are they really THAT good

let's take the football debate up a notch or two

and discuss

to what extent the role a key player has within the team influences the way he performs and is perceived

think about it this way

EVERYHTING was revolving around Henry when he was at Arsenil

hence he was the star

the moment he left, OTHERS STEPPED UP

once in Barca, where he was merely one of many, Henry became shite

-----------------

take Diego at Bremen:

fans and players seem to think it's always the Diego show

well, then why was he not the superstar in Portugal or for Brazil

and why, do Bremen defeat Real 3:2 WITHOUT Diego, yet playing brilliant attacking football as orchstrated by no-name Jensen

----------------

and finally

let's take Bayern and Ribery

van Buyten, one of Frank's best friends at the club , just said that the problem was sometimes : " everybody is just waiting for Ribery to do something special. we ALL have to step up"

we could add VDV and HSV to this little conundrum

or France and ZZ

but the gist is the same

a "perceived star player" seems to thrive on the attention , adulation and team support, but really often just sucks the life out of the rest of the Mannschaft

the team make him look good, but taken out of his "star-environment" he as well as the team collapse, or the rest of the team start to revive and share the tasks equally and successfully

ultimatively meaning that he is more of a pest than a blessing

potentially true story

ok

fair enough

this debate is slightly above your usual level

so let me rephrase it

what do you think of Pamela Anderson ?

sorry, what was the question?

Podolski

Oh Lordy It's Glenn Hysén wrote:sorry, what was the question?

is the assertion in the first post true or false

are who really THAT good?

Oh Lordy It's Glenn Hysén wrote:are who really THAT good?

at ease, soldier

you don't have to fight , if you don't want to

36-0tto wrote:

EVERYHTING was revolving around Henry when he was at Arsenil

hence he was the star

the moment he left, OTHERS STEPPED UP

Arsenal with Henry:

* FA Premier League: 2001–02, 2003–04
* FA Cup: 2002, 2003, 2005
* FA Community Shield: 2002, 2004
* UEFA Champions League Runner-up : 2006
* UEFA Cup Runner-up : 2000

Arsenal since Henry left:

36-0tto wrote:

take Diego at Bremen:

fans and players seem to think it's always the Diego show

well, then why was he not the superstar in Portugal or for Brazil

and why, do Bremen defeat Real 3:2 WITHOUT Diego, yet playing brilliant attacking football as orchstrated by no-name Jensen

but who is to say that if Diego had played in that game they wouldn't have won 5-0? Sometimes you have to drink water if you want your urine to look like wine.

Interesting. Perhaps a a counter argument you could try to list the sides that are worse without their star player......

I bet there's more

Oh Lordy It's Glenn Hysén wrote:
but who is to say that if Diego had played in that game they wouldn't have won 5-0 ? Sometimes you have to drink water if you want your urine to look like wine.

sure, that'll always be the argument

only , I ain't buying it

when Diego joined Werder Klose suddenly lost his shine

Diego was simply hogging the ball for too long, he was too slow to pass , as Frings, Baumann, Borowski and Klose ALL repeatedly said in the papers

YET

Diego always looked GREAT himself; fans were raving

in other words, he sucked the mojo out of the team to his own benefit

supply lines to Klose were cut

then Diego got injured or suspended

WITHOUT their genius Bremen now won the next Bundesliga match 6:1



with Klose scoring TWO and creating TWO assists

to stop critics from immediately saying " see, we play better WITHOUT Diego" Schaaf, the manager, said that WITH Diego Werder would have scored EVEN MORE



a ludicrous assertion, if ever there was one

pure specualtion though that tends to favour the fans' darling

In his later years at Newcastle, Shearer sometimes was accused of actually being damaging to the team - the argument went that he was too much the star player and that the team was built too much around him, working to get the best out of a player who by that time lacked mobility. It was even suggested that people like Bellamy, Jenas, Dyer were utilised and played as players who could do all of Shearers leg work.

The truth is that, rather than the team having to work for Shearer, Shearer was made to work for some of the poor players we had in the team. Shearer was always a clever footballer; a footballer who adapted his game when injuries led to a lack of pace; a footballer with a variety of talents (his build up play was good, and besides from being an excellent finisher, strong, one of the best at heading the ball, hes probably, after Beckham, the best crosser of the ball England has had in the last ten years); and one who had played and excelled in a range of teams, under a range of styles throughout his career. Shearer was limited because, for instance, our defenders would use Shearer by constantly looking for his head, or midfielders would blast the ball for him to control and hold up. Rather than the team being set up around Shearer and Bellamy having to run for him, the team was, at that time, more set up around Bellamys pace, with Shearer acting the foil, flicking on balls for Bellamy to run on to or making through balls - and Bellamys subsequent career suggests that he in fact needs to play in teams that are built around his pace, because its by far and away his main asset.

So this would be an instance of several things - of a star player not having sufficient quality or intelligence around him at times; of a star playing being over-relied on, relied on as an easy way out; of a genuine top class player with a range of abilities being almost typecast, with more limited individuals playing only to his perceived strengths, so that it ends up limiting the player. Which is just to give an instance of a star player being a blessing but being misused.

@Otto

Are you aware of the fact that last year in Bremen after the 15th match day Klo$e already scored 10 goals together with Diego, but only 9 at Super Bayern with Ribery & Co? (In each case in 13 of 15 matches)
Apart from that his Kicker ratings were much better back then than this season.

Maybe you should start a moaning thread about Ribery now?

Sanogo btw scored 7 goals in 11 matches in the Bundesliga so far, but also 4 goals in the CL this season. Two more goals in the CL and he already has achieved what Klo$e took three years...

Sanogo looks very good. Where is he from? Ivory Coast?

@chrissi

I tend to agree that Ribery is VERY entertaining and technically brilliant BUT actually not that good when it comes to end-product or team-dynamics

his assist-goal-stats are absolutely mediocre

Sanogo meanwhile thrives in the current Werder set-up

fair-enough

it might very well also be the case that he is FAR more compatible with Diego than Klose ever was

don't take that as a reflection of Klose's quality though

it's also interesting to see how prolific Klose has suddenly become in the UEFA Cup with Bayern

sure , there is a slight difference between the CL and the UEFA Cup, but don't overcook it

should make you wonder what when wrong at Bremen

and please remind me how you interpret WErder's excellent display against Real WITHOUT Diego

Otto makes a good point here. Sometimes if a player is assumed to be so good and has spent some time at the club, its almost as though the other players expect that one man to alter the game.

Its beginning to happen at Man Utd with Ronaldo - its no coincidence that they've been losing when he hasn't been playing.

It was also true in the past at Barca. When Dihno had an off game, so did the entire team.

Coming back to Utd though, I think they have enough quality, and as do Barca now, for it not to matter. Rooney and Scholes, and to a certain degree Tevez can fulfill the ronaldo role.

In the past for England the star man was Beckham and for a period everyone would give him the ball and expect him to produce miracles.

Look at France during WC 2002 - ZZ gets injured, we go out in the first round.

Tweesus of Nazareth wrote:Otto makes a good point here. Sometimes if a player is assumed to be so good and has spent some time at the club, its almost as though the other players expect that one man to alter the game.

Its beginning to happen at Man Utd with Ronaldo - its no coincidence that they've been losing when he hasn't been playing.

It was also true in the past at Barca. When Dihno had an off game, so did the entire team.

Coming back to Utd though, I think they have enough quality, and as do Barca now, for it not to matter. Rooney and Scholes, and to a certain degree Tevez can fulfill the ronaldo role.

In the past for England the star man was Beckham and for a period everyone would give him the ball and expect him to produce miracles.

These players should be considered on the periphery of being “World Class” if they individual skill and guile wins their teams games, but there is a case of over dependent if their consistent enough they would be labelled World Class. As for Cristiano Ronaldo I think he missed 4 league games this season (Manchester United lost 2 and won 2 the defeats were by 1 goal and Manchester United had chances to equalise), does not paint the whole story his absence does not mean Manchester United are heavily reliant on him, its just great players if you have them play them if they are absent you would miss them. I call this the ‘Cantona syndrome’ his phenomenal (no other words to describe) presence and genius guided Manchester United to win the Premiership in the 1995/96 season. His absence was huge. [The Return] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwhcvgo4rYk Rooney, Scholes and Tevez as you have mentioned can fall into the same bracket, again these are 1st teamers due to their brilliance as players. But there are teams who have that ‘one special player’ and he could bring the best out of the rest, like Van der Vaart at HSV.

36-0tto wrote:
should make you wonder what when wrong at Bremen

and please remind me how you interpret WErder's excellent display against Real WITHOUT Diego

Well, Klo$e had only one UEFA Cup season in Bremen. And we all know why Klose suddenly decided to play so badly...

My explaination for our recent great performances is that we have a great team spirit, good back-up players and a great coach, who brings out the best in everyone. That makes it possible for us to replace even players like Frings and Diego, at least for some time.

It´s not over the top however when I say, that it was Diego who kept us on track in difficult times, especially at the beginning of the season, and he won us the CL qualification against Dynamo Zagreb almost single handedly, which was very important.

Apart from that, in all his time in Bremen he was not one day injured or ill, he only missed 2 of about 70 games for us. In 48 Bundesliga games, he scored 20 goals and created 21 assists.

MUCH better effort from Otto, I must say.

Makes the point that having an outstanding star player who your play tends to go through can be a mixed blessing – when they're not there, either the team can not know what to do and be somewhat at a loss, or they can be liberated without the necessity of having to go through said player.

The Zizou example says it all though: maybe a team might be able to play a simpler, faster 4-4-2 style without him, especially when he wasn't on form, but what happened when he suddenly turned it on from the Spain game last summer proved all the cavilling know-it-all critics wrong...

It's a nice idea Otto, but it's too easy just to switch assumptions round in the opposite direction.

@Otto

It´s a bit off-topic here, but since you´re always interested in film recommendations, you´re surely delighted to hear, the first autobiographic movie about your beloved Klo$e will be released shortly.

Schaaf looks a bit scary there!

36-0tto wrote:

let's take the football debate up a notch or two

and discuss

to what extent the role a key player has within the team influences the way he performs and is perceived

think about it this way

EVERYHTING was revolving around Henry when he was at Arsenil

hence he was the star

the moment he left, OTHERS STEPPED UP

once in Barca, where he was merely one of many, Henry became shite

IMO Henry is terminally injured now (if that's even the right tearm) and will not be able to run like he used to. What I mean is that he can still run as fast as he used to but will not be able to run as much as he used to. If you look at his last year at Arsenal and the beginning of Barca everybody is saying he is lazy, which is completely untrue. He used to run around lots and track back effectively being the first line of defence. He used to chase lost causes and make runs just to test the defence and in case a through-ball would come through or even a bad back pass. But his body is gone, he cannot run anymore. All he has now are is his football brain, vision and moments of magic.

Anyhow, Henry leaving is the most important aspect to Arsenal's improvement. IMO the things that have influenced our improvement in order:

1. Ball winner/Energy in CM. Gilberto was and is just a passive player, an interceptor. What he provides to the team is composure and hight. Well we have composure in Cesc and now Flamini and Diarra so that part has become redundant. His hight is not enough to justify his position in the team. Both Flamini and Diarra give us lots of energy and fight that Gilberto never did. They win the ball quicker and higher up the pitch meaning we can counter attach quicker and from more advanced positions.

2. Defence. With Gallas now not eternally injured, and the signing of the ever impressive Sagna our Defence is not only more solid but also more attacking. Gilberto's passing, runs and the ability to play a higher line than Senderos allow us to play even more attacking than we did last season. Sagna is also much more solid than Eboue in terms of positioning and aerial ability, his consistent crossing has also been a plus.

3. Hleb's (and Cesc's) improvement. Hleb has been our star player this season, he has performed in nearly all games including the big games vs L'Pool and ManU. His unorthodox way of dribbling and randon passing is now bearing fruit. Bleunine has stated that Ibrahimavic (sp.) passing has always been good but his teamates were not yet clued up to his genius and now playing and training with him for a season they have caught up. Well I'm starting to think the same of Hleb. Cesc's goal scoring, and general improvement is a major plus to us this season.

4. Energy upfront. Now that the increasingly static Henry has left and been replaced in the starting line-up by the hard working Adebayor we have much more energy upfront. He's a decent target-man in the air but more importantly for Arsenal, on the ground. His passing is inconsistent but when he gets it right, he does get is right. He finishing is as bad as Drogba in his first season in the PL but he makes up for it with spectacular goals.

shazlx-mas wrote:

36-0tto wrote:

let's take the football debate up a notch or two

and discuss

to what extent the role a key player has within the team influences the way he performs and is perceived

think about it this way

EVERYHTING was revolving around Henry when he was at Arsenil

hence he was the star

the moment he left, OTHERS STEPPED UP

once in Barca, where he was merely one of many, Henry became shite

IMO Henry is terminally injured now (if that's even the right tearm) and will not be able to run like he used to. What I mean is that he can still run as fast as he used to but will not be able to run as much as he used to. If you look at his last year at Arsenal and the beginning of Barca everybody is saying he is lazy, which is completely untrue. He used to run around lots and track back effectively being the first line of defence. He used to chase lost causes and make runs just to test the defence and in case a through-ball would come through or even a bad back pass. But his body is gone, he cannot run anymore. All he has now are is his football brain, vision and moments of magic.

Anyhow, Henry leaving is the most important aspect to Arsenal's improvement. IMO the things that have influenced our improvement in order:

1. Ball winner/Energy in CM. Gilberto was and is just a passive player, an interceptor. What he provides to the team is composure and hight. Well we have composure in Cesc and now Flamini and Diarra so that part has become redundant. His hight is not enough to justify his position in the team. Both Flamini and Diarra give us lots of energy and fight that Gilberto never did. They win the ball quicker and higher up the pitch meaning we can counter attach quicker and from more advanced positions.


2. Defence. With Gallas now not eternally injured, and the signing of the ever impressive Sagna our Defence is not only more solid but also more attacking. Gilberto's passing, runs and the ability to play a higher line than Senderos allow us to play even more attacking than we did last season. Sagna is also much more solid than Eboue in terms of positioning and aerial ability, his consistent crossing has also been a plus.

3. Hleb's (and Cesc's) improvement. Hleb has been our star player this season, he has performed in nearly all games including the big games vs L'Pool and ManU. His unorthodox way of dribbling and randon passing is now bearing fruit. Bleunine has stated that Ibrahimavic (sp.) passing has always been good but his teamates were not yet clued up to his genius and now playing and training with him for a season they have caught up. Well I'm starting to think the same of Hleb. Cesc's goal scoring, and general improvement is a major plus to us this season.

4. Energy upfront. Now that the increasingly static Henry has left and been replaced in the starting line-up by the hard working Adebayor we have much more energy upfront. He's a decent target-man in the air but more importantly for Arsenal, on the ground. His passing is inconsistent but when he gets it right, he does get is right. He finishing is as bad as Drogba in his first season in the PL but he makes up for it with spectacular goals.

5. 4-5-1: Playing that formation at home against teams that kept 10 men behind the ball was not a wise move. Worst of all we had a defensive midfielder who barely went forward so we had about 5 defensive players playing against a single striker

Did u read my post the other day?

If u read my post after the psv game last season, i said we should replace gilberto with denilson for the majority of our games. A ball winner or dynamic midfielder has always been important to the way Wenger's teams play - all his succesfull sides had one. What happened when we played without one between 2005-2007 ? we went from a team that always finished in the top 2 to a team that was fighting for a CL place.

Also agree with your point on our defence. How many times did we outplay teams last season only to find ourselves 1-0 down by halftime through a flukey goal from a corner or freekick? our story last season was wasting about 30-40 corners and then end up conceding from the only one the opposition had. It was so annoying. That isn't happening this season, have we concede yet from a corner?

shazlx-mas wrote:

36-0tto wrote:

let's take the football debate up a notch or two

and discuss

to what extent the role a key player has within the team influences the way he performs and is perceived

think about it this way

EVERYHTING was revolving around Henry when he was at Arsenil

hence he was the star

the moment he left, OTHERS STEPPED UP

once in Barca, where he was merely one of many, Henry became shite

IMO Henry is terminally injured now (if that's even the right tearm) and will not be able to run like he used to. What I mean is that he can still run as fast as he used to but will not be able to run as much as he used to. If you look at his last year at Arsenal and the beginning of Barca everybody is saying he is lazy, which is completely untrue. He used to run around lots and track back effectively being the first line of defence. He used to chase lost causes and make runs just to test the defence and in case a through-ball would come through or even a bad back pass. But his body is gone, he cannot run anymore. All he has now are is his football brain, vision and moments of magic.

In reply to my post yesterday about Henry's condition.

I've found an article in the Guardian that elaborates on his injury problems. Considering that I no extra information, I was fairly accurate in my observation. BTW, the last paragraph might interest the Madrid on here.




We were right to buy Henry injured or not, say Barcelona


Sid Lowe in Madrid
Friday December 7, 2007
The Guardian

Marc Ingla yesterday insisted that if he could go back to July he would still buy Thierry Henry, but Barcelona's new vice-president is increasingly in the minority as fears mount over the long-term injury prognosis for the former Arsenal striker.

Henry joined Barça for £16.1m on a four-year contract in July having missed five months of the 2006-07 season with back trouble. A related injury left him unable to face Espanyol last weekend and initial reports said that he would be out of action "indefinitely". Medical staff at Camp Nou said this week that they had been aware of Henry's problems when he was signed, sparking renewed criticism of the size of the transfer fee and the length of the contract given to the 30-year-old.

Although that initial prognosis proved pessimistic, club doctors believe the Frenchman will not be fit to play for at least two more weeks and have warned that his "chronic" condition has no cure and tends to deteriorate with age.

In the absence of the injured Samuel Eto'o, Henry has played more often than expected in the early months of his Barcelona career. He has complained of lower back and hip pain and has now been diagnosed as suffering a dehydration of the intervertebral disc L5-S1 in his lower back, causing lumbar and hip pain. The official report noted that his condition dated back "a number of years".

Medical staff at Barça estimate that he may be fit to face Real Madrid on December 22 but, with Eto'o finally returning, he is likely to be given until the end of the Christmas break to rest. Eto'o's participation in the African Cup of Nations means that Barça will need Henry throughout January.

Barça privately fear that Henry will not be able to cope with the demands of regular games for the remainder of his contract. Independent medical experts have insisted that this is a persistent problem likely to dog him until he retires.

Barcelona's former vice-president Sandro Rosell criticised the club this week for giving Henry a four-year deal. "Whoever signed him deserves a clip round the ear," he said. "He should have been given an exhaustive medical because everyone knows the problems he has had [at Arsenal]." That prompted Barcelona's medical staff to reveal that they had warned the club about Henry's injury.

Catalan columnists have been biting in their criticism, describing Henry's signing as a "huge con" and "massive error". The newspaper El Mundo Deportivo, recalling that Arsène Wenger had made £30m on the sales of Emmanuel Petit and Marc Overmars to Barcelona, said: "Arsenal must be laughing themselves hoarse."