackburn etc. If both clubs are beating these teams like they should be, there's no reason why we can't have a 4-horse title race next season.

Consistency has clearly been our downfall in the last couple of seasons, at least in competing for the title (i.e. getting within 5-6 points of the champions). Whether it would be enough to win it is another matter.

I think Torrente has a point though, we have lacked a creative player of the calibre of Ronaldo or Robben or Henry who can change a game with a spark of genius. The closest we've had has been Garcia, and even he's gone now.

My (imo realistic) target for next season is to score more than 80 points.

The problem with ahving a truely creative player, is that it will go againsts Rafas philopshy of being disciplined, i do believe that Rafa considers defence before attack, and this is not something i believe Wenger or Ferguson do.

I also agree that to be a truely formidable team, you need a moment of magic occassionally to break down a stubborn team.

I think in Kewell (if fit) and Gerrard, we have some creativity. But we really need a forward that strikes fear into the opponent, i'm hoping Torres can be this player, but only time will tell.

Roger Hunt wrote:Yeah, its pretty standard stuff.

Not sure that the argument that the pressure's on because he's spent money bears fruit - after all, Jose and Fergie have both spent more.

In the last two summers, Benitez has spent more than Ferguson.

TeamSpirituality wrote:

Roger Hunt wrote:Yeah, its pretty standard stuff.

Not sure that the argument that the pressure's on because he's spent money bears fruit - after all, Jose and Fergie have both spent more.

In the last two summers, Benitez has spent more than Ferguson.

Yeah we've been here before saints

fergie had a starting point of a squad that had a fortune spent on it
benitez had a starting point of houllier's dross

do we really have to go over this ground again ???


jose's claims are hardly controversial are they ? he has come out in the press this week and said he will be shutting up this year and be a lot calming. i very much doubt he will be sticking to this promise

TeamSpirituality wrote:

Roger Hunt wrote:Yeah, its pretty standard stuff.

Not sure that the argument that the pressure's on because he's spent money bears fruit - after all, Jose and Fergie have both spent more.

In the last two summers, Benitez has spent more than Ferguson.

Not that im aware whether it makes any difference, but why two summers? why not the last 3? after all that is the time frame Benitez has been with Liverpool.

I'm pretty sure he has spent less net wise than Rafa since Rafa arrived.

True, if only just by my calculations

Liverpool summer 06 - Bellamy £6m, Kuyt £11m, Arbeloa £2m, Gonzales £2m = £21m
Summer 07 - Torres £24m, Babel £12m, Benayoun £5m, Lucas £6m, Leto £2m = £49m
Total £70m

Man U summer 06 - Carrick £18m
Summer 07 - Nani £14m, Anderson £17m, Hargreaves £17m, Kusczak £3m = £51m
Total £69m

But my point is that the pressure is no more on Rafa than it is on Fergie or Jose on the basis of money spent - and only one of them can win it.

Roger Hunt wrote:True, if only just by my calculations

Liverpool summer 06 - Bellamy £6m, Kuyt £11m, Arbeloa £2m, Gonzales £2m = £21m
Summer 07 - Torres £24m, Babel £12m, Benayoun £5m, Lucas £6m, Leto £2m = £49m
Total £70m

Man U summer 06 - Carrick £18m
Summer 07 - Nani £14m, Anderson £17m, Hargreaves £17m, Kusczak £3m = £51m
Total £69m

But my point is that the pressure is no more on Rafa than it is on Fergie or Jose on the basis of money spent - and only one of them can win it.

You conveniently overlooked incoming transfer fees - Liverpool sold no one of note last summer. Man U sold Van Nistelrooy and Mikel for a total of 23.5 million, which more than paid for Carrick (who you have at 18 million, again conveniently overlooking the fact that 4.5 million of his fee was conditional).

Again why are we comparing only the last 2 summers? is that so the figures can be conveniently manipulated, i would say it would be far more objective to consider the purchases (if it is in any way comparable - two different clubs in two different situations requiring different types of players) from 2004 onwards...

COTR wrote:

In the last two summers, Benitez has spent more than Ferguson.

Yeah we've been here before saints

fergie had a starting point of a squad that had a fortune spent on it
benitez had a starting point of houllier's dross

But with your best two players - Carragher and Gerrard - in the team, and a striker ready to be sold to raise funds in Owen.

do we really have to go over this ground again ???

Only if Liverpool fans' revisionism goes beserk.

jose's claims are hardly controversial are they ? he has come out in the press this week and said he will be shutting up this year and be a lot calming. i very much doubt he will be sticking to this promise

Ruffled a feather or two, has he?

Football Genius wrote:

TeamSpirituality wrote:

Roger Hunt wrote:Yeah, its pretty standard stuff.

Not sure that the argument that the pressure's on because he's spent money bears fruit - after all, Jose and Fergie have both spent more.

In the last two summers, Benitez has spent more than Ferguson.

Not that im aware whether it makes any difference, but why two summers? why not the last 3? after all that is the time frame Benitez has been with Liverpool.

Because 3 seasons back Man U were no closer to the title than Liverpool. Not this season just gone, but the prior one, Liverpool finished only a point behind Man U. This season just gone they finished 21 points behind Man U.

And if you throw in an extra season, I'm pretty sure the stats only make Benitez look worse. His forward/striker signings have been poor so far, and I'm not convinced spending nearly 40 million on Torres and Babel is going to change that impression.

I havent conveniently overlooked anything - your statement was 'spent' and didn't refer to net transfer fees.

I have assumed that the £4.5m conditional payment on Carrick has been paid since Man U won the Prem.

If i wasn't in such pain from my hangover i think i would have burst out in tears of laughter, thats a pittyful arguement, i expect better from you Saints of all people.

We last won the league over 16 years ago, Man Utd won it in 2003?

They had a core of championship winning players.

Again it would be far more objective to consider the purchases since 2004, not the convient last 2 summers, if you are comparing expenditure.

The fact that we need more investment to build a team worthy of competiting is something you've completely ignored and focused entirely on the measuarble figure.

I'm still not quite sure what saints argument is to be honest.

On the basis of money spent over the last 2-3 years, all of Man U, Chelsea and Liverpool ought to be challenging for the Premiership and the CL.

I can't see that the pressure on Rafa is any more than on Fergie or Jose - which seemed to be the point of Jose's original statement.

By the way - if the Tevez deal goes through Man U's spending will be well in excess of the other 2...

Roger Hunt wrote:I havent conveniently overlooked anything - your statement was 'spent' and didn't refer to net transfer fees.

Fair enough.

I have assumed that the £4.5m conditional payment on Carrick has been paid since Man U won the Prem.

It isn't one payment.

Football Genius wrote:If i wasn't in such pain from my hangover i think i would have burst out in tears of laughter, thats a pittyful arguement, i expect better from you Saints of all people.

If you weren't such a tedious wanker I'd put more effort into my responses to your nonsense.

We last won the league over 16 years ago, Man Utd won it in 2003?

They had a core of championship winning players.

Liverpool won the CL in 2005 and the FA cup in 2006 and achieved 82 points in 2006. They were as close then as Man U were a year earlier.

Again it would be far more objective to consider the purchases since 2004, not the convient last 2 summers, if you are comparing expenditure.

Go right ahead then.

The fact that we need more investment to build a team worthy of competiting is something you've completely ignored and focused entirely on the measuarble figure.

So your squad, essentially the one Benitez won the CL with, wasn't good enough to be 'competiting'?

Roger Hunt wrote:I'm still not quite sure what saints argument is to be honest.

I have no argument. I merely said the Benitez has spent more over the last two summers than Fergie has. Then three Liverpool fans got all haughty and started attributing all sorts of nonsense to me and then trying to criticise that nonsense. It's called a 'straw man' argument.

On the basis of money spent over the last 2-3 years, all of Man U, Chelsea and Liverpool ought to be challenging for the Premiership and the CL.

Indeed, and Jose's big failing is not having won the CL with Chelsea despite three years and 300 million quid spent.

I can't see that the pressure on Rafa is any more than on Fergie or Jose - which seemed to be the point of Jose's original statement.

Aye, but Jose's original statement made about as much sense as FG's most recent one.

By the way - if the Tevez deal goes through Man U's spending will be well in excess of the other 2...

Depends on whether it is a loan deal or not. Again, you're assuming a lot.

Sorry FG, everything Saints has said is right.

If you include 2004 as well, I still think Liverpool come off worse in net spending.

I think you've answered your own questions.

If the squad was good enough, it would have competed.

Consistancy wins you leagues, something that doesn't always need to be a factor in a one off tournament.

And no i won't compare the two figures from 2004 because i don't have all the time in world to dig up pointless facts, however if you intend to prove your point whatever that is, then by all means knock yourself out.

And i can't be that tedius, you keep replying to my posts!

Admit it Saints you love it really, if only you applyed the same time to something even remotely worthwhile, perhaps you might make that breakthrough as politcal lapdog.

TeamSpirituality wrote:

Roger Hunt wrote:I'm still not quite sure what saints argument is to be honest.

I have no argument. I merely said the Benitez has spent more over the last two summers than Fergie has. Then three Liverpool fans got all haughty and started attributing all sorts of nonsense to me and then trying to criticise that nonsense. It's called a 'straw man' argument.

OK I'll try again. It is true that Liverpool have spent more - but only about 3% more which is hardly enough to make a significant difference. My point was that the spending of Chelsea, Man U and Liverpool has been roughly similar in the last 2 years and their ambitions should also be roughly similar - but that only one club can win.

TeamSpirituality wrote:

By the way - if the Tevez deal goes through Man U's spending will be well in excess of the other 2...

Depends on whether it is a loan deal or not. Again, you're assuming a lot.

I am assuming (and I did say if) but the deal has been widely reported as £25m or £30m.

Parks lives wrote:Sorry FG, everything Saints has said is right.

If you include 2004 as well, I still think Liverpool come off worse in net spending.

Not once have i said otherwise, i said that comparing the last two summers is hardly a good basis of comparison.

To make it abundantly clear, i don't see the value in comparing the two as the circumstances are different at the two respective clubs.

Roger Hunt wrote:

TeamSpirituality wrote:

Roger Hunt wrote:I'm still not quite sure what saints argument is to be honest.

I have no argument. I merely said the Benitez has spent more over the last two summers than Fergie has. Then three Liverpool fans got all haughty and started attributing all sorts of nonsense to me and then trying to criticise that nonsense. It's called a 'straw man' argument.

OK I'll try again. It is true that Liverpool have spent more - but only about 3% more which is hardly enough to make a significant difference. My point was that the spending of Chelsea, Man U and Liverpool has been roughly similar in the last 2 years and their ambitions should also be roughly similar - but that only one club can win.

Hardly - Man U and Liverpool have spent similar amounts, Chelsea have spent considerably more. And I agreed with you that all of them should be competing.

TeamSpirituality wrote:

By the way - if the Tevez deal goes through Man U's spending will be well in excess of the other 2...

Depends on whether it is a loan deal or not. Again, you're assuming a lot.

I am assuming (and I did say if) but the deal has been widely reported as £25m or £30m.

It's also been widely reported to be a 1 or 2 season loan deal, which may not cost Man U very much at all in terms of a fee, only having to cover Tevez's wages. You are assuming that the transfer will go through, that it'll be permanent and that the reported permanent fee is accurate.

I'd call that 'assuming a lot'. Oh, I did already.

Saints it is widely acknowledged that our squad which won the CL in 05 was one of the worst to win the competition in recent history. it's the reason people constantly refer to it as a 'fluke'

We went through the campaign with barely any strikers. cisse was out injured, baros missed large parts of the season, owen had just buggered off to madrid, traore was a mainstay in defence, biscan a regular midfielder. even neil mellor was getting a look in we were so desperate

if you want to somehow compare this squad to the one fergie had that year then go right ahead

my view on the matter, as I am sure will be shared by a lot of people is that benitez had to somehow massively increase his squad numbers on similar amounts of money that fergie could spend on just one or two players because his squad building was already done. this is all rather simple stuff

there is a reason we have only signed one player over 15 million (and it was only this year) and fergie has signed about 8 players(rio, Ruud, veron, rooney, nani, carrick, hargreaves, anderson) over this price tag. he has consistently been backed whenever he wants players. benitez for example needed a striker in the CL winning season at january but we just about got the money together to get him morientes. he also wanted simao and alves but the board viewed them too expensive

now however jose's words enter the picture and become more meaningful. beniez has had time to build his own squad and he is not making reactionary purchases to cover deficiencies left over from houllier's regime which is why jose's words of the pressure now being on rafa are entirely true