Woy Hodgson Versus Rafael Benitez

Both managers left smaller clubs to chase the big time off the back of reputation bred from European success.

Both enduring baptisms of fire in their current roles managing bigger clubs.

So as we near Xmas, who is less hated by their respective employers fans?

Will Rafa ever pay up on his guarantee to Liverpool fans of Champions League football last season?

Will Woy ever pick Pacheco, the Spanish Messi, over Poulsen and Spearing in midfield?

Should Inter and Liverpool do a Panini Sticker Book style swap and bring some happiness to both sets of fans?

I want answers, and I want them now

Woy won his last match 3-0 vs Aston Villa, Benitez lost his last match 3-0 vs Werder Bremen... I would much rather be Woy at this moment in time.

Inter are doing shit after winning everything last year.

Liverpool are doing shit after being shit last year.

Both Inter this year and Liverpool last year were managed by, and to, the same shit.

Ergo he is Mr.Shit.

This is a difficult one, because Liverpool fans would probably say Hodgson is worse, while Inter fans would probably say Benitez is worse, and in footballing terms that would produce an equation, a correspondence, an identity of 1-1. Now in football some goals are better than others but if the score at the end of a football game is 1-1 that game will regardless be classed a tie, and the points that are awarded as a result of the game will be shared; but in this instance, it is possible that Hodgson and Benitez's scores equate in number yet not in significance. And taking into consideration the rank and otherwise smelly foolishness of Liverpool fans in general, it must be said that, in sum, the views of Inter Milan fans hold weight, retain water, and so Benitez is worse after all.

As a Newcastle fan, I am angry and upset with the seemingly imminent appointment of Alan Pardew to the role of club manager. On the one hand, I comfort myself and think, 'At least it's not Mr. Shit', as debaser so aptly calls Rafa Benitez. On the other hand, I consider Mr. Shit and see a depth still waiting to be sadly plumbed.

debaser wrote:Inter are doing shit after winning everything last year.

Liverpool are doing shit after being shit last year.

Both Inter this year and Liverpool last year were managed by, and to, the same shit.

Ergo he is Mr.Shit.

Rafa's run in 2001-2005 is something that Woy never will achieve..

Fenomeno wrote:Rafa's run in 2001-20052009 is something that Woy never will achieve..

Agree Pierre. He won FA cup, another CL final and nearly won the championship after 2005..

Fenomeno wrote:Agree Pierre. He won FA cup, another CL final and nearly won the championship after 2005..

Mourinho is the business, there's no doubt about that but Rafa is also up there with Jose, Ancelotti, Lippi, Del Bosque and Van Gaal.


If we work on the basis that Italy was the best league in the world up to '00, Spain was best from '00 to 04/05 and England was best from 04/05 onwards

Won the best league in the world:
Jose:2
Rafa:2


UEFA Cup winner:
Jose: 1
Rafa: 1


CL final:
Jose: 2
Rafa: 2



In Mourinho's favour: he has won domestic titles in 3 countries to Rafa's 1, he has won an historic treble and I think he has probably had the better of the head to heads between the 2 - plus he won 2 from 2 CL finals to Benitez 1 from 2.

Produced much better results with same players at Inter


In Rafa's favour: Jose's titles in big countries have always been as the most well financed club (maybe Benfica had more money than Porto but the latter is much better run and would be easier to win titles with)


Valencia would have been 4th best financed ?

Would Jose have been able to get Liverpool as close to the title as Rafa did in '09 ? We've seen no evidence of this as he always with the best financed team.

Rafa had much better opponents in his CL finals.

Although I have a feeling that Jose won more head to heads - Rafa won the 3 biggest: 2 CL semi's and FA Cup semi.

Don't anyone think about mentioning the "ghost goal" as Lubos Michel has said he was going to send Cech off and give a pen had it not been awarded.


So if Jose is all good and Rafa is all bad how comes Rafa has won the 3 most important games between them - if it was 1 it could be a fluke.

My mind is cast back to the 2nd CL semi - Rafa's lot seem well aware of who is taking pens and in what order - complete disarray and panic amongst Jose's lot.


Jose has done better but taking into account finances its very close - not that you'd think that from most people's comments.

Mr Shit

Pierre Littbarski wrote:

Fenomeno wrote:Agree Pierre. He won FA cup, another CL final and nearly won the championship after 2005..

Mourinho is the business, there's no doubt about that but Rafa is also up there with Jose, Ancelotti, Lippi, Del Bosque and Van Gaal.


If we work on the basis that Italy was the best league in the world up to '00, Spain was best from '00 to 04/05 and England was best from 04/05 onwards

Won the best league in the world:
Jose:2
Rafa:2


UEFA Cup winner:
Jose: 1
Rafa: 1


CL final:
Jose: 2
Rafa: 2



In Mourinho's favour: he has won domestic titles in 3 countries to Rafa's 1, he has won an historic treble and I think he has probably had the better of the head to heads between the 2 - plus he won 2 from 2 CL finals to Benitez 1 from 2.

Produced much better results with same players at Inter


In Rafa's favour: Jose's titles in big countries have always been as the most well financed club (maybe Benfica had more money than Porto but the latter is much better run and would be easier to win titles with)


Valencia would have been 4th best financed ?

Would Jose have been able to get Liverpool as close to the title as Rafa did in '09 ? We've seen no evidence of this as he always with the best financed team.

Rafa had much better opponents in his CL finals.

Although I have a feeling that Jose won more head to heads - Rafa won the 3 biggest: 2 CL semi's and FA Cup semi.

Don't anyone think about mentioning the "ghost goal" as Lubos Michel has said he was going to send Cech off and give a pen had it not been awarded.


So if Jose is all good and Rafa is all bad how comes Rafa has won the 3 most important games between them - if it was 1 it could be a fluke.

My mind is cast back to the 2nd CL semi - Rafa's lot seem well aware of who is taking pens and in what order - complete disarray and panic amongst Jose's lot.


Jose has done better but taking into account finances its very close - not that you'd think that from most people's comments.

Mr Shit

Also Rafa spent nothing this summer at Inter, mainly because Jose had already wasted €50mil+ on the likes of Quaresma, Mancini & Muntari.

An ageing squad who had just won everything.... not the best situation to be walking into.

Can we not throw Juande Ramos into the mix aswell?

What he did at Sevilla was almost as impressive as Rafa at Valencia.

He also won us the CC in his first and only season (even if it was mostly Jol's team).

But here's the rub - Ramos and Rafa achieved league success in Spain, in their home countries. Outside of it, both are/were good (in Rafa's case, extremely good) Cup Managers.

Take away the rather fortuitous penalty victory in the Champions League against Milan, and Rafa's record really isn't all that. Even Avram Grant managed to get to a CL final, such was the dominance of the EPL in Europe from 2005 onwards. Fergle and Wenger both managed it also in that same period. Difference being Rafa never ever looked like winning the league in England, not even when they came second. It was over long before the end of the season.

Which means Rafa was no better than Houllier at Liverpool.

And now, he's managing to bungle it at Inter, despute having one of the strongest squads in Europe.

Mr Shit

Man Utd won the league in week 37. 2008-09 was Livrpool's 1st genuine title challenge since, forever.

Jose never made a CL final with Chelsea, so in that respect he is worse than Grant.

Inter's squad is old, who had them as favourites this time last year?

Ramos had a chance to win La Liga in 2007, and lost it - he's not in Benitez' calibre to be honest.

What about Wenger over this time period? He and Benitez are tied 3-3 when it comes to league finishes in Rafa's time in the Prem.

Benitez ko'd Barca (victory in the Camp Nou), thrashed Madrid, Jose's Chelsea twice, Inter, was 1-1 vs. Ancelotti's Milan, beat Juve, beat Arsenal...

Liverpool never had a strong enough squad for the long haul and whilst he made errors with Transfers, his margin for error was far less than Jose & Fergie, and ulike Wenger, his bosses demanded that he win the league, not just finish in the top 4.

Noah and the Bale wrote:Can we not throw Juande Ramos into the mix aswell?

What he did at Sevilla was almost as impressive as Rafa at Valencia

Nothing like as impressive.

4th/5th place and UEFA Cup finals is exactly what Sevilla should have been achieving based on the players that were brought into the club (not JR's choice).

Sevilla's form would fluctuate with the form of their Sporting director.

Noah and the Bale wrote:
He also won us the CC in his first and only season (even if it was mostly Jol's team)

I was talking Jose, Rafa, Van gaal, Ancellotti, Lippi, Del Bosque - we're talking CL's, league titles, world cups - the you go and bring in Juande Ramos, Jol and Rumbelow's cups

Noah and the Bale wrote:
But here's the rub - Ramos and Rafa achieved league success in Spain, in their home countries. Outside of it, both are/were good (in Rafa's case, extremely good) Cup Managers.

Liverpool were miles behind United, Arsenal when Rafa took over - they were hardly going to be any thing other than a cup team but he moved them on to a much better class of cup

Noah and the Bale wrote:
Take away the rather fortuitous penalty victory in the Champions League against Milan, and Rafa's record really isn't all that

Oh are we taking away "rather fortuitous victorys"

How about Porto v United, Porto v Deportivo, Porto v Celtic.

Benitez won 2 big shootouts in CL and one in an FA Cup final - how fortuitous

Noah and the Bale wrote:
Even Avram Grant managed to get to a CL final, such was the dominance of the EPL in Europe from 2005 onwards. Fergle and Wenger both managed it also in that same period

ie started by Rafa - the 1st man to get an English team to a CL final in 6 years?

The man who got the to 2 finals in 3 years.

Noah and the Bale wrote:
Difference being Rafa never ever looked like winning the league in England, not even when they came second. It was over long before the end of the season.

You know my views on that season - I can't possibly make them in this thread without Saints turning up and starting an even bigger quote-fest than the one we are starting now.

Noah and the Bale wrote:
Which means Rafa was no better than Houllier at Liverpool

Absolute bollocks I'm afraid - rafa's CL exploits shit all over Houllier's rather fortuitous victory over Alaves and his 08/09 team were far better than anything Houllier could come up with.

Noah and the Bale wrote:
And now, he's managing to bungle it at Inter, despute having one of the strongest squads in Europe.

True story.

Very old squad who can't play Rafa's football mind but he should adapt his methods to suit the players at his disposal.

Most of his squad would have heart-attacks if they pressed like his Liverpool team.

Should never take over from someone who has won the treble - a hiding to nothing and he has done huge damge to his reputation.

Let's work on the basis that Rafa is Mr. Shit.

Mr. Shit

Jaime wrote:

debaser wrote:Inter are doing shit after winning everything last year.

Liverpool are doing shit after being shit last year.

Both Inter this year and Liverpool last year were managed by, and to, the same shit.

Ergo he is Mr.Shit.

Simple logic

Hi Pierre, I'm asking permission to forward your posts here to Inter board of directors.

All those IFs and BUTs and reframing and selectively picking facts make such a depiction of a loser that it could be the tipping point in persuading Moratti to sack the lardie baldie.

Pierre Littbarski wrote:

Noah and the Bale wrote:
Difference being Rafa never ever looked like winning the league in England, not even when they came second. It was over long before the end of the season.

You know my views on that season - I can't possibly make them in this thread without Saints turning up and starting an even bigger quote-fest than the one we are starting now.

Hardly. I've said on numerous occasions that Man Utd were less deserving of the title that season than Liverpool were. That said, Liverpool did have as many refereeing decisions go their way as Man Utd that season, so I don't for one moment buy the ridiculous conspiracy theory that the FA and referees prevented Liverpool from winning it.

As to the thread question - as bad as Hodgson has been in terms of PR, nothing he's done was quite as pathetic as Rafa's Kevin Keegan moment. It was all downhill after that for him and for Liverpool too, not to mention half the things he said were demonstrably untrue. As such, I'd say Rafa's the worse manager. He's vastly overrated. A good coach and tactician, but a rubbish motivator and shit when it comes to transfers. Over £200 million spent in five years at Liverpool and they ended up with a worse squad than when he started, at least according to Andy Gray.

Noah and the Bale wrote:Can we not throw Juande Ramos into the mix aswell?

What he did at Sevilla was almost as impressive as Rafa at Valencia.

He also won us the CC in his first and only season (even if it was mostly Jol's team).

But here's the rub - Ramos and Rafa achieved league success in Spain, in their home countries. Outside of it, both are/were good (in Rafa's case, extremely good) Cup Managers.

Take away the rather fortuitous penalty victory in the Champions League against Milan, and Rafa's record really isn't all that. Even Avram Grant managed to get to a CL final, such was the dominance of the EPL in Europe from 2005 onwards. Fergle and Wenger both managed it also in that same period. Difference being Rafa never ever looked like winning the league in England, not even when they came second. It was over long before the end of the season.

Which means Rafa was no better than Houllier at Liverpool.

And now, he's managing to bungle it at Inter, despute having one of the strongest squads in Europe.

Mr Shit

Tell me you are kidding TRWP. I can't tell if you are merely poking at the pro Benitez crowd who at the same time are anti Roy.

How can you compare those two?

After 2004-2005 Spain wasn't particularly good and in 2007 Barcelona had finished their cycle of succes while Real Madrid were still quite poor despite the eventual league win. It was in this climate that Sevilla competed and they were even nr.1 from christmas but they choked at a time when the Big 2 were there for the taking. Monchi(the sportsdirector) was on fire at this time and it seemed like he constantly made the right choices which is why that Sevilla were already on the up before Juande took over.

On the flip side you have not just one but two victories with Valencia from Benitez! This happend when Spain was the to play in. Deportivo/Barcelona and Real Madrid when they were great. Both Barca and Real Madrid were stronger financially then Valencia. Look at the squad that Valencia won with. The big dogs from the Cl finals(Mendieta/Claudio Lopez) were sold and they never had a good striker Benitez was at the club while Barcelona had Kluivert and Saviola and Real Madrid had Raul/Morientes/Ronaldo!

The Inter job wasn't as easy as it may have looked. I don't know how much you follow Italian football but this is a squad that has won it all and is getting on a bit. Add that they have won EVERYTHING and the peaked last year plus WC fatigue then it isn't so strange that Benitez has struggled. However we were a couple on here who pointed out that this was going to be harder then it seemed and especially because Moratti is trying to trim the spending in the next couple of years. Mourinho never had to battle with that. With all that said Benitez is certainly not off the hook and even when he has had players ready he has made some strange moves. You are certainly right to point to some of the critcism of Roy which has been somewhat excessive and rather hypocritical when it is coming from some of the people who are defending Benitez at the same time.

the barca and madrid team when rafa was at valencia was hardly great, well let me speak for barca and leave madrid out of it, that barca team was not at all great, good but not great and valencia may not have had as much money has barca and madrid then, but they were one of the best clubs in europe back then, getting to a CL final the year before rafa took over if memory serves me right.

Santiago Cañizares, Roberto Ayala, Rubén Baraja, David Albelda, Vicente and Pablo Aimar, hardly poor players.

but yeah, can't compare what rafa did with what ramos did, they're in too totally different league.

but i don't like when people make it out as if rafa made miracles with a shit valencia team, he had one of the best teams in Europe at his disposal back then

Messiah wrote:the barca and madrid team when rafa was at valencia was hardly great, well let me speak for barca and leave madrid out of it, that barca team was not at all great, good but not great and valencia may not have had as much money has barca and madrid then, but they were one of the best clubs in europe back then, getting to a CL final the year before rafa took over if memory serves me right.

Santiago Cañizares, Roberto Ayala, Rubén Baraja, David Albelda, Vicente and Pablo Aimar, hardly poor players.

but yeah, can't compare what rafa did with what ramos did, they're in too totally different league.

but i don't like when people make it out as if rafa made miracles with a shit valencia team, he had one of the best teams in Europe at his disposal back then

You are absolutely right about those players but we often hear in England how Benitez won CL with Houllier's team but you never hear about Mourinho winning with Ranieri's team.

Imagine inheriting a team with consecutive 2nd place finishes and a CL semi place - then being given the sort of money where you can buy Paulo Ferreira for £12m!

people then too look over a lot of shit when it comes to jose, but i guess thats just the mystique of the man or something.

its just like how people rag against mancini for winning serie A after Calciopoli, but gives jose credit for his league titles forgetting the fact that the likes of juve and milan were and perhaps still are feeling the effects of Calciopoli.

Pierre Littbarski wrote:You are absolutely right about those players but we often hear in England how Benitez won CL with Houllier's team but you never hear about Mourinho winning with Ranieri's team.

Imagine inheriting a team with consecutive 2nd place finishes and a CL semi place - then being given the sort of money where you can buy Paulo Ferreira for £12m!

Mourinho signed Carvalho, Essien and Drogba, and that is what made the key difference between a very good Ranieri side and an outstanding Mourinho side. It wasn't Ranieri's squad in the same way as the 2005 CL winning Liverpool squad was Houllier's.

which makes what rafa did(though down to the kind of luck we will prehaps never see again) even more impressive, as the "Houllier's" on paper and no business getting pass the CL QF, much less winning it.

Jose improved with millions at his disposal what was already a very good team and i don't think he got them to the CL final.

Inter needs to give rafa some time, he is not by cup of tea when it comes to managers, but you can't argue with what he has done so far in his career.

I heard a rumour that Liverpool's best player and top goalscorer in the Champions League 2005 winning team were Xabi Alonso and Luis Garcia. Two of Houllier's best ever signings. Rafa was so lucky to inherit them.

Essien signed in 2005, right?

2004 signings - Carvalho, Drogba. Kezman, Tiago were two prolific failures.

OTHO, Terry, Lmapard were all improved into solid players under Ranieri. Mourinho sorted out the defence by pairing an already WC Carvalho next to Terry.


2005 CL winning Liverpool had Rafa's signings Alonso and Luis Garcia who were both vital to Pool's CL campaign.

Yeah they had little bit of luck but so does every team that wins the CL including MQUC.

Ballast wrote:

Pierre Littbarski wrote:You are absolutely right about those players but we often hear in England how Benitez won CL with Houllier's team but you never hear about Mourinho winning with Ranieri's team.

Imagine inheriting a team with consecutive 2nd place finishes and a CL semi place - then being given the sort of money where you can buy Paulo Ferreira for £12m!

Mourinho signed Carvalho, Essien and Drogba, and that is what made the key difference between a very good Ranieri side and an outstanding Mourinho side. It wasn't Ranieri's squad in the same way as the 2005 CL winning Liverpool squad was Houllier's.

A couple of players called Arjen Robben and Petr Cech also arrived in the summer of 2004.

Ferreira was (incredibly) regarded as one of the best right-backs in the world at the time, having played there consistently for the Champions League winners and the Euro 2004 runners-up.

The team Benitez inherited certainly wasn't Champions League winning quality, but it had finished 2nd, 5th and 4th in its 3 previous seasons.

Imagine having the sort of money where you can buy Aquilani for £20m (to put his feet up on the bench for most of the season), Ryan Babel for £12m, Robbie Keane for £19m and Glen Johnson for £17m.

Glenns Gone Wild wrote:I heard a rumour that Liverpool's best player and top goalscorer in the Champions League 2005 winning team were Xabi Alonso and Luis Garcia. Two of Houllier's best ever signings. Rafa was so lucky to inherit them.

Alonso only played in three of the seven knock out stage games (two draws, one win in the final on penalties). I think you need a better rumour mill...

Glenns Gone Wild wrote:I heard a rumour that Liverpool's best player and top goalscorer in the Champions League 2005 winning team were Xabi Alonso and Luis Garcia. Two of Houllier's best ever signings. Rafa was so lucky to inherit them.

Beat me to it.

Pierre Littbarski wrote:

Noah and the Bale wrote:Can we not throw Juande Ramos into the mix aswell?

What he did at Sevilla was almost as impressive as Rafa at Valencia

Nothing like as impressive.

4th/5th place and UEFA Cup finals is exactly what Sevilla should have been achieving based on the players that were brought into the club (not JR's choice).

Sevilla's form would fluctuate with the form of their Sporting director.

Noah and the Bale wrote:
He also won us the CC in his first and only season (even if it was mostly Jol's team)

I was talking Jose, Rafa, Van gaal, Ancellotti, Lippi, Del Bosque - we're talking CL's, league titles, world cups - the you go and bring in Juande Ramos, Jol and Rumbelow's cups

Noah and the Bale wrote:
But here's the rub - Ramos and Rafa achieved league success in Spain, in their home countries. Outside of it, both are/were good (in Rafa's case, extremely good) Cup Managers.

Liverpool were miles behind United, Arsenal when Rafa took over - they were hardly going to be any thing other than a cup team but he moved them on to a much better class of cup

Noah and the Bale wrote:
Take away the rather fortuitous penalty victory in the Champions League against Milan, and Rafa's record really isn't all that

Oh are we taking away "rather fortuitous victorys"

How about Porto v United, Porto v Deportivo, Porto v Celtic.

Benitez won 2 big shootouts in CL and one in an FA Cup final - how fortuitous

Noah and the Bale wrote:
Even Avram Grant managed to get to a CL final, such was the dominance of the EPL in Europe from 2005 onwards. Fergle and Wenger both managed it also in that same period

ie started by Rafa - the 1st man to get an English team to a CL final in 6 years?

The man who got the to 2 finals in 3 years.

Noah and the Bale wrote:
Difference being Rafa never ever looked like winning the league in England, not even when they came second. It was over long before the end of the season.

You know my views on that season - I can't possibly make them in this thread without Saints turning up and starting an even bigger quote-fest than the one we are starting now.

Noah and the Bale wrote:
Which means Rafa was no better than Houllier at Liverpool

Absolute bollocks I'm afraid - rafa's CL exploits shit all over Houllier's rather fortuitous victory over Alaves and his 08/09 team were far better than anything Houllier could come up with.

Noah and the Bale wrote:
And now, he's managing to bungle it at Inter, despute having one of the strongest squads in Europe.

True story.

Very old squad who can't play Rafa's football mind but he should adapt his methods to suit the players at his disposal.

Most of his squad would have heart-attacks if they pressed like his Liverpool team.

Should never take over from someone who has won the treble - a hiding to nothing and he has done huge damge to his reputation.

Pierre - serious question for you now: would Mourinho have set up Inter in a manner which allowed Gareth Bale to humiliate the right hand side of the Inter defence on two seperate occasions? Once is understandable. Twice, after Bale's clear warning at the San Siro, is unforgiveable.

If that had been 'Arry who had done that, we'd never have heard the end of it; and would perhaps have been understandable given 'Arry hasn't won the CL or isn't (rather unfairly) known for his tactical nous.

Rafa, on the other hand, is an absolute SLAVE to tactical formations and nullifying opposition strengths. Yet for a good 2 years of his final end at Liverpool, and his current reign at Inter, he has shown none of this ability. Meanwhile, el classico apart, Mourinho clearly continues to prove he's a little more trustworthy in this regards.

Chins

Pierre Littbarski wrote:

Glenns Gone Wild wrote:I heard a rumour that Liverpool's best player and top goalscorer in the Champions League 2005 winning team were Xabi Alonso and Luis Garcia. Two of Houllier's best ever signings. Rafa was so lucky to inherit them.

Beat me to it.

Ballast wrote:Alonso only played in three of the seven knock out stage games (two draws, one win in the final on penalties).

If Alonso was Liverpool's best player in the 2005 CL side, and only played three knockout games, how shit must the rest of that side have been to have been worse in six or seven games than Alonso was in three?

In which case how much of a fluke must it have been that Liverpool won, with one player playing three games being better than the rest of their team in the four other knockout games?

In which case how little did that win have to do with the manager?

In which case how little credit does Benitez deserve for his role in that accomplishment?

Looked at another way, it was the club rather than the manager that was the draw for Alonso in the summer of 2004. Every man and his dog bid for Alonso at that point, but because ol Xabi was a big Beatles fan and big Liverpool FC fan he chose there. He was at the game on Monday night. Benitez wasn't.

So, even if we say Alonso was the one signing during Benitez's time at Liverpool that indisputably worked out (great performances+massive profit), how much credit does Benitez deserve for it? He bid on a player that every half decent manager in Europe knew was playing very well. He landed him not because he sold himself to the player - they never got along that well, and Benitez is anything but a charmer - but because the player was already in love with the club.

You guys just don't think this shit through. It's like watching a crocodile and a chipmunk trying to organise an orgy with a herd of whales.

Benitez is a very good manager, and he did outstanding work in Spain. He did not do outstanding work at Liverpool. He is presently doing shit work at Inter, but I think it's only fair to give him the rest of the season to prove he can turn things around. For one, his Liverpool side often took a while to get started but performed their best at the business end of the season. For another, he is taking over a side who are on the come down from a huge success, and he isn't the type to instantly inject life into a group of life.

Of course, it is now that those who dislike Benitez are indulging in having a pop at him, because his team are presently doing pretty badly. Their indulgence extends to some unreasonable criticism of the Spanish waiter, and this in turn has led to the pro-Benitez fans extending beyond reasonable praise for him in their efforts to defend him against the unreasonable criticism. It is how almost all conversations go, on almost all topics. Rhetoric is tabloidised, the discussion becomes polarised. Implicitly, there are two sides and you've gotta pick one of them. The reality is that we're all one consciousness, experiencing itself subjectively. We're just ripples in the pond of the space time continuum that God is thinking of building a duckhouse on and wondering if he can claim it on his expenses.