http://empower-sport.com/index.php?categoryid=1&p2_articleid=164
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Ä
EMP
6 posters
Germany 2004 & South Africa now
EMP- Number of posts : 7384
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- Post n°1
Germany 2004 & South Africa now
Just seen this article comparing Germany in 2004 to South Africa now. What do people think, especially Germans and Africans.
http://empower-sport.com/index.php?categoryid=1&p2_articleid=164
http://empower-sport.com/index.php?categoryid=1&p2_articleid=164
Ä- Number of posts : 11028
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- Post n°2
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
regarding Germany the article is Cr@p, although blut and chrissi will tell you otherwise
the quality of players we had in 2004 was just fine, ditto in 2006, which is, incidentally, almost the identical team that Voeller had already played with
ie: ZERO Klinsi revolution
our style of play, was more influenced by playing at home, in front of thousands of fanatical fans than by Klinsi
and it was , comparitively, NOT successful
no idea about SA though
the quality of players we had in 2004 was just fine, ditto in 2006, which is, incidentally, almost the identical team that Voeller had already played with
ie: ZERO Klinsi revolution
our style of play, was more influenced by playing at home, in front of thousands of fanatical fans than by Klinsi
and it was , comparitively, NOT successful
no idea about SA though
blutgraetsche- Number of posts : 23328
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- Post n°3
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
EMP, I sent you my view on the article via PM.
EMP- Number of posts : 7384
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- Post n°4
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
blutgraetsche wrote:
EMP, I sent you my view on the article via PM.
I know Blut, Post it here if you like. This deserves proper discussion. Do you mind if I post it. Won't without your approval.
blutgraetsche- Number of posts : 23328
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- Post n°5
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
Second, the article that compared South Africa's preparations for the WC with Germany' earlier was well written also. The standard of coaching is indeed a problem, and could explain South Africa's lack of success indeed. It is still a problem in Germany also, but fortunately, reforms have been made, and the next generation of German managers will have a much better tactical education than the current one.
Egypt as a role model for the other African nations makes a lot of sense also, although it takes time to build a professional league like that.
The part about the philosophical aspect of the game (Germany concentrating on mental strenght and fitness) is good also, albeit a bit stereotypical. The 1970s team that played brilliant football did build a legacy, because it is still seen as the best German national team ever, and was followed by the late 70s / 80s team of Schuster, Allofs, Müller and co. which was great also, in a time when the Bundesliga was undoubtedly the strongest league in Europe, and always the most attacking league of the big leagues.
The philosophical change came during the 1980s, the 1982 WC match between Italy and Brazil had a huge philosophical impact, because it meant the end of the "romatic" football approach, replaced by a pragmatic one. Italian football became dominant, the league overtook the others and became the strongest. That is one of the reasons why German football started to emphasise mental strenght and fighting spirit, in addition to a solid defence and 'pragmatic' football. But our roots, despite the 1954 win (a team which was very attacking btw., scored goals galore in that tournament, and should not definied by a single match against an all time great team in the final) were always attacking and positive, that's why Germans often loathed their national team when they won matches 'unfairly' in their eyes. Klinsmann just went back to our roots.
South Africa could learn a lot from the 'risky' approach Germany took after the 2004 disaster, and it remains to be seen if Santana is the right man indeed, a guy who basically has no clue about African football. I wish them the best, and hope that we will have a great WC in 2010, the first in Africa.
There you go.
Otto will be fuming now...
Ä- Number of posts : 11028
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- Post n°6
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
ah, and Klinsi is totally evil
think about it
think about it
Ä- Number of posts : 11028
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- Post n°7
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
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I'm fuming now
I'm fuming now
EMP- Number of posts : 7384
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- Post n°8
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
What are you going to do now that he is coach of your team Otto?
EMP- Number of posts : 7384
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- Post n°9
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
Stop fuming and explain why he is wrong in your opinion, both the article and Blut's response to it.
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- Post n°10
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
EMP wrote:What are you going to do now that he is coach of your team Otto?
Klinsi at Bayern could work
or not
NOBODY knows
not even me
I think he will be good news for the German players
but he needs success and he needs it fast
as Germany manager he had Loew who was the brains of the operation
now he has a totally unknown youngish Mexican
Rummenigge and Hoeness are happy now, but if Bayern don't win the league and challenge in the CL, Klinsi can pack his suitcase PRONTO
it's a HUGE gamble
could work though
------------------------
as for Klinsi at Germany, blut and I have been over it TOO many times in the Nationalmannschaft thread
katsche-1974- Number of posts : 55
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- Post n°11
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
@Blut
I think there is much in this article that can (or needs to) be discussed. But first about what you called correctly the philosophical aspect. I remember the '82 WC game Brazil vs Italy very well. But I don't have the impression that Germany's football learned "fighting spirit" from the Italians. It was possibly more the other way round. An example: I had been watching a European tie in Italy in the late 70's. The Italian team lost to a Spanish one and the Italian fans complained that their team lacks a "German fighting spirit".
Philosophically (for me) the key sentence of that article is, that "technical skills were appreciated but not essential". What do you think about this?
I think there is much in this article that can (or needs to) be discussed. But first about what you called correctly the philosophical aspect. I remember the '82 WC game Brazil vs Italy very well. But I don't have the impression that Germany's football learned "fighting spirit" from the Italians. It was possibly more the other way round. An example: I had been watching a European tie in Italy in the late 70's. The Italian team lost to a Spanish one and the Italian fans complained that their team lacks a "German fighting spirit".
Philosophically (for me) the key sentence of that article is, that "technical skills were appreciated but not essential". What do you think about this?
katsche-1974- Number of posts : 55
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- Post n°12
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
@fuming Otto
I have been watching Bayern's play since the early 70's and I am really pleased that Klinsmann is taking over now. Hitzfeld left a team that is proper setup. He corrected Magath's strategic failures. But now it is time to do something new.
Bayern (i.e. Hoeness, Rummenigge) wants to return among the top clubs in Europe. So it is necessary to implement new concepts. Who else than Klinsmann should do this.
It is a chance not a risk!
Btw: Have read Bernhard Peter's book recently. I recommend this to you.
I have been watching Bayern's play since the early 70's and I am really pleased that Klinsmann is taking over now. Hitzfeld left a team that is proper setup. He corrected Magath's strategic failures. But now it is time to do something new.
Bayern (i.e. Hoeness, Rummenigge) wants to return among the top clubs in Europe. So it is necessary to implement new concepts. Who else than Klinsmann should do this.
It is a chance not a risk!
Btw: Have read Bernhard Peter's book recently. I recommend this to you.
blutgraetsche- Number of posts : 23328
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- Post n°13
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
@katsche-1974
I didn't mean to say that Germans learned 'fighting spirit' from the Italians, I think you misunderstood me - fighting spirit was always one of the key elements of our game. What I was trying to say is that the 'pragmatic' approach became dominant in the 1980s due to the rise of Italian football, and the influence it had on the game as a whole. Football in general became more tactical, more defensive minded, more 'pragmatic'.
One of the strenghts of German football always used to be learning from others and being flexible tactically. Even in the early days of the 'new' Bundesliga, we had foreign coaches in the league (some of them very influential and successful, you as a Bayern fan should know this).
I'd say that for too long, the myth that we always won titles due to our mental strenght, fighting / team spirit alone dominated the philosophical view in this country. A lot of influential Germans actually believed this nonsense, and 'forgot' that every successful team of ours was blessed with enormous individual talent. You can say that the article is right in this respect, and call this a 'romantic' view on football from the German perspective, the antithesis to the old 'romantic' Brazilian approach - while Brazil believed that their superior individualists would be 'enough' to win (1982 the prime example), Germans believed the same about their superior mentality.
But even at the height of 'pragmatism', technical skills were more than just appreciated, players like Littbarski adored, for example, so I can't fully agree with that sentence. And Germany is a big footballing nation, with quite a few influential clubs and 'schools' - while in the Ruhrgebiet, the fans always tended to prefer the 'fighters', and often (not always, Libuda as a prime example) didn't appreciate the more technical players ('Fummler'), the same was not necessarily the case in other areas.
I didn't mean to say that Germans learned 'fighting spirit' from the Italians, I think you misunderstood me - fighting spirit was always one of the key elements of our game. What I was trying to say is that the 'pragmatic' approach became dominant in the 1980s due to the rise of Italian football, and the influence it had on the game as a whole. Football in general became more tactical, more defensive minded, more 'pragmatic'.
One of the strenghts of German football always used to be learning from others and being flexible tactically. Even in the early days of the 'new' Bundesliga, we had foreign coaches in the league (some of them very influential and successful, you as a Bayern fan should know this).
I'd say that for too long, the myth that we always won titles due to our mental strenght, fighting / team spirit alone dominated the philosophical view in this country. A lot of influential Germans actually believed this nonsense, and 'forgot' that every successful team of ours was blessed with enormous individual talent. You can say that the article is right in this respect, and call this a 'romantic' view on football from the German perspective, the antithesis to the old 'romantic' Brazilian approach - while Brazil believed that their superior individualists would be 'enough' to win (1982 the prime example), Germans believed the same about their superior mentality.
But even at the height of 'pragmatism', technical skills were more than just appreciated, players like Littbarski adored, for example, so I can't fully agree with that sentence. And Germany is a big footballing nation, with quite a few influential clubs and 'schools' - while in the Ruhrgebiet, the fans always tended to prefer the 'fighters', and often (not always, Libuda as a prime example) didn't appreciate the more technical players ('Fummler'), the same was not necessarily the case in other areas.
katsche-1974- Number of posts : 55
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- Post n°14
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
@blutgraetsche
Thanks for this interesting reply. You are right, there are too many 'schools' and clubs to make a generally accepted statement about German football. It is always easy to find a counter-example. Just think of the opposition Bayern Munich vs B. Moenchengladbach in the early 70's. And btw. Bayern is an example of pragmatism and skill and talent long time before the Italians of the 80's. And the great national team of 1972 may have been the perfect synthesis of Bayern's pragmatism and Gladbach's enthusiasm (not to mention the individual class of the players).
Thanks for this interesting reply. You are right, there are too many 'schools' and clubs to make a generally accepted statement about German football. It is always easy to find a counter-example. Just think of the opposition Bayern Munich vs B. Moenchengladbach in the early 70's. And btw. Bayern is an example of pragmatism and skill and talent long time before the Italians of the 80's. And the great national team of 1972 may have been the perfect synthesis of Bayern's pragmatism and Gladbach's enthusiasm (not to mention the individual class of the players).
blutgraetsche- Number of posts : 23328
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Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
Yes, the 1972 national team was simply perfect, and should be the benchmark for every generation to come.
You could see Bayern as 'pragmatic' by German standards back then, because Mönchengladbach was simply even more attacking , but honestly, that would not do them justice. Bayern at their height in the 1970s used to be very dominant also, probably more 'pragmatic' than Gladbach, but very attacking minded also.
Those were the days really, Bayern were actually likeable.
You could see Bayern as 'pragmatic' by German standards back then, because Mönchengladbach was simply even more attacking , but honestly, that would not do them justice. Bayern at their height in the 1970s used to be very dominant also, probably more 'pragmatic' than Gladbach, but very attacking minded also.
Those were the days really, Bayern were actually likeable.
katsche-1974- Number of posts : 55
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Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
What went wrong then in German football? The national team and club football decreased. And even Bayern became unlikeable!
blutgraetsche- Number of posts : 23328
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Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
Well, the national team continued to be very successful, won the EC in 1980 (with great football I might add, a very underrated team), was in three consecutive World Cup finals between 1982 and 1990, won the WC in 1990. But the league lost its dominant status, and while we continued to produce great talent, it simply was not as outstanding as it was in the 1970s.
In the 1980s, the 'Panzer' stereotype was born (never really more than just a stereotype), the German national team had a completely different image prior to that. Now we were seen as 'cynical pragmatists', as 'efficient' and 'robotic'. It was a shame really, but a lot of it had probably to do with our enormous success and therefore jealousy - we were simply too successful, while less dominant and 'adventurous' than we were in the decade before, making our success less 'tolerable'.
I'm glad that due to Klinsmann, we went back to our roots. There is a reason why Germans love their national team these days, and even forgive them their failure in 2006 - deep down, the vast majority of Germans prefers an attacking philosophy. Always have, always will. The Ribbeck and Völler days were torture for many (except otto)...
In the 1980s, the 'Panzer' stereotype was born (never really more than just a stereotype), the German national team had a completely different image prior to that. Now we were seen as 'cynical pragmatists', as 'efficient' and 'robotic'. It was a shame really, but a lot of it had probably to do with our enormous success and therefore jealousy - we were simply too successful, while less dominant and 'adventurous' than we were in the decade before, making our success less 'tolerable'.
I'm glad that due to Klinsmann, we went back to our roots. There is a reason why Germans love their national team these days, and even forgive them their failure in 2006 - deep down, the vast majority of Germans prefers an attacking philosophy. Always have, always will. The Ribbeck and Völler days were torture for many (except otto)...
katsche-1974- Number of posts : 55
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- Post n°18
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
I agree with the most you say. But I think the reason for the desastrous ECs 2000 and 2004 is based on the disregarded youth development. The success of 2002 is another case.
And so I think the article rightfully stresses the parallels of Germany 2004 and South Africa now. Despite this there may be different reasons for this situation as Germany always used to be top in coach education. So why had the DFB such problems to find a capable manager?
And so I think the article rightfully stresses the parallels of Germany 2004 and South Africa now. Despite this there may be different reasons for this situation as Germany always used to be top in coach education. So why had the DFB such problems to find a capable manager?
blutgraetsche- Number of posts : 23328
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- Post n°19
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
Of course it was down to neglecting our youth education for too long, I always emphasised this myself. In retrospect, the EC 2000 disaster was a blessing in disguise, because it made the DFB realise that reforms were absolutely necessary. We see the results of those reforms today - a lot of very talented youngsters coming through, our youth teams doing well etc.
Germany did not just neglect the youth education, but the education of our managers also. We simply lost the tactical edge we once had, became too conservative, unlike in the early days of modern football, we simply stopped adopting new ideas and trends, learning from others, one of our oldest strenghts.
That's why reforms in this area are very important also, and the DFB has actually introduced them just recently. I posted an article in the Mannschaft thread about this yesterday.
Germany did not just neglect the youth education, but the education of our managers also. We simply lost the tactical edge we once had, became too conservative, unlike in the early days of modern football, we simply stopped adopting new ideas and trends, learning from others, one of our oldest strenghts.
That's why reforms in this area are very important also, and the DFB has actually introduced them just recently. I posted an article in the Mannschaft thread about this yesterday.
katsche-1974- Number of posts : 55
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- Post n°20
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
Have read this article. Very interesting. But why should every bundesliga club have a German coach? They want new ideas from abroad but no foreigners?
Ä- Number of posts : 11028
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- Post n°21
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
@fellow Germans
YOU as well as all those Johnny Foreigners on here have a major flaw in your theory
if Germany retreated into the stone-age in 2000 and only left it when Klinsi took charge in 2006, then how do you explain the World Cup Final in 2002 with our B-Team
I fear the situation is rather more complex than you think
and I suspect, blut's week is not gonna get any better just yet
YOU as well as all those Johnny Foreigners on here have a major flaw in your theory
if Germany retreated into the stone-age in 2000 and only left it when Klinsi took charge in 2006, then how do you explain the World Cup Final in 2002 with our B-Team
I fear the situation is rather more complex than you think
and I suspect, blut's week is not gonna get any better just yet
katsche-1974- Number of posts : 55
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- Post n°22
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
@Otto
That's really a question. I need my time to analyze this.
Btw: Does Angela really support Holland?
That's really a question. I need my time to analyze this.
Btw: Does Angela really support Holland?
Ä- Number of posts : 11028
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- Post n°23
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
katsche-1974 wrote:
Btw: Does Angela really support Holland?
of course
we ALL do
apparently
blutgraetsche- Number of posts : 23328
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- Post n°24
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
katsche-1974 wrote:Have read this article. Very interesting. But why should every bundesliga club have a German coach? They want new ideas from abroad but no foreigners?
Not necessarily from 'abroad' only, ideally we should create some new ideas on our own again also. The reason why the goal has to be to have a German manager in charge at every Bundesliga club is simple - we don't want to end like England.
Good foreign coaches are always welcome, but we have to make sure that we continue to produce top class managers ourselves, for the sake of the league and the national team. As a great footballing nation, it would be a disgrace not to.
@otto
Reaching the WC final in 2002 with that team was a great achievement. But the relatively 'easy' way to the final had a lot to do with it also.
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- Post n°25
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
that team, as you call it, was EVERY bit as good as Brazil (in the final)
Kahn made an unexpected mistake
we COULD easily have won the final with a team , that apparently, was a symbol for the decline of Germany as a football power, under a manager, who seems to be a laughing stock amongst Germans on here
@blut
something does not add up
Brazil were at full strength; we were NOT; yet, just as good
now imagine this: Ballack, Scholl, Deisler, Basler... had all been available
Brazil would have been toast
so maybe, you cannot explain 2000 and 2004 by saying we had Cr@p players
think about it
and , by the way, blut
if you want, we can postpone any further discussions to next week , when fortune will be kinder to you
Kahn made an unexpected mistake
we COULD easily have won the final with a team , that apparently, was a symbol for the decline of Germany as a football power, under a manager, who seems to be a laughing stock amongst Germans on here
@blut
something does not add up
Brazil were at full strength; we were NOT; yet, just as good
now imagine this: Ballack, Scholl, Deisler, Basler... had all been available
Brazil would have been toast
so maybe, you cannot explain 2000 and 2004 by saying we had Cr@p players
think about it
and , by the way, blut
if you want, we can postpone any further discussions to next week , when fortune will be kinder to you
blutgraetsche- Number of posts : 23328
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- Post n°26
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
Oh dear otto, where to start with that nonsense. The lack of quality players was exposed in both ECs in 2000 and 2004, when Germany did not even win a match against better European opposition. You are probably the only person on the planet who still refuses to admit this fact, and I'm glad that you have nothing to say in German football. Can you apply for a job at the KNVB, please?
"The fortune" is always kind to me when I talk to you otto.
Axeslammer- Number of posts : 19690
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- Post n°27
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
blutgraetsche wrote: Can you apply for a job at the KNVB, please?
We already have a German running the KNVB : Kessler, who's doing an excellent job of ruining Dutch football
katsche-1974- Number of posts : 55
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- Post n°28
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
At least I think Ribbeck (not Voeller) was the laughing stock. Voeller deserves appreciation for the 2002 success. But 2004 spoiled everything - especially how they lost to Czech R.
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- Post n°29
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
if
@blut
the question stands
forget about the draw; just take the FINAL
and as I said: Ballack, Scholl, Deisler... were not even on the pitch
in fact, how on earth can you argue that we lacked quality when the above mentioned players would have walked into ANY team on earth
I fear the reasons for our poor performances in 2000 and 2004 are rather different
2000: 100% is the result of Ribbeck's incompetence
Hrubesch was part of the coaching staff and even told journalists that he did not understand that the team had NEVER, NOT ONCE practiced a set-piece, corner....
the mood in the team was a desaster
when they were finally eliminated, they CELEBRATED until 5 am el fresco in their hotel
the nightmare was finished
2004: well, Voeller made a tactical mistake for two games when he switched to a single striker
but there was also a lot of bad-luck: think of the EXCELLENT game against Holland: we ran rings around them and only conceded the equalizer VERY late and 100% undeservedly
in other words: we were FAR better than the Dutch , who lost the semis on penalties
spiel das mal durch , blut: we could EASILY have won the tournament outright
penalties would have been ours
and
Greece would have been toast
oh dear, suddenly it looks like 2000-2006 was a VINTAGE GENERATION
then how do you explain our ability to play on ONE LEVEL with ultimate World Champs Brazil in 2002blutgraetsche wrote: "the lack of quality players was exposed in both ECs in 2000 and 2004 "
@blut
the question stands
forget about the draw; just take the FINAL
and as I said: Ballack, Scholl, Deisler... were not even on the pitch
in fact, how on earth can you argue that we lacked quality when the above mentioned players would have walked into ANY team on earth
I fear the reasons for our poor performances in 2000 and 2004 are rather different
2000: 100% is the result of Ribbeck's incompetence
Hrubesch was part of the coaching staff and even told journalists that he did not understand that the team had NEVER, NOT ONCE practiced a set-piece, corner....
the mood in the team was a desaster
when they were finally eliminated, they CELEBRATED until 5 am el fresco in their hotel
the nightmare was finished
2004: well, Voeller made a tactical mistake for two games when he switched to a single striker
but there was also a lot of bad-luck: think of the EXCELLENT game against Holland: we ran rings around them and only conceded the equalizer VERY late and 100% undeservedly
in other words: we were FAR better than the Dutch , who lost the semis on penalties
spiel das mal durch , blut: we could EASILY have won the tournament outright
penalties would have been ours
and
Greece would have been toast
oh dear, suddenly it looks like 2000-2006 was a VINTAGE GENERATION
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- Post n°30
Re: Germany 2004 & South Africa now
You truly live on a planet entirely of your own creation Øtto.
You are a true legend
You are a true legend
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