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Axeslammer
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    Man. Utd. make $110 million loss; $1.5 billion in debt!!!

    Football Genius
    Football Genius


    Number of posts : 7743
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    Man. Utd. make $110 million loss; $1.5 billion in debt!!! - Page 3 Empty Re: Man. Utd. make $110 million loss; $1.5 billion in debt!!!

    Post by Football Genius Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:15 pm

    "but i have no idea what he's on about"

    Well there we go, should have just said really eh LRD?

    I requested a analysis of the above figures in comparison to its competitors...

    Why you assume that should favour Liverpool is beyond me, there is more than enough ammunition to attack Liverpool FC with, i simply request your analysis, and then debate..

    Rather 'you don't understand' which to be fair, we all expected...
    Deluded F*ck™
    Deluded F*ck™


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    Post by Deluded F*ck™ Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:16 pm

    Axeslammer wrote:
    L-r d wrote:FG i don't think you should go on the internet.

    Just because he's raping one of your Man U buddies ?

    I think it's excellent entertainment seeing Saints getting owned Ale

    Insulting someone is owning them? scratch
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    L r dd


    Number of posts : 12451
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    Man. Utd. make $110 million loss; $1.5 billion in debt!!! - Page 3 Empty Re: Man. Utd. make $110 million loss; $1.5 billion in debt!!!

    Post by L r dd Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:17 pm

    I understand the BBC article very well. That's a worrying level of debt and i'll doubt you'll see a new stadium for a very long time. Have a nice day Ale
    Deluded F*ck™
    Deluded F*ck™


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    Post by Deluded F*ck™ Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:19 pm

    Meh, all the big 4 are financially doped. It's like a body-building contest, "he's using more juice than me!" Sad
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    stinger


    Number of posts : 6477
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    Man. Utd. make $110 million loss; $1.5 billion in debt!!! - Page 3 Empty Re: Man. Utd. make $110 million loss; $1.5 billion in debt!!!

    Post by stinger Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:21 pm

    MadVillain™️ wrote:Meh, all the big 4 are financially doped. It's like a body-building contest, "he's using more juice than me!" Sad
    No, God no, they don't do things like this - http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/all-spo-bodybuilders-flee-0518,0,1466144.story

    lol!

    Sorry if it was posted before.
    Football Genius
    Football Genius


    Number of posts : 7743
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    Post by Football Genius Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:23 pm

    L-r d wrote:I understand the BBC article very well. That's a worrying level of debt and i'll doubt you'll see a new stadium for a very long time. Have a nice day Ale

    Forget the BBC article, read how that breaks down, this is how the 'parent company' has accumulated the loss, then analyse and respond.

    I take by your response this is a step too far for you?

    Perhaps also why, as Man United parent company made an equal loss yet generated nearly twice as much revenue, you don't see this as a potential problem, particularly when SAF will surely in the near future leave and not recognise how you need injection of capital within any project / programme to get it started.

    The reason you don't understand has nothing to do with me 'rambling on' more so your inability to recognise the business behind my points.


    Last edited by Football Genius on Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    L r dd


    Number of posts : 12451
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    Man. Utd. make $110 million loss; $1.5 billion in debt!!! - Page 3 Empty Re: Man. Utd. make $110 million loss; $1.5 billion in debt!!!

    Post by L r dd Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:23 pm

    MadVillain™️ wrote:Meh, all the big 4 are financially doped. It's like a body-building contest, "he's using more juice than me!" Sad

    We aint all run by Jews <Ale> Oh wait..... Biggrin I actually was writing that response forgetting for a second.

    Anyway it's not an argument about oh you got more debt blah blah blah. It's just a bizarre way to react to an article written by the BBC don't ya think?

    Liverpool badly need a new stadium and i don't see it happening.
    Football Genius
    Football Genius


    Number of posts : 7743
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    Post by Football Genius Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:28 pm

    LRD what is Liverpool's ROCE? - (return on capital employed)

    Just ONE analysis you can make...

    If that is Jargon to you... then goodbye.. no?
    Deluded F*ck™
    Deluded F*ck™


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    Post by Deluded F*ck™ Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:31 pm

    The thing about the new/refurbished Stadia is that for the clubs it's not really a factor of capacity but the amount of corporate boxes they can squeeze in. these are the big payers in terms of matchday revenue, aside from TV rights. one of the main reasons why Liverpool have fallen so far behind ManRed in terms of finances, (apart from worldwide marketing), is that Anfield has very few corporate boxes in comparison to Old Trafford.

    A comparison of Gate and Match Day Receipts and Debt are pretty good indications of which clubs are going to survive in the long term and Spurs figure of £26.8M shows why we desperately need the new larger stadium if we want to grow.
    Football Genius
    Football Genius


    Number of posts : 7743
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    Post by Football Genius Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:38 pm

    MadVillain™️ wrote:The thing about the new/refurbished Stadia is that for the clubs it's not really a factor of capacity but the amount of corporate boxes they can squeeze in. these are the big payers in terms of matchday revenue, aside from TV rights. one of the main reasons why Liverpool have fallen so far behind ManRed in terms of finances, (apart from worldwide marketing), is that Anfield has very few corporate boxes in comparison to Old Trafford.

    A comparison of Gate and Match Day Receipts and Debt are pretty good indications of which clubs are going to survive in the long term and Spurs figure of £26.8M shows why we desperately need the new larger stadium if we want to grow.

    United have around 160 odd corperate boxes, wheres Anfield holds i think 47..

    So what you state is very accurate, because the proportionate revenue a corporate box brings home is quite significant.

    A question: Why do you think Wembley holds so many seats / boxes for its sponsors?... because of the revenue these deals produce.
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    L r dd


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    Post by L r dd Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:17 am

    LIVERPOOL were facing financial meltdown last night.

    The club's accountants issued a chilling statement admitting there is 'significant doubt' whether the company which runs the Merseysiders can 'continue as a going concern'.

    Liverpool's parent company Kop Football (Holdings) Ltd, run by American duo George Gillett and Tom Hicks, made a £42.6million loss last year.

    Around £36.5m of that is interest payments on the whopping £350m loan they took out to refinance the club.

    A top City analyst said: "Unless the owners find more money, the club is facing financial meltdown. Not only are the figures bleak, the future is gloomy too.

    "The more you read through the accounts, the more transparent it is that the owners don't have the resources to meet the targets they've set for next year either.

    "Everyone associated with Liverpool should be deeply concerned by this set of figures."

    The devastating news will intensify calls from fans for the US pair to sell up.

    As things stand, any profits being made on the pitch are being swallowed up by the crippling repayments on the loan.

    The disastrous figures not only place the club's future in jeopardy, they also have serious side-effects for boss Rafa Benitez. The scale of the financial woes casts a huge question-mark over whether Benitez will have any significant money to spend this summer.

    He has already been 'blown out of the water' by Manchester City in the race for long-term target Gareth Barry this week.

    Other big-money targets, like David Silva, Glen Johnson and even Carlos Tevez, look unlikely to materialise this summer.

    The club's accountants, KPMG, outlined their concerns by saying: "The group has credit facilities amounting to £350m, which expire on 24 July 2009.

    "The directors have initiated negotiations to secure the replacement finance required by the group and these negotiations are ongoing.

    "These conditions... indicate the existence of a material uncertainty which may cast significant doubt on the group's and parent company's ability to continue as a going concern."

    Sources close to Gillett and Hicks last night said they re- mained confident of securing the refinancing deal and are also still in talks with possible investors.

    But only in April the Hicks Sports Group defaulted on repaying loans totalling £354m for his other sports ventures in the States.

    Before the Americans' £219m takeover in 2007, Liverpool were close to a deal with Arab investors Dubai International Capital.

    Then, in January this year, Kuwaiti billionaire Nasser Al-Kharafi offered £425m for overall control.

    But the Americans only want to sell 50 per cent and hopes of a deal collapsed.
    Football Genius
    Football Genius


    Number of posts : 7743
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    Post by Football Genius Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:22 am

    So pretty much the same 'media statement' as Saints..

    LRD would you perhaps like to expand on WHY, yes the key work WHY... the loss (given that i've provided you the breakdown throughout the parent company) as to WHY this article is relevant...

    To my knowledge none of you Man United fans have broken down your parent companies finances in the way i have provided...

    Re-emphasising what Saints has said, more-so says to me you're an idiot... ANALYSE THE FACTS PLEASE.
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    L r dd


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    Post by L r dd Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:30 am

    I believe you're very much the idiot. It's not in my interest to read 323 lines of nonsense. What is in my interest is that most news companies and newspapers seem to be running with this and a top City analyst or two seem to have a fairly expert view i'd assume.

    The funny thing is you are the same plonker who posted false and bizarre claims and articles claiming the Glazers were close to a billion in debt with Man Utd. Since proven otherwise.

    We'll see if you get your new stadium when it all goes tits up i expect an apology from you.
    Football Genius
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    Post by Football Genius Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:34 am

    L-r d wrote:I believe you're very much the idiot. It's not in my interest to read 323 lines of nonsense. What is in my interest is that most news companies and newspapers seem to be running with this and a top City analyst or two seem to have a fairly expert view i'd assume.

    The funny thing is you are the same plonker who posted false and bizarre claims and articles claiming the Glazers were close to a billion in debt with Man Utd. Since proven otherwise.

    We'll see if you get your new stadium when it all goes tits up i expect an apology from you.

    The same 'top city analyst' who may work for Barclays, or HSBC, or RBS etc...

    i ask YOU to anaylse the TRANSPARENT figures i've produced, you not only do not do that...

    You fail to even compare your own...
    Football Genius
    Football Genius


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    Post by Football Genius Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:35 am

    I am all ears

    Do enlighten me LRD, master of all...
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    Glenarch of the Glen


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    Post by Glenarch of the Glen Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:43 am

    L-r d wrote: a top City analyst or two seem to have a fairly expert view i'd assume.

    lol
    Aristoskank
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    Post by Aristoskank Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:14 pm

    Bad cop:

    Football Genius wrote:Business response please... cut the bullshit.

    Good cop:

    Football Genius wrote:Saints will wipe the floor with what you can produce...

    The beat goes on.


    Anyway, since you insist on me telling you what I actually make of the figures and what they imply about how Liverpool is being run and where they are headed I'll tell you.

    The most signficant thing is that Liverpool have the lowest revenue of all of the top four clubs, though obviously the figures are a little out of date but I doubt that much has changed in the intervening period. Liverpool at around £160 million are still among the very top bracket, but with Chelsea and Arsenal hitting 200 million and Man U streaking ahead with around 250 million there isn't a level playing field even up there on that top bracket.

    The breakdown from 06/07 across the top four shows that while Liverpool's media income was virtually identical to Arsenal's it was a fair bit behind Man U's, though of course Man U had a more successful season so I'm assuming that includes prize money which ultimately comes from media revenues. The big difference is matchday income, where Liverpool lag so far behind Man U and Arsenal it's clear that a larger, more lucrative stadium is the way forward.

    As a result, though Liverpool have invested massive sums in their playing squad they have had to sell significant numbers of players to finance much of this, and have the lowest wage bill (around half of Chelsea's and 3/4 of Man U's) of the top four. One might say Benitez is doing a better job than Wenger on a very similar budget.

    Despite these struggles, the club itself still makes a modest pre-tax profit. Where the losses come in is with the debt of the parent club, the debt incurred by the Yanks so they could buy the club. It's not dissimilar to Man U's situation - a profitable club seeing those profit disappear to service the debts of the owners. Nonetheless, this is how most big businesses with steady revenues are run - they borrow against future earnings to enable whatever it is they want to do today. Indeed, our entire economy is based on this strategy.

    However, the numbers for Liverpool aren't as bad as they are for Man U, the total debt is around half and the interest payments less than half, though losing over £40 million a year (on a business with an income around 4 times that) is not good news. As mentioned earlier, Liverpool have by some distance (approximately £40 million) the lowest income of the top four and therefore in theory the most room for expansion.

    Refinancing the debt could prove very difficult in the current climate, though they seem to be paying a high rate of interest (not as high as the hedge funds who financed the Glazers buying of Man U, but still high) so maybe there's room for improvement there this summer.

    What I would do in their situation is sell a minor stake in the club so they can either pay down some of the debt or get the new stadium ready. As things currently stand, Liverpool are borrowing money every year to cover the fact they can't pay the interest on existing debts. Obviously that cannot continue indefinitely, so they need to either reduce the debt or significantly increase revenue, or ideally both. I can't see how they'll manage that while retaining a 100% stake in the club. Even more so for the Glazers at Man U.
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    Post by Rosicky Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:46 pm

    I am disappointed FG hasnt asked Saints for a boxing match yet, like he did with Parky.

    Lerd was going to film it was well Sad

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