Wigan v Man Utd, Sunday 11 May 2008, 15:00

Bashmachkin wrote:

Roger Hunt wrote:Isn't that precisely what SAF did in 1996 that led to Kevin Keegan's famous 'I would love it' outburst?

Yes, exactly. He called the Leeds players 'cheats', arguing that the only game they tried in all season was against Man Utd, suggesting they wouldn't try in their upcoming game against Newcastle (and that was the game after which Keegan gave his 'I would love it' speech), and claiming that they were letting their manager, Howard Wilkinson, down. And he also questioned the fact that we had agreed to play Nottingham Forest in Stuart Pearce's end of season testimonial, implying this meant we would get an easy time in our upcoming league game against them.

Man Utd fans have no right to criticise anything Chelsea or any other team do or say, unless they're willing to criticise their own team just as severely - whether it's banal psychological mind games, calling opposition cheats, haranguing referees on or off the pitch, Man Utd had it all mastered ten years ago, and they are responsible for such things being so widespread in the Premiership today.

I can criticise them for this case, because strangely enough I've moved on from what happened twelve years ago.

It just seems abit disrespectful of Wigan that they wouldn't take the game seriously and also that they already seemed to have beaten Bolton before they've played them. If they said they expected Wigan to play with pride for the good of English football the same as they expect Bolton to do so I could understand.

Parks lives wrote: I can't imagine Fergie or our players banging on about Bolton taking it seriously.

So you can't imagine Fergie doing something that he's already done in the past? Your imagination is somewhat limited then.

I'm over what happened twelve years ago, but I'm pointing out that Man Utd and Man Utd fans are hypocritical when they complain about other teams doing what they started, what they excelled at and encouraged, all that time ago. Man Utd maybe weren't the first to question the integrity of other teams, weren't the first to harangue referees on and off the pitch, weren't the first to dive, or to play distasteful mind games - but all this blossomed at Man Utd under Ferguson from the mid 90's, and, like I say, Man Utd are largely responsible for this stuff being so widespread in the game today.

Just last week Ferguson was doing the same sort of thing, questioning Chelsea's sportsmanship, attempting to rile Newcastle into a performance just as Chelsea are attempting to rile Wigan into one. He said, 'The way Chelsea have been talking is that it'll be easy up there – but we know that's not the case'. In fact, Chelsea hadn't made any such comments - Ferguson was portraying Chelsea as an arrogant team in an attempt to get Newcastle's backs up, which in itself is a little insulting to Newcastle as well as to Chelsea.

To be fair no one within Manchester United has complained about Grant and Chelsea’s “mind games”. I think Grant questioning what Curbishley wrote set the ball rolling and its understandable and it’s also understandable that West Ham went into the Manchester United game short on players and it will be understandable if they lost the game. I’ve acknowledged that Chelsea have a right to clutch at straws, it be the same if Manchester United were in their position and Grant would be the first to congratulate SAF if Manchester United do beat Wigan this Sunday.

Bashmachkin wrote:

Roger Hunt wrote:Isn't that precisely what SAF did in 1996 that led to Kevin Keegan's famous 'I would love it' outburst?

Yes, exactly. He called the Leeds players 'cheats', arguing that the only game they tried in all season was against Man Utd, suggesting they wouldn't try in their upcoming game against Newcastle (and that was the game after which Keegan gave his 'I would love it' speech), and claiming that they were letting their manager, Howard Wilkinson, down. And he also questioned the fact that we had agreed to play Nottingham Forest in Stuart Pearce's end of season testimonial, implying this meant we would get an easy time in our upcoming league game against them.

Man Utd fans have no right to criticise anything Chelsea or any other team do or say, unless they're willing to criticise their own team just as severely - whether it's banal psychological mind games, calling opposition cheats, haranguing referees on or off the pitch, Man Utd had it all mastered ten years ago, and they are responsible for such things being so widespread in the Premiership today.

All chelsea are doing is copying manu. The manu fans complain about chelsea's money, kenyon's behaviour, e.g. with Mikel, without seeing that they have done the same as chelsea for years before abramovich came along. They also kicked the unbeaten arsenal team off the park a few years ago, and complained about getting the same treatment this season etc. Neither team should have got away with it, but doing it first and then complaining about it when someone does it against you is hypocritical.

When did we complain about getting the rough treatment ala Arsenal?

i didn't imagine all the whinging after gallas kicked lumps out of nani, it was over several threads

Yeah we complained about it like Arsenal did.

Idiot.

Newcastle fans on monday were telling me that steve bruce is going to lie down like a fucking puppy.

I think Wigan will try their best to beat Man Utd but I don't think they will. Hoping for a draw

If Curbishely had come out and said what he said after the Man Utd game there would have been no problem b4 the game was a little bit strange.

Parks lives wrote:Yeah we complained about it like Arsenal did.

Idiot.

no idea what hypocricy means I see

You kick arsenal all over the park, arsenal complain about it, there is no hypocricy yet. It's just complaining about their players being kicked everywhere while they try and play football.

2 years later arsenal decide to copy your tactics and kick you all over the park, you then complain about them doing the same as you have done previously = HYPOCRICY

hope your brain can digest this in a logical manner, there are also many references to hypocricy out there look them up

also great contradiction:

Parks lives wrote:When did we complain about getting the rough treatment ala Arsenal?

Parks lives wrote:Yeah we complained about it like Arsenal did.

Bashmachkin wrote:I'm over what happened twelve years ago, but I'm pointing out that Man Utd and Man Utd fans are hypocritical when they complain about other teams doing what they started, what they excelled at and encouraged, all that time ago. Man Utd maybe weren't the first to question the integrity of other teams, weren't the first to harangue referees on and off the pitch, weren't the first to dive, or to play distasteful mind games - but all this blossomed at Man Utd under Ferguson from the mid 90's, and, like I say, Man Utd are largely responsible for this stuff being so widespread in the game today.

Just last week Ferguson was doing the same sort of thing, questioning Chelsea's sportsmanship, attempting to rile Newcastle into a performance just as Chelsea are attempting to rile Wigan into one. He said, 'The way Chelsea have been talking is that it'll be easy up there – but we know that's not the case'. In fact, Chelsea hadn't made any such comments - Ferguson was portraying Chelsea as an arrogant team in an attempt to get Newcastle's backs up, which in itself is a little insulting to Newcastle as well as to Chelsea.

I thought that was bizarre. I had heard nothing from Chelsea.

Bashmachkin wrote:I'm over what happened twelve years ago, but I'm pointing out that Man Utd and Man Utd fans are hypocritical when they complain about other teams doing what they started, what they excelled at and encouraged, all that time ago. Man Utd maybe weren't the first to question the integrity of other teams

You really are not.

And it was true. Every team raised their game when Man Utd played them. I'd say most still do, but with a 'top 4' at least in the mind it's now less common than before... when really it was just Man Utd and whoever was challenging them that particular year.

I don't get your point? every week i see hypocrisy from a bunch of people who claim Man Utd get every decision from the ref, yet say nothing for a few weeks when the complete oppisite happens. So because 12 years ago Ferguson questioned why teams tend to try harder against Man Utd, these days Man Utd fans cannot complain about anything along those lines, even in completly different circumstances which is the case here?

I think they can say what they like, but also think you're talking bollocks

The circumstances aren't different at all - one team is questioning another's commitment and honesty, hoping that this will rile them into performing - and Ferguson is just as bad today as he was twelve years ago. The only difference is that now other managers play the same sort of game, following Ferguson's bad influence. Man Utd fans are hypocrites and wrong to complain about Chelsea, unless they're ready to accept that Ferguson is at least as bad as anyone else when it comes to making distasteful comments and trying to gain an influence over teams and referees.

There is no proof that SAF is controlling the FA by means of extortion.

Finally,



Fergie: What about Bolton?

---------------------------------------------------------------

Wily Manchester United manager Sir Alex Ferguson has attempted to shift the focus away from Wigan Athletic and onto Bolton Wanderers ahead of a nervous last day of the Premier League season.

While much has been made of how committed Wigan Athletic, managed by former Red Devil Steve Bruce, will be after securing their safety, Bolton find themselves in a similar position at Chelsea.

Unless The Trotters are handed a real thrashing and results go against them elsewhere, Gary Megson's side are also virtually certain of playing Premier League football next season after their win over Sunderland.

Ferguson has heard tales of Bolton players partying all week and drinking at Chester races, where he attended, but is hoping Wanderers can provide a stern test for Chelsea's credentials at Stamford Bridge.

"Well, I think that's been generated by all of you wonderful people in the press as all you're talking about is the integrity of Wigan," asserted Ferguson.

"Nobody's questioned Bolton, not even mentioned Bolton.

"It's interesting with the different attitudes because you've all got Wigan players saying they want to beat Manchester United. Fine, I've no problem with that. We're a big club.

"But you hear about Bolton players out celebrating all week.

"That amazes me, that change in attitude. Both teams are safe, both teams are relaxed but one can celebrate and one is all keyed up to play against Manchester United?

"The only thing I think about Bolton what gives me confidence in them is the manager and the assistant manager.

"I had Archie Knox for many years at Aberdeen and United and I wish he was playing actually!

"He will not enjoy having his players out celebrating and neither will Gary Megson when it's an important game for the game."

Poor mind games by SAF, the reason people are talking about the Man Utd game is because that is where there needs to be result before anything else can happen.

Bit of a strange way of looking at it.

Chelsea have to win before anything else surely?

wel Bolton aren't safe, and if Chelsea want to win the title they need to win 20-0

A 20-0 defeat would seriosuly damange Bolton's goal difference and could send them down, so I think they'll want to avoid this.

Of course but the Chelsea game means nothing until such a point that Man Utd are in trouble i.e a decent way into the match.

The BBC frame Ferguson's comments as 'Ferguson has faith in Bolton' doesn't really sound like it

Wigan midfielder Kevin Kilbane has been told to rest after struggling for weeks with a back problem so he misses out.

Defenders Mario Melchiot and Erik Edman remain sidelined as Wigan attempt to their opponents the league title.

Manchester United striker Wayne Rooney (hip) is unlikely to start but could make the substitutes' bench.

Nemanja Vidic has been cleared to play by United's medical team and will feature should he come through the remaining training sessions unscathed.

Wigan (from): Kirkland, Taylor, Scharner, Boyce, Valencia, Brown, Palacios, Koumas, Bent, Heskey, King, Sibierski, Skoko, Pollitt, Bramble, Figueroa, Hagen, Aghahowa, Olembe.

Man Utd (from): Van der Sar, Kuszczak, Foster, Neville, Hargreaves, Brown, Ferdinand, Vidic, Pique, O'Shea, Evra, Silvestre, Ronaldo, Fletcher, Carrick, Scholes, Anderson, Giggs, Park, Tevez, Rooney.
_________________________________________________________

Should Rooney be on the bench if he is 60% fit?

With Vidic back? would you change the current back four for the Wigan game?

Not sure about Vidic. Brown's done really well since playing at centre back, of course Vidic is a better player but is it worth the risk of unsettling the back line?

How would it unsettle the backline? We are talking about a returning player not a new player. All the players will be playing the positions they have played for the majority of the season, assuming Brown goes to RB and Hargreaves to the bench.

Glenn Hysén wrote:
A 20-0 defeat would seriosuly damange Bolton's goal difference

This should get the Mark Lawrenson award for 'most obvious punditry of the week'...

Parks lives wrote:Bit of a strange way of looking at it.

Chelsea have to win before anything else surely?

Jesus spank your powers of logical thinking are severely limited

The focus has been on the united game because united are the leaders. The first thing people will look to is how the leaders are going to slip up. Throw in the Bruce connection and wigan being safe and you have a story

Do you need everything explained to you ?

robert wrote:How would it unsettle the backline? We are talking about a returning player not a new player. All the players will be playing the positions they have played for the majority of the season, assuming Brown goes to RB and Hargreaves to the bench.

It's more if he's still not fully fit.

He's done several training sessions. Obviously if he not fully fit then rather brown.

Man Utd starting line-up?

I think SAF should and will play the same team that started against Barcelona and West Ham:



But who should replace the suspended Nani?

Hargreaves: Brown - RB, Vidic - CB

Giggs: 4-4-2/4-2-3-1

Anderson: 4-3-3/4-2-3-1

If fit, Vidic straight back in the team, with Brown/Hargreaves RB?

I’d play this:



Vidic needs minutes under his belt in time for the CL final.