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    Should Argentina be like Barça?

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    Post by fcb Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:44 am

    Just been reading a FourFourTwo blog where the author suggests that in order to bring out the best in Messi, Maradona should pick a formation and personnel that imitates Barça.

    http://fourfourtwo.com/blogs/argiebargy/archive/2009/12/24/argentina-s-new-year-resolution-be-like-bar-231-a.aspx


    Given that Catalunya have the same chance of competing at a World Cup as Tibet, Argentina losing 4-2 to Johan Cryuff’s side on Tuesday night needs to be considered more than just a blip.

    Granted, there was no newly-crowned FIFA World Player of the Year Leo Messi at the Catalunya-Argentina friendly. (One particularly bitter and twisted fan in Buenos Aires suggested that if Cryuff had called Messi up to play for the home side, the Barcelona forward would have overcome his ankle sprain.)

    But the world has now bowed down to the brilliance of Messi (apart from Brazil’s coach Dunga and Brazil’s captain Lúcio, neither of whom both deemed Little Leo worthy of a place in their top three players of the year).

    After the atrocious defending and lack of ideas from the team at the Camp Nou last night, it is time to suggest a new year’s resolution to Argentina in order to bring out the best of Leo Messi.

    Copy Barcelona.

    In goal for Víctor Valdés - Sergio Romero
    This is one position where Argentina are perhaps in better shape than Barcelona. Valdés is the big winner in Barcelona’s keep-ball philosophy – it reduces the likelihood of him committing shockers like this or these.

    The Dani Alves-charging-down-the-right-from-full-back-to-help-free-up-Messi role – Jonás Gutiérrez
    Argentina are so short on full-backs that nearly 400 people voted for Fabricio Coloccini in a recent online survey to play right-back at the World Cup. 400.

    Zanetti may not have the legs for this role, and Zabaleta is, by his own admission, too defensive. Maradona is a big fan of Jonás who, unlike Gago, will do what he is told to do by his coach and not complain about being played out of position. The Newcastle man is disciplined, has already played right-back once for Argentina, has the lungs and legs for the job.

    The curly-haired-tub-thumping-put-the-boot-in-when-necessary Carles Puyol centre-back role – Gaby Milito
    Milito is a carbon copy of his club team-mate, and as long as he can stay fit now that he’s back from injury, he will be the first-choice centre back next June.

    The Gerard Piqué ‘other’ centre back role – Martín Demichelis
    Ever since a surgeon claimed that Micho had botox injections, people have been slightly suspicious of the lack of movement from Demichelis’ upper lip. Despite these claims, and his attempted ‘tackle’ as Bojan ghosted past him the other night, he's better than the other options at the back (Heinze, Schiavi, Burdisso, Coloccini).

    The reliable left-back Eric Abidal role – Emiliano Insúa
    Copying the Barcelona model means only needing one kamikaze full-back. Insúa was solid and unremarkable when called upon to face Peru, but is a stronger and more reliable choice that Emiliano Papa, and is also not Gabriel Heinze.

    The Xavi Hernández metronome role – Javier Mascherano
    Not as creative as Xavi, granted, but he can sit deep and keep things ticking over. Argentina need the old Mascherano. Badly. Masche’s dip in form is, perhaps uncoincidentally, more or less traceable to the moment he was named national team captain.

    In Argentina you're the odd one out if you don’t have a weekly session on the divan, so it's time to bring in the psychologist to bring out the best from the country’s captain.

    The Seydou Keita/Yaya Touré sleeves-up-workaholic-midfield-dynamo role – Esteban Cambiasso
    You’re just as likely to see both Touré or Keita drilling in a 25-yard piledriver as you are heroically winning the ball outside their own area. Same goes for Cambiasso.

    The Iniesta pulling-the-strings role – Pablo Aimar
    Everyone’s agreed that the Barcelona Messi excels when he doesn’t have to come so deep to pick up the ball. You need a player with the skill, creativity and imagination to play near him. Pablo Aimar is the man, although Javier Pastore could well be the long-term choice for the job. In the real world, meanwhile, Diego is likely to go for Verón’s experience.

    The all-conquering-all-singing-goalscoring-wunderkind Leo Messi role – Leo Messi

    The Ibrahimovic versatile centre-forward role – Gonzalo Higuaín
    When Capello was last at Real Madrid, he couldn’t drop Van Nistelrooy or Raúl because of form and club politics respectively. Capello had to accommodate the promising new centre-forward signed from River Plate out on the wing.

    Since Capello moved on, Higuaín has played a more central role for the galácticos, so is the perfect target man for the Albiceleste, but he can also just as easily swap position with whoever plays the...

    The Thierry Henry-stay-out-wide-but-come-into-the-middle-as-and-when-to-cause-havoc-role – Sergio Agüero
    It hasn’t been a vintage season for Agüero, and reported arguments with his señorita, who is also the boss’ daughter, may not help his cause for a place in the first team. But there are few players with his raw talent. As with Mascherano, Argentina need the Agüero of last season.

    And with that, Argie Bargy is off to defend its inclusion of Jonás at right-back over a Christmas-sized steak.


    I think it's an interesting idea, and his back 5 seem about right to me, but I disagree about the midfield...especially the idea of Mascherano performing Xavi's role Laughing


    While the guy writing the blog has used last year's Barça as a model, I think Argentina are better suited to this year's Barça. ie. Iniesta featuring at LW and an extra "DM" alongside Xavi. This is what I'd go with:

    Romero
    Jonas-Milito-Demichelis-Insua
    Mascherano-Cambiasso
    Veron
    Messi-Higuain-Di Maria

    Veron is more of a Xavi player in the sense that he can control the game and feed the strikers with his passing from the tip of midfield.

    Mascherano can be the deep lying Busquets, tackling and distributing the ball simply...but also committing and receiving lots of fouls.

    Cambiasso would be the Keita, joining the attack but also doing defensive work.

    And I think Di Maria is a better fit at LF...since his game is all about skill, dribbling, running-with-the-ball, etc. like Iniesta, but with a better shot. And he's naturally left sided too. Not sure Aguero can do the Henry role anyway.


    So now that Maradona has the personnel and formation in place, he just needs to work on: pressuring the ball, keeping possession, making Cambiasso faster, making Jonas as skilful as Dani Alves, making Insua as tall, fast, and strong as Abidal, and teaching the positioning and movement required for a 4-3-3 to work. And Argentina will be world champs. Easy!


    (until they face Capello's England who will be modelled on Chelsea... )
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    Post by Super Progress Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:56 pm

    I said this way back. Either copy Barcelona and see what Messi can do or find a balanced formation and drop whoever is needed because this is the world cup.

    Masherano performing as Xavi. lol!

    Banega <Ale>

    Other then that it looks good but Higuain as a lone striker. They should try Lisandro Lopez.
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    Post by bluenine Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:58 pm

    Milito (after all his injuries) over Samuel is just wrong. The Wall should be one of the first names on the starting XI. Also, Zanetti can still do a much better job than Jonas.

    Fun article, but Argentina should play like Argentina, not Barca. This is what I would go for:

    Romero
    Zanetti - Milito - Samuel - Demichelis
    Mascherano - Cambiasso
    Riquelme
    Messi - Milito - Tevez

    or

    Romero
    Jonas - Milito - Samuel - Zanetti
    Mascherano - Cambiasso
    Messi - Riquelme - Di Maria
    Milito
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    Post by fcb Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:03 pm

    @bluenine: I realise you probably watch more of Milito than Higuain, but to leave out the latter completely is a travesty...up there with me totally forgetting about Samuel Razz
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    Post by bluenine Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:09 pm

    kas wrote:@bluenine: I realise you probably watch more of Milito than Higuain, but to leave out the latter completely is a travesty...up there with me totally forgetting about Samuel Razz

    Yeah, but Milito has been in good form for a while now. Its a toss up really... I did think of including both, but the 442 does not suit the argies talents.
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    Post by fcb Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:11 pm

    In that case I would play Higuain from the left in a 4-3-3...he is flexible enough for that, as we saw in Capello's season at Madrid and a few more appearances on the wing since then.
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    Post by Hlebagone Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:26 pm

    Brazil could'should have copied Rijkaard's 4-3-3 last word cup too to get the best out of Ronaldinho.[/u]
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    Post by DeLux Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:40 pm

    --------------Romero-------------

    Zabaleta-Milito--Samuel-Ansaldi

    -------------Macherano-----------
    --------Banega----Cambiasso----

    ----Messi---Higuain---Di María---

    Or Aimar for Banega in a 4-2-3-1
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    Post by Guest Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:28 pm

    Hlebagone wrote:Brazil could'should have copied Rijkaard's 4-3-3 last word cup too to get the best out of Ronaldinho.[/u]


    I agree and play something similar, instead of having him the deepest of the four attacking players much of the time, then blame him for losing the WC.

    I agree with Kas formation it could work, its that are some other balanced formation i think a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-1-2, but they need roman back for them to work correctly.


    -------------------GK

    ---Zabeleta---Samuel--Milito---Insua

    -----------Masch---Cambiasso

    -----Messi------Roman------Di Maria

    -----------------Higuain

    Its so simple a blind man could see it


    ----------------GK

    ---Jonas/Zanetti----Milito---Samuel---Papa

    -------Cambiasso---Veron---Masch

    -----------------Roman

    ----------Messi-----------Higuain

    Need the fullbacks to provide some width in this one.
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    Post by Axeslammer Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:02 pm

    Romero has hit a serious case of "being completely out of form" for a while now....I hope Argentina have a decent second goalie Ale
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    Post by Ricardo Jol Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:06 pm

    I agree with Axe, That Romero kid had a terrible first half of the season...
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    Post by bluenine Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:32 pm

    Axeslammer wrote:Romero has hit a serious case of "being completely out of form" for a while now....I hope Argentina have a decent second goalie Ale

    I guess Carrizo is second choice... dunno how he is at Zaragoza, but he was shite at Lazio.

    Andujar of Catania is a decent keeper tho. Perhaps he could be that option, definately better than Carrizo IMO.
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    Post by DeLux Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:24 pm

    Carizzo has lost his spot to a 38-year old.
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    Post by Jaime Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:17 pm

    I can't believe people are actually putting Gabi Milito in these Argentina XI's. He's not even played a single proper match of football and for all we know his knees can break again tomorrow. Doh

    Apart from that, I like Ole's team the best, although of course, I would put Aimar for Banega. Ale
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    Post by Onur 1905 Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:11 pm

    bluenine wrote:
    Fun article, but Argentina should play like Argentina, not Barca.

    I completely agree with you and in addition I don't believe that Argentina organise a game like Barca because they don't have Xavi and Iniesta. Argentina's midfielders can't do it as well as Barca's.

    In my opinion, Argetina don't have also anything except Messi !

    I think nowadays Argentina is looking for a striker such as Crespo but it will be too hard to find a striker like him until Word Cup.

    If Argentina wants to be successful in this World Cup, They should play counter-attack ! In least at this World Cup.

    Aguero, Messi and Tevez might be the best three players who play counter-attack.
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    Post by Kroos Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:45 pm

    demichelis is a load of shit

    and argentina dont have the players and the coach to do well at the wc
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    Post by BoBo Vieri 32 Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:39 pm

    Generally a pretty crap article.

    The Dani Alves-charging-down-the-right-from-full-back-to-help-free-up-Messi role – Jonás Gutiérrez
    Argentina are so short on full-backs that nearly 400 people voted for Fabricio Coloccini in a recent online survey to play right-back at the World Cup. 400.

    Zanetti may not have the legs for this role, and Zabaleta is, by his own admission, too defensive. Maradona is a big fan of Jonás who, unlike Gago, will do what he is told to do by his coach and not complain about being played out of position. The Newcastle man is disciplined, has already played right-back once for Argentina, has the lungs and legs for the job.

    Joans is pretty crap. He plays in the chamionship. Lots of running but no skill or footballing intelligence. No way can he compare to Dani Alves.

    Zanetti may not have the legs for the role? Do they realise that Zanetti has not missed a Serie A match since Autumn 2006. He's more fit than players 10 years younger than him. Zanetti has been hugely underrated by Argentina. They should feel priviledged to have a player like him. Instead he's probably going to miss out on 2 World Cups.

    The curly-haired-tub-thumping-put-the-boot-in-when-necessary Carles Puyol centre-back role – Gaby Milito
    Milito is a carbon copy of his club team-mate, and as long as he can stay fit now that he’s back from injury, he will be the first-choice centre back next June.

    Like others have said, the guy hasn't played in over 18 months. Even if he does get fit, what makes them so certain that Maradona will pick him?

    The Gerard Piqué ‘other’ centre back role – Martín Demichelis
    Ever since a surgeon claimed that Micho had botox injections, people have been slightly suspicious of the lack of movement from Demichelis’ upper lip. Despite these claims, and his attempted ‘tackle’ as Bojan ghosted past him the other night, he's better than the other options at the back (Heinze, Schiavi, Burdisso, Coloccini).

    They obviously forgot about other options like Gonzalo and Samuel.

    The Xavi Hernández metronome role – Javier Mascherano
    Not as creative as Xavi, granted, but he can sit deep and keep things ticking over. Argentina need the old Mascherano. Badly. Masche’s dip in form is, perhaps uncoincidentally, more or less traceable to the moment he was named national team captain.

    In Argentina you're the odd one out if you don’t have a weekly session on the divan, so it's time to bring in the psychologist to bring out the best from the country’s captain.

    Like others have said, Mascherano is nothing like Xavi. I agree with Super Madrid - Banega should play this role.
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    Post by Aristoskank Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:24 am

    This seems to be entirely focussed on how to get more out of THE WORLD'S GREATEST PLAYER at international level where he's such a profound let down compared to his Barca form.

    The suggestion that maybe he's not actually as good as Argentinians and Barca fans like to think is not considered. Instead, the writer makes ludicrous comparisons (Di Maria and Henry, Mascherano and Xavi, Jonas and Alves) to try to stretch a half-assed non-idea into a full length article.


    Awful journalism. Absolutely fucking awful.
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    Post by bluenine Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:09 am

    Xmas Package wrote:This seems to be entirely focussed on how to get more out of THE WORLD'S GREATEST PLAYER at international level where he's such a profound let down compared to his Barca form.

    The suggestion that maybe he's not actually as good as Argentinians and Barca fans like to think is not considered. Instead, the writer makes ludicrous comparisons (Di Maria and Henry, Mascherano and Xavi, Jonas and Alves) to try to stretch a half-assed non-idea into a full length article.


    Awful journalism. Absolutely fucking awful.

    Agree with you on everything, except that Messi is actually very very exceptional. But football is not an individual sport, and the Argies haven't found the system to exploit Messi's (and their own) talent to the fullest.
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    Post by Aristoskank Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:38 am

    Messi is an exceptional player. But he's still nothing like as good as the hype makes out.

    Same with CRonaldo. Same with Kaka. Same with all the top players. Isn't Messi's fault, I don't think any player has ever been as good as the hype that gets spread about the Argie midget.
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    Post by Guest Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:02 pm

    Expect Essien of course
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    Post by Aristoskank Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:19 pm

    Expect him to do what? Score a goal that Messi could not?
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    Post by Pierre Littbarski Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:00 pm

    Agree with saints re Messi - he can run riot in an open game even against top quality but I don't think he is the player who opens the game and he is not a genius - just a very quick, very skillful footballer.

    Ronaldinho, kaka, Ronaldo, Messi, Gerrard - only Ronaldinho is worth the hype of them lot because he is a genius.

    One of the greats <Ale>
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    Post by 110% Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:31 am

    Xmas Package wrote:Expect him to do what? Score a goal that Messi could not?

    Run around a lot and score the odd hit-and-hope.

    Good player but doesn't deserve the hype he gets.
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    Post by Lordanger Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:07 am

    essien group (think) hug.
    we love you mike, even if you are overrated.
    cant shoot for shit...
    passing isnt that great either but fair play the boy can run!
    horrah!
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    Post by Aristoskank Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:15 am

    110% wrote:
    Xmas Package wrote:Expect him to do what? Score a goal that Messi could not?

    Run around a lot and score the odd hit-and-hope.

    Given he scored a virtually identical goal to his Barca volley in Chelsea's pre-season in 2008 it's safe to say he knew exactly what he was doing.

    Good player but doesn't deserve the hype he gets.

    From who? Apart from me, no one seems to pay Essien much mind. When he was out injured for 5 months and Chelsea started dropping points regularly, Scolari got sacked, but no one thought to mention his team was missing its best midfielder. However, John Terry pulls a muscle in a stripclub and the papers are full of 'how will they cope without him?' stories.

    Essien for World Bank President.
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    Post by Aristoskank Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:18 am

    Pierre Littbarski wrote:Ronaldinho, kaka, Ronaldo, Messi, Gerrard - only Ronaldinho is worth the hype of them lot because he is a genius.

    One of the greats <Ale>

    I'm not sure even Ronaldinho is/was worthy of the hype, but he was a damn sight closer than these other height, pace and skill merchants. I dunno about 'genius' either, but inasmuch as a footballer can be a genius, Ronaldinho was one.

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