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    England squad

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    L r dd


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    Post by L r dd Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:47 pm

    debaser wrote:It'll be interesting to see who goes out of the wide players. In 23 man squad, you'd struggle to fit more than four from:

    Lennon, Beckham, SWP, Walcott, Downing, Young, Milner, J.Cole

    I wonder if Capello may have the guts to cut Beckham. It would seem harsh, but it seems he's only using him for cameos now. Obviously a lot can change over season, with form & injuries

    Beckham is clearly good for his experience and whole aura. He seems a very mature guy now the way he handled the Eduardo dive stuff just showed that. Plus he's a different option and he usually always delivers. For him not to go would be crominal IMO. Joe Cole has hardly featured at all as good as he is, it looks difficult for him to get in the tea now. Young is probably not going to go and Milner will have to be lucky ditto SWP. But a lot can change indeed.
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    Post by christmasborocooper Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:54 pm

    I reckon he'll take Lennon, Beckham, Downing and J Cole if they can get 5 or 6 months of good form in. Theo maybe too.
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    Glenarch of the Glen


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    Post by Glenarch of the Glen Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:01 pm

    debaser wrote:It'll be interesting to see who goes out of the wide players. In 23 man squad, you'd struggle to fit more than four from:

    Lennon, Beckham, SWP, Walcott, Downing, Young, Milner, J.Cole

    I wonder if Capello may have the guts to cut Beckham. It would seem harsh, but it seems he's only using him for cameos now. Obviously a lot can change over season, with form & injuries

    you also have to put Gerrard in that list, plus the possibility of an emerging player like Walcott in 2006, a Wilshere or a Welbeck or a Wallace or a Watt.
    Aristoskank
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    Post by Aristoskank Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:04 pm

    debaser wrote:It'll be interesting to see who goes out of the wide players. In 23 man squad, you'd struggle to fit more than four from:

    Lennon, Beckham, SWP, Walcott, Downing, Young, Milner, J.Cole

    I wonder if Capello may have the guts to cut Beckham. It would seem harsh, but it seems he's only using him for cameos now. Obviously a lot can change over season, with form & injuries

    If you include J.Cole then I think he'll take five. Cole can play wide or behind a striker, assuming he gets fit and back to something like his form of the season before last. None of the above are certs, and at least one is bound to be injured come next summer, so it is hard to predict.
    Aristoskank
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    Post by Aristoskank Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:04 pm

    G for Glenndetta wrote:you also have to put Gerrard in that list, plus the possibility of an emerging player like Walcott in 2006, a Wilshere or a Welbeck or a Wallace or a Watt.

    Neil Clement?
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    Post by debaser Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:08 pm

    G for Glenndetta wrote:
    debaser wrote:It'll be interesting to see who goes out of the wide players. In 23 man squad, you'd struggle to fit more than four from:

    Lennon, Beckham, SWP, Walcott, Downing, Young, Milner, J.Cole

    I wonder if Capello may have the guts to cut Beckham. It would seem harsh, but it seems he's only using him for cameos now. Obviously a lot can change over season, with form & injuries

    you also have to put Gerrard in that list, plus the possibility of an emerging player like Walcott in 2006, a Wilshere or a Welbeck or a Wallace or a Watt.

    I still count Gerrard as a CM, even if he plays on the left. Sue me.

    Delph for the last min spot Ale
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    Post by Tom Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:19 pm

    I can see him taking Joe Cole if Cole gets playing regularly for us again once he's over his injury. He's certainly good enough to be in the squad, but I don't think I'd start him, maybe use him as the impact player.

    Walcott can be included as a forward as well really. Hargreaves to be taken over 'back pass' Carrick as well?
    christmasborocooper
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    Post by christmasborocooper Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:22 pm

    ok

    Hopefully.
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    Post by Pierre Littbarski Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:38 pm

    I can see only Brazil and Spain who are clearly better than us but they are just that and you tend not to get upsets at World Cups (in terms of who wins it).

    Glen Johnson, Heskey and, to a lesser extent, Green are red herrings - Barry and Lampard are going to be what stops us winning the WC and that shouldn't be too much of a suprise as its the most important area of the pitch.

    I've never been sure what Barry does exactly other than smash in 25 penalties a season for Villa.

    He doesn't have the passing range to be an Alonso or Pirlo, he isn't defensively sound enough to be a MAkelele and he isn't energetic enough to be a Masch/Gattuso.

    If Lampard played AM he would be OK but I saw something that worried me last night and it happened against Holland too:

    Lampard passes right or left to a player directly level with him and, no sooner has he played the pass than he "sprints" Very Happy forward so he is way beyond the ball.

    If the player he passed to has his pass cut out the opposition will be countering with only Barry between them and our CB's - Imagine that v Spain or Brazil !

    Barry has some qualities but is dreadful at one on one challenges when someone with a half-decent amount of pace and skill is running at him - he always steps to the side of them and trips them before holding his hands up.

    Lampard cannot play CM as if he is playing ofr Chelsea and has at least 2 deeper midfielders to cover his runs forward.

    You either play Lampard as an AM or play a CM instead - this will never work against top class opposition.

    Ranieri, Mourinho, Hiddink, Ancelotti - none would play him as part of a 2 man CM but Capello is OK with it.

    It ddin't get exposed last night because Croatia's rare counters through the middle were slow and undecisive.

    2 players who need singling out for criticism are Eduardo and Kranjcar.

    £8.5 m for a Carling Cup striker No

    You can be a decent CF if you are under 6ft but you need some serious pace and skill - he hasn't and was no threat at all.

    A couple of years ago I disagreed with the majority of people who thought Modric was their star and thought that Kranjcar would be better long term.

    I figured that Modric would be lost in an increasingly physical game whilst Kranjcar at WC '06 had a hint of Kaka about him due to his build and playing style and would be better - I was wrong.

    Modric has gone from strength to strength but the older Kranjcar just hasn't done it for me and was impotent last night - he is wasting his club career too.



    Simunic Laugh Doh
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    Post by Romford Pele Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:46 pm

    I would say that is harsh on Edu Pierre. His off the ball movement is very good and despite his height he is very good at holding up the ball. I'd be very suprised if he doesn't bag at least 15 goals this season injuries permitting.

    You could also say he is a system player and he suits us down to the ground.
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    Post by Aristoskank Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:02 pm

    Pierre Littbarski wrote:
    If Lampard played AM he would be OK but I saw something that worried me last night and it happened against Holland too:

    Lampard passes right or left to a player directly level with him and, no sooner has he played the pass than he "sprints" Very Happy forward so he is way beyond the ball.

    If the player he passed to has his pass cut out the opposition will be countering with only Barry between them and our CB's - Imagine that v Spain or Brazil !

    It doesn't help that on the odd occasion there is a short pass through the middle available that Gerrard and Lampard chicken out and play a safe ball out wide, or back to the defence. It means that clever movement goes unrewarded, thus discouraging players from bothering with it. Lampard has poor movement off the ball outside of his luxury position at Chelsea and remains a liability for the national team.

    Scoring a lot of penalties does not make up for that.
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    Post by Romford Pele Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:10 pm

    Stimulus Package wrote:
    Pierre Littbarski wrote:
    If Lampard played AM he would be OK but I saw something that worried me last night and it happened against Holland too:

    Lampard passes right or left to a player directly level with him and, no sooner has he played the pass than he "sprints" Very Happy forward so he is way beyond the ball.

    If the player he passed to has his pass cut out the opposition will be countering with only Barry between them and our CB's - Imagine that v Spain or Brazil !

    It doesn't help that on the odd occasion there is a short pass through the middle available that Gerrard and Lampard chicken out and play a safe ball out wide, or back to the defence. It means that clever movement goes unrewarded, thus discouraging players from bothering with it. Lampard has poor movement off the ball outside of his luxury position at Chelsea and remains a liability for the national team.

    Scoring a lot of penalties does not make up for that.

    <Ale>
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    Post by Glenarch of the Glen Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:12 pm

    Pierre Littbarski wrote:I can see only Brazil and Spain who are clearly better than us but they are just that and you tend not to get upsets at World Cups (in terms of who wins it).

    Glen Johnson, Heskey and, to a lesser extent, Green are red herrings - Barry and Lampard are going to be what stops us winning the WC and that shouldn't be too much of a suprise as its the most important area of the pitch.

    I've never been sure what Barry does exactly other than smash in 25 penalties a season for Villa.

    He doesn't have the passing range to be an Alonso or Pirlo, he isn't defensively sound enough to be a MAkelele and he isn't energetic enough to be a Masch/Gattuso.

    If Lampard played AM he would be OK but I saw something that worried me last night and it happened against Holland too:

    Lampard passes right or left to a player directly level with him and, no sooner has he played the pass than he "sprints" Very Happy forward so he is way beyond the ball.

    If the player he passed to has his pass cut out the opposition will be countering with only Barry between them and our CB's - Imagine that v Spain or Brazil !

    Barry has some qualities but is dreadful at one on one challenges when someone with a half-decent amount of pace and skill is running at him - he always steps to the side of them and trips them before holding his hands up.

    Lampard cannot play CM as if he is playing ofr Chelsea and has at least 2 deeper midfielders to cover his runs forward.

    You either play Lampard as an AM or play a CM instead - this will never work against top class opposition.

    Ranieri, Mourinho, Hiddink, Ancelotti - none would play him as part of a 2 man CM but Capello is OK with it.

    It ddin't get exposed last night because Croatia's rare counters through the middle were slow and undecisive.

    2 players who need singling out for criticism are Eduardo and Kranjcar.

    £8.5 m for a Carling Cup striker No

    You can be a decent CF if you are under 6ft but you need some serious pace and skill - he hasn't and was no threat at all.

    A couple of years ago I disagreed with the majority of people who thought Modric was their star and thought that Kranjcar would be better long term.

    I figured that Modric would be lost in an increasingly physical game whilst Kranjcar at WC '06 had a hint of Kaka about him due to his build and playing style and would be better - I was wrong.

    Modric has gone from strength to strength but the older Kranjcar just hasn't done it for me and was impotent last night - he is wasting his club career too.



    Simunic Laugh Doh

    I agree with you on the midfield but you have forgotten one crucial matter

    one of Rooney and Gerrard will almost certainly break their leg in the weeks before the tournament proper. Owen Hargreaves and Michael Carrick will be playing together regularly for Manchester United, while Barry will be a substitute or full back at Citeh.

    So Lampard will play off Heskey, Rooney or Gerrard will play on the left and Carrick/Hargreaves will be our Tescos Value Pirlo/Gattuso sans the blue and white stripes.
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    Post by Glenarch of the Glen Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:58 am

    http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2009/09/fabio-capello-must-make-every-england-player-count.html

    interesting chat from Matt Hughes who suggests that Capello's fringe WC squad players should be the versatile ones, his potential squad:

    James, Green, Foster

    Johnson, Brown, Terry, Ferdinand, King, Lescott, A Cole,

    Lennon, Beckham, J Milner, Barry, Lampard, Gerrard, Hargreaves, J Cole,

    Rooney, Heskey, Defoe, Crouch, Walcott

    only 2 and a half recognised full backs in Johnson, Cole and Brown, but he reminds us that Lescott and Hargreaves can also cover. He forgets to mention Gareth Barry as an option for left back. Main ommision for me is Ashley Young at the expense of current FOTM James Milner, someone like Welbeck, Wishere or David Dunn will have taken his mantle by May.

    For now people have stopped talking about Owen, but you can bet your bottom dollar that if Defoe suffers some poor form/injury at the same time that Owen comes off the bench to score an important goal for Man Utd, the debate will roll on.
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    Post by Brian2468 Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:25 am

    Pierre Littbarski wrote:I can see only Brazil and Spain who are clearly better than us but they are just that and you tend not to get upsets at World Cups (in terms of who wins it).

    Glen Johnson, Heskey and, to a lesser extent, Green are red herrings - Barry and Lampard are going to be what stops us winning the WC and that shouldn't be too much of a suprise as its the most important area of the pitch.

    I've never been sure what Barry does exactly other than smash in 25 penalties a season for Villa.

    He doesn't have the passing range to be an Alonso or Pirlo, he isn't defensively sound enough to be a MAkelele and he isn't energetic enough to be a Masch/Gattuso.

    If Lampard played AM he would be OK but I saw something that worried me last night and it happened against Holland too:

    Lampard passes right or left to a player directly level with him and, no sooner has he played the pass than he "sprints" Very Happy forward so he is way beyond the ball.

    If the player he passed to has his pass cut out the opposition will be countering with only Barry between them and our CB's - Imagine that v Spain or Brazil !

    Barry has some qualities but is dreadful at one on one challenges when someone with a half-decent amount of pace and skill is running at him - he always steps to the side of them and trips them before holding his hands up.

    Lampard cannot play CM as if he is playing ofr Chelsea and has at least 2 deeper midfielders to cover his runs forward.

    You either play Lampard as an AM or play a CM instead - this will never work against top class opposition.

    Ranieri, Mourinho, Hiddink, Ancelotti - none would play him as part of a 2 man CM but Capello is OK with it.

    It ddin't get exposed last night because Croatia's rare counters through the middle were slow and undecisive.

    2 players who need singling out for criticism are Eduardo and Kranjcar.

    £8.5 m for a Carling Cup striker No

    You can be a decent CF if you are under 6ft but you need some serious pace and skill - he hasn't and was no threat at all.

    A couple of years ago I disagreed with the majority of people who thought Modric was their star and thought that Kranjcar would be better long term.

    I figured that Modric would be lost in an increasingly physical game whilst Kranjcar at WC '06 had a hint of Kaka about him due to his build and playing style and would be better - I was wrong.

    Modric has gone from strength to strength but the older Kranjcar just hasn't done it for me and was impotent last night - he is wasting his club career too.



    Simunic Laugh Doh

    Pierre: You worry to much my good man. Who really knows what Capello will play in the middle later on, this is the good news about England no player has dibbs on a position. Barry and Lampard still did there job in a side that is built to play a certain way.

    We know how the top teams play. Euro 2008 Germany tried and could not control the middle so they ended up losing the final. They never had any out lets on the flanks enough to trouble Spain into unstabilizing the middle.

    England do not need to own the middle they need to own the positions on the whole field that means taking the midfield away from their opponents by continually having players ready to receive the ball offensively.

    Capello gets his side to force the opposition midfield into making mistakes so far so good in our group. For it to work against better teams it does not mean opposition have to cough the ball up and make bad passes, breaking their tempo and stifling build ups will be enough to react fast offensively.

    Rooney, Gerrard, Lennon, and Heskey owned the 2/3 field area for Capello they were the outlets. Gerrard and Rooney on the left side made it easy for Lampard and Barry on the right Heskey and Lennon did the same.

    The middle becomes a none issue. I like his system it suits our English game we may not go all the way but at least we can be a threat.

    Whoever comes into the side knows what is expected of them in their position feed the four outlets support them and contract fast on turnovers.


    More important Capello gets more out of his players they all seem to be delivering.
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    Post by 110% Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:57 am

    I think people are overrating Brasil's chances, while theyhave very good players and very good cover they don't really have an outstanding striker like they always had in the past (although they have a few good ones), spain have 2, and although cesar is good he is not as good as casillas.

    England midifeld is hardly their biggest problem, having a dodgy keeper and no outstanding strikers is (I rate rooney but I don't see him scoring loads of goals and winnign the golden boot).
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    Post by Aristoskank Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:31 am

    G for Glenndetta wrote:http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2009/09/fabio-capello-must-make-every-england-player-count.html

    interesting chat from Matt Hughes who suggests that Capello's fringe WC squad players should be the versatile ones, his potential squad:

    James, Green, Foster

    Johnson, Brown, Terry, Ferdinand, King, Lescott, A Cole,

    Lennon, Beckham, J Milner, Barry, Lampard, Gerrard, Hargreaves, J Cole,

    Rooney, Heskey, Defoe, Crouch, Walcott

    only 2 and a half recognised full backs in Johnson, Cole and Brown, but he reminds us that Lescott and Hargreaves can also cover. He forgets to mention Gareth Barry as an option for left back. Main ommision for me is Ashley Young at the expense of current FOTM James Milner, someone like Welbeck, Wishere or David Dunn will have taken his mantle by May.

    For now people have stopped talking about Owen, but you can bet your bottom dollar that if Defoe suffers some poor form/injury at the same time that Owen comes off the bench to score an important goal for Man Utd, the debate will roll on.

    I still don't know what Walcott's done to warrant a place. Is there any explanation from Hughes?
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    Post by christmasborocooper Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:47 am

    3 goals vs Croatia?

    Can play on the wing or up front..is lightning quick so useful to come on as a sub in the last 20 mins if we're losing.

    I dont get it either.
    Aristoskank
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    Post by Aristoskank Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:49 am

    borocooper wrote:3 goals vs Croatia?

    Can play on the wing or up front..is lightning quick so useful to come on as a sub in the last 20 mins if we're losing.

    I dont get it either.

    I once scored a goal from inside my own half, and can play to a poor standard in about 7 positions. I'm not anywhere near the England squad.
    christmasborocooper
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    Post by christmasborocooper Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:50 am

    Stimulus Package wrote:
    borocooper wrote:3 goals vs Croatia?

    Can play on the wing or up front..is lightning quick so useful to come on as a sub in the last 20 mins if we're losing.

    I dont get it either.

    I once scored a goal from inside my own half, and can play to a poor standard in about 7 positions. I'm not anywhere near the England squad.

    You're not quick enough.
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    Post by Tweesus Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:55 am

    Agree with 110% that Spain are far and away the favourites. If we draw them at any point in the lead up to the final, we're out.

    Any other team, I think we have a chance against and it'll depend on our (and their) mentality and form on the day.
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    Post by Tweesus Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:56 am

    borocooper wrote:
    Stimulus Package wrote:
    borocooper wrote:3 goals vs Croatia?

    Can play on the wing or up front..is lightning quick so useful to come on as a sub in the last 20 mins if we're losing.

    I dont get it either.

    I once scored a goal from inside my own half, and can play to a poor standard in about 7 positions. I'm not anywhere near the England squad.

    You're not quick enough.

    He probably models his game on Matt Le Tiss, and we all know how his England career went Whistle
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    Post by Aristoskank Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:16 am

    borocooper wrote:
    Stimulus Package wrote:
    borocooper wrote:3 goals vs Croatia?

    Can play on the wing or up front..is lightning quick so useful to come on as a sub in the last 20 mins if we're losing.

    I dont get it either.

    I once scored a goal from inside my own half, and can play to a poor standard in about 7 positions. I'm not anywhere near the England squad.

    You're not quick enough.

    Carrick gets in the squad, I'm quicker than him. Probably. Bit difficult to judge the top speed of something that doesn't move.

    Razz
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    Post by debaser Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:57 am

    G for Glenndetta wrote:http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2009/09/fabio-capello-must-make-every-england-player-count.html

    interesting chat from Matt Hughes who suggests that Capello's fringe WC squad players should be the versatile ones, his potential squad:

    James, Green, Foster

    Johnson, Brown, Terry, Ferdinand, King, Lescott, A Cole,

    Lennon, Beckham, J Milner, Barry, Lampard, Gerrard, Hargreaves, J Cole,

    Rooney, Heskey, Defoe, Crouch, Walcott

    only 2 and a half recognised full backs in Johnson, Cole and Brown, but he reminds us that Lescott and Hargreaves can also cover. He forgets to mention Gareth Barry as an option for left back. Main ommision for me is Ashley Young at the expense of current FOTM James Milner, someone like Welbeck, Wishere or David Dunn will have taken his mantle by May.

    For now people have stopped talking about Owen, but you can bet your bottom dollar that if Defoe suffers some poor form/injury at the same time that Owen comes off the bench to score an important goal for Man Utd, the debate will roll on.

    Would not be surprised if the squad is along those lines. That's how I'd be thinking - rather take 7 defenders and an extra attacker, so long as you have someone who can fill in if you get an injury. I'd expect Bridge+Upson rather than King+Lescott, as Lescott is no good at LB, and Brown would be fine as 4th choice CB. King's injuries will count against, plus he's not got much England experience. Upson's a near-cert for the squad, given how much he's played recently.

    Also, I reckon Downing might sneak in as a natural left-footer, probably ahead of Milner, who is versatile, but there's already several in there who can play on the right & therefore it'd be better to have someone who's first position is LW. Funny that Villa have got three wingers who are probably going to be competing for that one spot in the squad.
    Tweesus
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    Post by Tweesus Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:23 pm

    Just read this absolute classic on F365 qbout Heskey:

    I have been reading with great interest the recent mailbox debate about whether or not Emile Heskey should play for England and the qualities that he brings to the side. With this in mind I would like to share my view of Emile in the hope that it will bring people round to my way of thinking about the big fella.

    Now, whilst the Lord of the Rings films were largely boring affairs, there was some rather good fighting which made the whole thing slightly more tolerable. In one of the films the party are in a mine and with the enemy approaching Sean Bean turns to his colleagues and politely informs them that the opposition have a "cave troll", which causes the party some concern. Now, I imagine a very similar situation occurs when England's international opponents see Emile for the very first time. A wave of fear washes over them, convinced that England have managed to domesticate a terrifying mythical beast who can destroy their lily-livered foreign centre-backs with a swing of his mighty club-like fist.

    To complete the effect I suggest we hit Emile with sticks until he lets out a blood-curdling scream in the tunnel, before we drag him out on to the pitch secured by chains.

    On second thoughts, Blatter and Platini might get the wrong idea.
    Pierre Littbarski
    Pierre Littbarski


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    Post by Pierre Littbarski Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:21 pm

    Spain by far and away ?

    No way - its Brazil's to lose, they are physically way superior to Spain and their counter-attacks and set pieces are the best.
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    Post by Glenarch of the Glen Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:33 pm

    Pierre,

    You're wrong and you're a grotesquely ugly freak.

    This is a horrible Brazil, set pieces and counter attacks are about all they've got.

    They were found out in the Confederations Cup by Egypt and the USA. I would make Spain, England, Holland and probably even Germany favourites against them in a knock out game.

    I would even go so far as to say, depending on the draw, they might not make it out of their group.

    If I had a free bet I would take England at 7/1 before Brazil at 5/1.
    The Pröfessör
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    Post by The Pröfessör Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:51 pm

    Pierre Littbarski wrote:
    2 players who need singling out for criticism are Eduardo and Kranjcar.

    £8.5 m for a Carling Cup striker No

    lol! lol! lol!



    Pierre Littbarski wrote:You can be a decent CF if you are under 6ft but you need some serious pace and skill - he hasn't and was no threat at all

    No u don't Pierre
    Romford Pele
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    Post by Romford Pele Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:03 pm

    All this criticism for Brazil? People say all they have are set pieces and the counter attack which is utter tripe. They still have as good as individual talent as anyone. Robinho and Kaka could win games single-handedly.

    I'm sure Dunga understands this. They have more than enough creativity to unlock teams who park the bus.

    People don't half talk a lot of shit.
    The Pröfessör
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    Post by The Pröfessör Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:08 pm

    Btw most of you are reading too much into the form of teams during qualification, that's the wrong time to judge teams. Wait till the knock out rounds of the WC before making some teams favourites.

    Spain barely made it to the last Euros but ended up wining it, France looked unbeatable leading up to Euro 2004 but were a joke in the tournament intself, the reverse was true for them for the 2006 WC. Brazil barely made it to Korea and Japan, but we all know how they performed in the tournament itself. I could go on and on....

    As I said wait till the knock out rounds. Injuries, form of (key) players, luck of the draw, teams being overrated or underrated etc all do play a BIg part in who ends up the eventual winner.

    I can see any of the big teams including the ones that are struggling now( Argentina, France, Portugal etc) go on and win it. It's too early people.

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