Best team in the world - Centre Backs

Noah and the Bale wrote:Bobo- Actually, I admire physical defenders and understand their place in the team. It's why I stick up for Dawson when he plays for us, as he is a very useful defender in terms of organising, reading and adding physical presence. But, as an individual, he's certainly not threatening the top bracket. Samuel is obviously more proven than Dawson, so this isn't a direct comparison, it's merely that there are centre backs who perform well as part of a unit, but you wouldn't like them left one on one against a forward with even a hint of pace and composure.

Players like nesta, carvahlo, lucio and yes, Ferdinand - these guys are capable of mopping up, winning balls cleanly, bringing the ball out of defence, distributing it. As individuals, a cut above the clogger types.

Of course, the big physical defenders will struggle one on one against a a quick, tricky striker due to their characteristics. I'ts very rare for defenders not to have weaknesses, even at the very highest level. Players like Nesta and Carvalho may do better in the above situation (wouldn't include Ferdinand in this, he got raped by Ronaldo at Old Trafford, and got dicked by Torres etc.) but they may struggle against, for example, a very physical centre forward. Nesta always used to hate playing against Vieri. Even players like Delvecchio and Heskey gave him a tough time during his prime.

Incidentally, cannot be arsed to get into another Ferdinand debate, but he's proven himself on the biggest numerous times, champions league and world cups. Like lucio, prone to lapses in concentration when playing "lesser" games, but the reason he gets away with it and is respected by his own fans- who after all are any players biggest critics- is he performs more often than not when it matters.

I disagree Bernd. The 2 biggest games he's played in are the 2 champions league finals, and he was awful in both of them. Other big champions league games (e.g. Milan 05 or Real Madrid 03) he was not very good either.

Bluey- fair do's, but seeing Samuel in the champions league and at the world cups, I just don't see it- he looks hopelessly exposed when players with a modicum of pace run at him. At White hart lane, he made Peter crouch look mobile. I sense this is much like talking to chelsea fans- most neutrals would tell you of the previous carvahlo-Terry partnership that carvahlo was the stand individual out of the 2 talent wise, whilst Chelsea fans would argue Terry was the reliable rock who performed more consistently.

Noah and the Bale wrote:Bluey- fair do's, but seeing Samuel in the champions league and at the world cups, I just don't see it- he looks hopelessly exposed when players with a modicum of pace run at him. At White hart lane, he made Peter crouch look mobile. I sense this is much like talking to chelsea fans- most neutrals would tell you of the previous carvahlo-Terry partnership that carvahlo was the stand individual out of the 2 talent wise, whilst Chelsea fans would argue Terry was the reliable rock who performed more consistently.

Wasn't that the same game where Maicon was made to look like a Serie C defender? But of course he's undoubtedly a top quality RB...

BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:

Noah and the Bale wrote:Bluey- fair do's, but seeing Samuel in the champions league and at the world cups, I just don't see it- he looks hopelessly exposed when players with a modicum of pace run at him. At White hart lane, he made Peter crouch look mobile. I sense this is much like talking to chelsea fans- most neutrals would tell you of the previous carvahlo-Terry partnership that carvahlo was the stand individual out of the 2 talent wise, whilst Chelsea fans would argue Terry was the reliable rock who performed more consistently.

Wasn't that the same game where Maicon was made to look like a Serie C defender? But of course he's undoubtedly a top quality RB...

BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:(wouldn't include Ferdinand in this, he got raped by Ronaldo at Old Trafford, and got dicked by Torres etc.)

You'd make some interesting points bobo if you didn't frequently contradict yourself.

As for Torres, it was Vidic who he frequently made look a fool. It might go some way towards explaining why Vidic has been sent off numerous times against Liverpool.

Torres gets more wound up by Ferdinand, normally because he struggles to get the better of him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5IMpnQCGJ0

Nesta must hate playing against Rooney too.

There's no contradiction.

As for Torres and Ferdinand:

There is. You sarcastically comment "Wasn't that the same game where Maicon was made to look like a Serie C defender? But of course he's undoubtedly a top quality RB..." having already disregarded Ferdinand's worthiness based on 2 games (I don't buy "etc..")

Well I guess one thing we can agree on is that Samuel would not have allowed Torres to score that goal. He would have made sure he brought Torres down before he could get the shot away.

As for posting the odd mistake here and there, check 3:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikRjSWTGFvQ - Does this mean that Nesta - like Ferdinand - isn't a world class CB, because a world class striker got the better of him once?

Noah and the Bale wrote:Bluey- fair do's, but seeing Samuel in the champions league and at the world cups, I just don't see it- he looks hopelessly exposed when players with a modicum of pace run at him. At White hart lane, he made Peter crouch look mobile. I sense this is much like talking to chelsea fans- most neutrals would tell you of the previous carvahlo-Terry partnership that carvahlo was the stand individual out of the 2 talent wise, whilst Chelsea fans would argue Terry was the reliable rock who performed more consistently.

That's what it comes down for to me. I enjoy the more cultured defenders, but when it comes to completely nullify attacking threats and being a rock, Terry is as good as anyone. It seems a rather arbitrary distinction between Terry and Samuel.

We all prefer Carvalho, and now we all prefer David Luiz, and fair enough, they're not c**ts, but Terry is a rcok for Chelsea, in the same way Samuel has been for Inter.

S4P wrote:There is. You sarcastically comment "Wasn't that the same game where Maicon was made to look like a Serie C defender? But of course he's undoubtedly a top quality RB..." having already disregarded Ferdinand's worthiness based on 2 games (I don't buy "etc..")

I didn't disregard his worthiness based on that. I disregarded his ability to mop up and do well against fast players based on that.

Well I guess one thing we can agree on is that Samuel would not have allowed Torres to score that goal. He would have made sure he brought Torres down before he could get the shot away.

Yes, whatever you say.

As for posting the odd mistake here and there, check 3:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikRjSWTGFvQ - Does this mean that Nesta - like Ferdinand - isn't a world class CB, because a world class striker got the better of him once?

Oh dear... you're still persisting with this ridiculous Nesta-Ferdinand comparison.

BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:

Noah and the Bale wrote:Bluey- fair do's, but seeing Samuel in the champions league and at the world cups, I just don't see it- he looks hopelessly exposed when players with a modicum of pace run at him. At White hart lane, he made Peter crouch look mobile. I sense this is much like talking to chelsea fans- most neutrals would tell you of the previous carvahlo-Terry partnership that carvahlo was the stand individual out of the 2 talent wise, whilst Chelsea fans would argue Terry was the reliable rock who performed more consistently.

Wasn't that the same game where Maicon was made to look like a Serie C defender? But of course he's undoubtedly a top quality RB...

Maicon being hailed a taxi is pretty rare.

With Samuel - it's rather more a common occurence

Joris Mathijsen is better than half the players in that list !

Terry, Vermaelen, Carvalho & Douglas for me.

Noah and the Bale wrote:

BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:

Noah and the Bale wrote:Bluey- fair do's, but seeing Samuel in the champions league and at the world cups, I just don't see it- he looks hopelessly exposed when players with a modicum of pace run at him. At White hart lane, he made Peter crouch look mobile. I sense this is much like talking to chelsea fans- most neutrals would tell you of the previous carvahlo-Terry partnership that carvahlo was the stand individual out of the 2 talent wise, whilst Chelsea fans would argue Terry was the reliable rock who performed more consistently.

Wasn't that the same game where Maicon was made to look like a Serie C defender? But of course he's undoubtedly a top quality RB...

Maicon being hailed a taxi is pretty rare.

With Samuel - it's rather more a common occurence

i disagree

I could go into a lot of detail about your posts bobo, but what's the point? You'll only just post a load of " and " without giving any constructive opinions back, so in answer to your 3 points, I'll just leave you with this:

BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:

COTR wrote:Ferdinand has had a brilliant career Bobo

I disagree.

BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:Comparing Ferdinand with Nesta and Samuel.... :doh

Great dive by Kalou (arms up and everything)

The only mistake the referee made there, was not giving Kalou a yellow card.

And that's why some people don't take you seriously. At least pretend to be objective.

Hlebagone wrote:And that's why some people don't take you seriously. At least pretend to be objective.

Please grow up Kevin. People have different opinions. If someone's opinion is different from yours, it doesn't mean their not objective.

The photo shows Kalou with his hands in the air, and he's shouting about something too for some reason. Looks like he is trying very hard to con the referee.

BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:

Hlebagone wrote:And that's why some people don't take you seriously. At least pretend to be objective.

Please grow up Kevin. People have different opinions. If someone's opinion is different from yours, it doesn't mean their not objective.

The photo shows Kalou with his hands in the air, and he's shouting about something too for some reason. Looks like he is trying very hard to con the referee.

But (i stuttered) surely, surely, you aren't selectively using a photo to prove your point when you've clearly seen the video of Samuel going through the back of Kalou whilst telling me to grow up.

To be fair Booboo was possibly the only man in the world who didn't think it was a penalty at the time it happened. Not that this helps his argument much.

Yeah, it's probably best for everyone's sanity this can of worms isnt open again. Besides, everyone knows that videos are far easier to give a wrong impression that picture.

COTR wrote:To be fair Booboo was possibly the only man in the world who didn't think it was a penalty at the time it happened. Not that this helps his argument much.

erm...the referee?

Hlebagone wrote:But (i stuttered) surely, surely, you aren't selectively using a photo to prove your point when you've clearly seen the video of Samuel going through the back of Kalou whilst telling me to grow up.

I didn't post the photo.

We also saw Kalou flailing his hands like his little pussy and going down as if he'd been shot by a sniper. The ref and the linesman didn't give it, but i'm sure they wern't objective, just like anyone else who doesn't agree with what you think.

BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:Great dive by Kalou (arms up and everything)

The only mistake the referee made there, was not giving Kalou a yellow card.

Players don't react well to being booked for diving

BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:

Hlebagone wrote:But (i stuttered) surely, surely, you aren't selectively using a photo to prove your point when you've clearly seen the video of Samuel going through the back of Kalou whilst telling me to grow up.

I didn't post the photo.

We also saw Kalou flailing his hands like his little pussy and going down as if he'd been shot by a sniper. The ref and the linesman didn't give it, but i'm sure they wern't objective, just like anyone else who doesn't agree with what you think.

This isn't a game of who posted the photo. Everyone knows the video, refer to that.

Fair point. This is the only example I can think of a referee and linesman making a mistake ever. I'm sure this is done to a lack of objectivity, rather than anything to do with their competence.

I remember at the time, because poor patriot that I am, I was cheering for Inter Milan. So whilst not a beacon of objectivity, I think I'm somewhat better placed than an Inter Milan fan who seems to have come out of the closet. (For supporting Inter Milan, don't want any confusion here).

COTR wrote:To be fair Booboo was possibly the only man in the world who didn't think it was a penalty at the time it happened. Not that this helps his argument much.

I didn't think it was a penalty at the time it happened.

When the replay was dissected the day after on tv an on the net, I acknowledged that it could have been a penalty (while still thinking that it wasn't outrageous that the referee didn't catch it).

What I really don't get (even if I understand that the real point of contention is a neverending and quite amusing forum debate feud going on here) is how that episode could be used against Samuel.

The action started with a Chelsea's long range throw-in on which Samuel was perfectly positioning to intercept.
Zanetti deflected the ball with a misplaced header which wrongfooted Samuel and resulted in a perfect assist for Kalou. This gifted Kalou a 2 meter advantage which allowed him to enter the box ahead of Samuel.

Can't understand what you expected Samuel to do at this point.

He closed in tailgating Kalou trying to disturb him and put him off balance with the pressure of his body, didn't pull it off that clean, as he ended up stepping in his foot, but it was a desperate situation, and he tried the only sane thing to do IMHO.

Hot headed defender would've tried a dumb tackle from behind
Pavid defender would've surrendered
Fast and reckless defender would've tried an extremely risky sideway tackle
Very fast and naive defender would've tried putting himself between Kalou and the goal

Only fictional superhero defender could've cleared that situation with a clean intervention.


'course, IMHO

abundance wrote:

COTR wrote:To be fair Booboo was possibly the only man in the world who didn't think it was a penalty at the time it happened. Not that this helps his argument much.

I didn't think it was a penalty at the time it happened.

When the replay was dissected the day after on tv an on the net, I acknowledged that it could have been a penalty (while still thinking that it wasn't outrageous that the referee didn't catch it).

What I really don't get (even if I understand that the real point of contention is a neverending and quite amusing forum debate feud going on here) is how that episode could be used against Samuel.

The action started with a Chelsea's long range throw-in on which Samuel was perfectly positioning to intercept.
Zanetti deflected the ball with a misplaced header which wrongfooted Samuel and resulted in a perfect assist for Kalou. This gifted Kalou a 2 meter advantage which allowed him to enter the box ahead of Samuel.

Can't understand what you expected Samuel to do at this point.

He closed in tailgating Kalou trying to disturb him and put him off balance with the pressure of his body, didn't pull it off that clean, as he ended up stepping in his foot, but it was a desperate situation, and he tried the only sane thing to do IMHO.

Hot headed defender would've tried a dumb tackle from behind
Pavid defender would've surrendered
Fast and reckless defender would've tried an extremely risky sideway tackle
Very fast and naive defender would've tried putting himself between Kalou and the goal

Only fictional superhero defender could've cleared that situation with a clean intervention.


'course, IMHO

Very articulately put, dude.