Premier League & London Marathon discussion 16th-17th April

hahahahahaha fuck you Arsenal

It doesn't really matter does it. Arsenal were never going to win the title, even if they had taken the three points today. It was a shit match between two shit teams, and most of us would have been better off if we hadn't wasted our time watching it. Arsenal are such a dull team to watch these days, they really are tedious.

A last minute winner. A deficit flipped. An away win. A second win in succession. Who was that team and what have they done with Aston Villa

Wenger: worst loser in football

We Want 5! wrote:Wenger: worst loser in football

No chance

Fergie has been pretty unbeatable in that regard in recent weeks

Arsenal didn't lose the title today, they lost it already with their 1 league win since February policy.

I don't remember where it was posted, but one of the chinnier Gooners was trying to spin Hodgson's record at Anfield as being as good if not better than Dalglish's. And then taunting that he had to play Man City and Arsenal in the next two games. Well I'm pretty sure you can wipe that smirk off your "face". Even if you factor in wins against UEFA part-timers it's impossible to ignore the improvement in results and performances under Dalglish.

Man Utd's 19th title almost certainly means the end of Ferguson, which can only be a good thing for football.

Anton Hysén wrote:Arsenal didn't lose the title today, they lost it already with their 1 league win since February policy.

I don't remember where it was posted, but one of the chinnier Gooners was trying to spin Hodgson's record at Anfield as being as good if not better than Dalglish's. And then taunting that he had to play Man City and Arsenal in the next two games. Well I'm pretty sure you can wipe that smirk off your "face". Even if you factor in wins against UEFA part-timers it's impossible to ignore the improvement in results and performances under Dalglish.

Man Utd's 19th title almost certainly means the end of Ferguson, which can only be a good thing for football.

A few of Kimbo's Dalglish related beauties will also be worth a bump

Where is Punty when you need him

Kimbo, seriously though why can't you admit Dalglish has done a pretty fucking amazing job in his short time here? Surely you can see the complete transformation of how hard we now work as a team and how we've turned Anfield in particular back into a fortress by raping United and City there under Kenny. Stop being a bitter arsehole about Caroll for one second.

He has done a Glenn Roeder, and that's great, I never said he wouldn't. My argument has always been that he will be a bad long term choice. I hope he gets the job and proves me right.

Kimbo wrote:He has done a Glenn Roeder, and that's great, I never said he wouldn't. My argument has always been that he will be a bad long term choice. I hope he gets the job and proves me right.

I don't know how you can possibly know that though or by what logic you're using. If you're using one season ages ago at Newcastle as your only reference point then I think you'll be mistaken. You're also forgetting Liverpool is his club and that he could never work as hard at any other club than he could do at Liverpool.

All the stats point to us improving under him. All the signs are positive. He may prove to be a long-term failure, nothing is certain in football but I can't see who would be better right now for this club and what we're trying to achieve under new ownership than him.

Kimbo wrote:He has done a Glenn Roeder, and that's great, I never said he wouldn't. My argument has always been that he will be a bad long term choice. I hope he gets the job and proves me right.

You said it wouldn't work and we would be better off hiring Keegan, in amongst other chat about us not being any better than Newcastle. Hodgson had you fooled into thinking this team was worse than it is Kimbo. It's ok to admit you were wrong

On a side note, yesterday's game was a perfect explanation of why Rooney's ban for swearing was so ridiculous. In 90 mins, we saw two closeups of fans mouthing "fuck off", a closeup of Fabregas saying "puta madre", a closeup of a 17 year old player (Robinson) going "fuck off", and of course, Dalglish telling Wenger "piss off" followed by "fuck off".

The only difference between all these and Rooney incident was that Rooney's was audible. I think the FA were just itching to get him on something after the Wigan elbow...which I guess does kind of make it right in the end.

He also ran up to the camera, then swore..rather than just being "caught" on camera.

fcb wrote:On a side note, yesterday's game was a perfect explanation of why Rooney's ban for swearing was so ridiculous. In 90 mins, we saw two closeups of fans mouthing "fuck off", a closeup of Fabregas saying "puta madre", a closeup of a 17 year old player (Robinson) going "fuck off", and of course, Dalglish telling Wenger "piss off" followed by "fuck off".

The only difference between all these and Rooney incident was that Rooney's was audible. I think the FA were just itching to get him on something after the Wigan elbow...which I guess does kind of make it right in the end.

No Kas. Are you seriously suggesting that Cesc muttering "puta madre" to himself (which is not all that rude anyway, is it) is on a par with Rooney aggressively shouting abuse into a camera? Dalglish may have told Wenger to piss off, but in a dismissive rather than aggressive fashion.

There's a difference between swearing at someone, and just swearing. This is fucking awesome. Fuck off you c**t.

Not saying the ban was justified, but just making the distinction.

Don't want to even comment on the football right now. Shocked though that Crazy would have taken a point...

Allez, Has Eboue endeared himself further to the Arsenal faithful?

What. The. Fuck. Was. He. Thinking

Perhaps this is the problem with playing excitable Africans. Would a white player have done that? (If anyone thinks I'm being serious, please go forth a multiply)

Nothing wrong with your question. Would we be having this conversation if Eboué was German, Lucas was a man, Wenger was English etc etc.

It's been said many times that he's make a decent footballer if he hactually had a brain. The guy wears fucking Jesus undershirts for fuck's sake, it's obvious he's not the brightest lamp in the street. I've never wanted to string him up from a lamppost as much as some other fans (tend to reserve that for Diaby), but it is dispiriting. Combination of so many different things.

Allez les rouges wrote:There's a difference between swearing at someone, and just swearing. This is fucking awesome. Fuck off you c**t.

There is indeed, Rooney was just swearing like the unreconstructed chavscum that he is, whereas Dalglish was directly abusing another manager. If that had been Fergie telling Wenger to fuck off, this board would be a single-voiced lynch mob with Arsenal fans leading the charge.

As to Dalglish/Liverpool - what's so stupid is how the Liverpool fans are solely focusing on the manager. When Wodge was around, everything was shit, and it was all Wodge's fault. Now Dalglish is around, everything is great and it's all down to Dalglish. Overlooked is the fact that Hodgson never had the backing of the fans or the players, whereas the media had turned Dalglish into the saviour before a ball had even been kicked under his reign. Likewise, as soon as Hodgson lost a game and made an excuse, the fans were all over him like herpes whereas Dalglish lost a game, blamed the referee, and was lauded by the same fans. It is no wonder, with such blinkered and unwavering support for the manager, that the team would do better under his stewardship. A self-fulfilling prophecy.

Also, Wodge took over a club on the way down on the pitch and on the verge of bankruptcy off the pitch. He also had a negative net spend in his only transfer window, just as for the four previous windows for Liverpool under Benitez. Having the psychological monkey on the back of looming bankruptcy lifted from the team, it is no surprise they started to do better. Having the club's first positive net spend in a transfer window (and not just positive - nearly £60 million invested in the team) for three years, again it is no surprise that the team started to do better.

There are a bunch of factors why Liverpool are doing a bit better now than under Wodge. The fans giving all the credit to Dalglish is just more of their shameful bullshit and relentless hyping of times gone by. If Wodge had had the unwavering support of the fans and the players, and a fawning media dressing him up as the saviour, and 60 million to spend on new attackers, then I'm pretty sure he would have done a bit better. If one compares the improvement in West Brom (without the support Dalglish has received) to the improvement in Liverpool (with no bankruptcy looming, massive psychological support, and £60 million of new players) then I think you get the answer as to who the more talented manager is.

However, the investment probably won't continue on that scale, as it was largely funded by the fortunate sale of a hugely underperforming player. Sooner or later the media will turn, cutting into the same man they've built up over the last few months. It's happened so many times before that it isn't even a prediction, it's a certainty.

Liver fans only like managers who suck up to them and tell them how very, very special they are, as often as possible. Woy's big mistake was failing to do this. If he'd come out with stuff like:

http://football365.com/story/0,17033,8652_6882226,00.html

on a weekly basis, they would've been much more supportive.

Very true. When I've had this conversation with Liverpool fans it always ends up at 'Wodge didn't say what we wanted to hear, whereas Kenny does'. It is truly amazing how dumb football fans are, and how easily led they are by cult of personality propaganda.

debaser wrote:Liver fans only like managers who suck up to them and tell them how very, very special they are, as often as possible. Woy's big mistake was failing to do this. If he'd come out with stuff like:

http://football365.com/story/0,17033,8652_6882226,00.html

on a weekly basis, they would've been much more supportive.

Roy's big mistake was guiding us into the relegation zone when we were a stable top 6 club for well over a decade or two. Even if Roy had said things like "We want to go into the next game and win to try and achieve at least a European place" instead of "it will be difficult going into this home game with Blackpool" or "I am satisfied with a draw, it felt like a win" his shockingly poor results would have cost him his job anyway.

I suppose being a Villa fan you're used to mediocrity but us Liverpool fans are used to glorious wins over Madrid, Barca and both Milan clubs over the last 6 years and so when a manager comes in who understands that we're still a big club with several quality players that should be aiming high then yes we're going to like him.

Luis wrote:

debaser wrote:Liver fans only like managers who suck up to them and tell them how very, very special they are, as often as possible. Woy's big mistake was failing to do this. If he'd come out with stuff like:

http://football365.com/story/0,17033,8652_6882226,00.html

on a weekly basis, they would've been much more supportive.

Roy's big mistake was guiding us into the relegation zone when we were a stable top 6 club for well over a decade or two. Even if Roy had said things like "We want to go into the next game and win to try and achieve at least a European place" instead of "it will be difficult going into this home game with Blackpool" or "I am satisfied with a draw, it felt like a win" his shockingly poor results would have cost him his job anyway.

I suppose being a Villa fan you're used to mediocrity but us Liverpool fans are used to glorious wins over Madrid, Barca and both Milan clubs over the last 6 years and so when a manager comes in who understands that we're still a big club with several quality players that should be aiming high then yes we're going to like him.

My contention is that if he'd done more of the 'Wiverpool is Wonderful' thing at the start, the dip into relegation zone probably wouldn't have happened as players wouldn't have been so low in confidence from the hateful fans.

Houllier made similar mistake(s) at Villa (I do mock you Liver fans, but you're not really so different from any other club's fans). One of his first interviews included a phrase where he said something like 'Villa's natural position is between 7th and 12th' - I'm sure many neutrals would (wrongly!) agree with this, but fans clearly aren't going to like that and it immediately got people unhappy with him..Then came the whole Anfield debarcle where again he was seen to care more about his old club than Villa and again it cost him a lot of support. And when fans ain't on board, player confidence drops, you start getting bad run of results and downward spiral..

Fun little exercise that I found reading the F365 mailbox: Google for "Wenger blames"



The first page returns:


...referee
...bad luck
...Man Utd. pitch
...grieving Gunners (wtf )
...energy levels
...lack of focus
...international break
...complacency


The funniest part is, every one of those is from the 2010-2011 season

Don't know why one would do that. But finally got something to really about!

"Wenger Blames"...."Barton"

Spurs 0-5 Madrid wrote:

Allez les rouges wrote:There's a difference between swearing at someone, and just swearing. This is fucking awesome. Fuck off you c**t.

There is indeed, Rooney was just swearing like the unreconstructed chavscum that he is, whereas Dalglish was directly abusing another manager. If that had been Fergie telling Wenger to fuck off, this board would be a single-voiced lynch mob with Arsenal fans leading the charge.

As to Dalglish/Liverpool - what's so stupid is how the Liverpool fans are solely focusing on the manager. When Wodge was around, everything was shit, and it was all Wodge's fault. Now Dalglish is around, everything is great and it's all down to Dalglish. Overlooked is the fact that Hodgson never had the backing of the fans or the players, whereas the media had turned Dalglish into the saviour before a ball had even been kicked under his reign. Likewise, as soon as Hodgson lost a game and made an excuse, the fans were all over him like herpes whereas Dalglish lost a game, blamed the referee, and was lauded by the same fans. It is no wonder, with such blinkered and unwavering support for the manager, that the team would do better under his stewardship. A self-fulfilling prophecy.

Also, Wodge took over a club on the way down on the pitch and on the verge of bankruptcy off the pitch. He also had a negative net spend in his only transfer window, just as for the four previous windows for Liverpool under Benitez. Having the psychological monkey on the back of looming bankruptcy lifted from the team, it is no surprise they started to do better. Having the club's first positive net spend in a transfer window (and not just positive - nearly £60 million invested in the team) for three years, again it is no surprise that the team started to do better.

There are a bunch of factors why Liverpool are doing a bit better now than under Wodge. The fans giving all the credit to Dalglish is just more of their shameful bullshit and relentless hyping of times gone by. If Wodge had had the unwavering support of the fans and the players, and a fawning media dressing him up as the saviour, and 60 million to spend on new attackers, then I'm pretty sure he would have done a bit better. If one compares the improvement in West Brom (without the support Dalglish has received) to the improvement in Liverpool (with no bankruptcy looming, massive psychological support, and £60 million of new players) then I think you get the answer as to who the more talented manager is.

However, the investment probably won't continue on that scale, as it was largely funded by the fortunate sale of a hugely underperforming player. Sooner or later the media will turn, cutting into the same man they've built up over the last few months. It's happened so many times before that it isn't even a prediction, it's a certainty.

Oh look, he is back onto his favourite topic

Good to see the spanking you got when you last visited this topic hasn't put you off Sainty.

Needless to say Roy did not start off without the fans or the players backing (in fact the players still insist to this very day how good a man he was). Roy's problems from a playing perspective were purely tactical and all of his own doing (Poulsen, Konchesky, Meireles the right winger, rigid 4-4-2, playing Ngog every game, endless hoofing etc etc etc). This enabled him to achieve the worst start to a premier league campaign by any Liverpool manager. Only then came the excuses, the baffling press conferences, the me me me attitude.

Dalglish is being praised for fostering team spirit, speaking like a Liverpool manager, acting like a Liverpool manager and crucially achieving decent results and playing in a manner the fans want to see and can identify progress with. Roy lost first and foremost because of his results and failure to stamp any sort of positive template on the way the team played.

All of this has been explained to you on numerous occasions (usually before you get laughed out of a thread for making a fool of yourself). Seriously go study the man's record. You will see little of any real note by way of achievement and certainly not for any sustained period of time.

debaser wrote:

My contention is that if he'd done more of the 'Wiverpool is Wonderful' thing at the start, the dip into relegation zone probably wouldn't have happened as players wouldn't have been so low in confidence from the hateful fans.

Houllier made similar mistake(s) at Villa (I do mock you Liver fans, but you're not really so different from any other club's fans). One of his first interviews included a phrase where he said something like 'Villa's natural position is between 7th and 12th' - I'm sure many neutrals would (wrongly!) agree with this, but fans clearly aren't going to like that and it immediately got people unhappy with him..Then came the whole Anfield debarcle where again he was seen to care more about his old club than Villa and again it cost him a lot of support. And when fans ain't on board, player confidence drops, you start getting bad run of results and downward spiral..

Read a decent article from Brian Reade a few weeks on this


Like Roy Hodgson at Liverpool, Gerard Houllier is being FOUND out by fans rather than DRIVEN out
By Brian Reade

It would be nice if UEFA’s veteran technical advisors occasionally descended from their Ivory Towers to admit the flaws in their own ability.

I’d have more respect for men such as Roy Hodgson and Gerard Houllier (who when “resting” between coaching jobs are flown round the world by UEFA to compile critical reports) if they confessed their own technical limitations. If they admitted that when it comes to the highest level of management they may just be out of their depth.

Instead, both arrogantly wave away any criticism of their ability with the dismissive air of pseudo-intellectual academics.

As Hodgson faces his old club today, he’s telling everyone it was the fans who got him the sack at Anfield. That every Kopite wanted Kenny Dalglish appointed last July, which meant he was doomed from the off.


That’s just not true.

There was no mass call for Dalglish to succeed Rafa Benitez. The majority of supporters may have been ­underwhelmed by Hodgson’s appointment but backed it and willed him to succeed.

They only started calling for Dalglish five months into ­Hodgson’s reign when they were in despair over most of his woeful summer signings, his negative tactics and his clear inability to motivate world-class players.

They concluded that Hodgson’s coaching strengths lay in helping lower-to-mid-table teams punch above their weight, which made him the wrong man for Liverpool.

To carry on blaming the fans for his abject failure only serves to prove his blindness to his own limitations.

Even if he beats Dalglish’s side today and pushes relegation ­strugglers West Brom closer to safety, it won’t vindicate his ­reputation but serve to confirm it.

Houllier, it seems, is equally blinded to his own culpability in Aston Villa’s fall from top six side under Martin O’Neill, to relegation fodder under him.

Indeed, he blamed a recent defeat at Bolton on the zonal marking system he inherited from O’Neill. But apart from the fact Villa didn’t defend corners zonally under O’Neill, Houllier has been in charge since last September. So why didn’t this technical genius change it?

This week, he pointed the finger of blame at his players. Not just the indisciplined like Richard Dunne and James Collins, the banished like Stephen Warnock, but those who turn it on for their country yet turn it off for him.

“We’ve a squad half-full of international players so should be able to cope,” he said, before claiming the manager may be responsible for the results “but the players are responsible for the game”.

Feel free to unravel that denial of guilt if you can.

Houllier has never been short of excuses.

He still puts his failure to qualify for the 1994 World Cup as France boss totally down to one poor David Ginola cross.

At Liverpool, he refused to see that not getting anywhere near winning the Premier League or Champions League meant he had ultimately failed, instead painting his time there as an unmitigated success.

Who will he blame if Villa fans’ anger towards him reaches breaking point and he is forced out at the end of the season?

Probably them.

No doubt, like Hodgson, after he’s pocketed his hefty pay-off, he will put his sacking down to their hostility rather than his lack of ability.

Despite the truth being, that, like Hodgson at ­Liverpool, Houllier isn’t being driven out, just found out.

But when it comes to them writing their own technical report into their time in charge, don’t expect them to admit it.

As long as UEFA view them as coaching geniuses of the highest calibre, so will they.

COTR wrote:Oh look, he is back onto his favourite topic

Good to see the spanking you got when you last visited this topic hasn't put you off Sainty.

See what I mean about Liverpool supporters living off past so-called glories?

Needless to say Roy did not start off without the fans or the players backing (in fact the players still insist to this very day how good a man he was). Roy's problems from a playing perspective were purely tactical and all of his own doing (Poulsen, Konchesky, Meireles the right winger, rigid 4-4-2, playing Ngog every game, endless hoofing etc etc etc). This enabled him to achieve the worst start to a premier league campaign by any Liverpool manager. Only then came the excuses, the baffling press conferences, the me me me attitude.

Dalglish has played Meireles on the right wing. And the left wing. You don't criticise him for it. Simples.

Dalglish is being praised for fostering team spirit, speaking like a Liverpool manager, acting like a Liverpool manager and crucially achieving decent results and playing in a manner the fans want to see and can identify progress with. Roy lost first and foremost because of his results and failure to stamp any sort of positive template on the way the team played.

You yourself have complained on several occasions about Liverpool's performances since Dalglish took over. As to his relentless 'Liverpool are so special, the fans are so special' garbage - if delusion makes you happy then so be it. In two years you'll be exactly where you are now, and everyone outside of the insular Liverpool FC bubble knows it.

All of this has been explained to you on numerous occasions (usually before you get laughed out of a thread for making a fool of yourself). Seriously go study the man's record. You will see little of any real note by way of achievement and certainly not for any sustained period of time.

What has Dalglish achieved? Wodge was an excellent manager at Fulham, and got them overachieving. He was pretty dire for five months at Liverpool. He has since been excellent at West Brom. It doesn't take a genius to see where the problem was. It just takes someone marginally less blinkered and self-assuming than a Liverpool fan.

I'm happy with Dalglish as manager. He'll keep up the platitudes, and in the end that's all you'll have left. Liverpool had their brief blip upwards when you had Benitez and a fair bit of money to spend. That's over, you're now back in mediocrity with the rest of the shitmuncher clubs. Kenny isn't going to fix that, but by Christ it is going to be fun watching you lot keep on claiming that he will, indefinitely, until like Benitez you all turn sour on him and makes yourselves into the victims once more. Like I say, it isn't even a prediction, it's that fucking certain to happen.

No doubt you'll go away feeling you've 'schooled' me once again, as though anyone apart from you gives a shit.

Dalglish has played Meireles on the right wing. And the left wing. You don't criticise him for it. Simples.

Hodgson played him on the touchline of a rigid formation. Dalglish has only rarely used him starting from wide but switching between Kuyt and Suarez. It's a more fluid formation based on movement and keeping the ball where it is supposed to be.

You yourself have complained on several occasions about Liverpool's performances since Dalglish took over. As to his relentless 'Liverpool are so special, the fans are so special' garbage - if delusion makes you happy then so be it. In two years you'll be exactly where you are now, and everyone outside of the insular Liverpool FC bubble knows it.

Can you find a fan anywhere who doesn't moan on the odd occasion about how the team is playing ? Is this really a line of defence you are trying to go with ?

Any positives Dalglish has brought to the style of the team greatly outweigh any negatives (the only one I can think of is playing Carragher as a fullback, enforced by injuries).

His press conferences are grounded and humorous, sensible and realistic. He offers support to the players instead of alienating them and blaming them as Roy did. It is so obvious even the press have picked up upon it. Not quite sure how it has managed to fly over your head.

What has Dalglish achieved?

Do you mean in the time since he took over ? In that case what he has acheived is fairly obvious and was addressed in my previous post

If you mean in his career then of course he is a multi league winner as a manager

I'm happy with Dalglish as manager. He'll keep up the platitudes, and in the end that's all you'll have left. Liverpool had their brief blip upwards when you had Benitez and a fair bit of money to spend. That's over, you're now back in mediocrity with the rest of the shitmuncher clubs. Kenny isn't going to fix that, but by Christ it is going to be fun watching you lot keep on claiming that he will, indefinitely, until like Benitez you all turn sour on him and makes yourselves into the victims once more. Like I say, it isn't even a prediction, it's that fucking certain to happen.

This is just bitter rambling. Pretty embarrassing really. You have no real idea what plans the new owners have on investing in the team. Neither do I. All we currently have to go on is Dalglish's recent statement that whoever is managing Liverpool come the summer will have plenty of money to spend.

Interesting. When Liverpool sacked Hodgson they were 12th, 11 points off 4th place (but had a game in hand on the team in 4th).

Now they are 6th, 7 points off the top (which will become 10 if Manchester City win their game in hand, or Spurs win their 2 games in hand).

So while you cannot deny that there has been progress under Dalglish in terms of league position they haven't closed the gap on the top 4 (and have in fact fallen further behind if you factor in games in hand).

Swings and roundabouts. Dalglish's team play better football, but the side is also better than the one Hodgson had during his time.

It's best to reserve judgement on Dalglish's performance until next season.

Misleading stats S4P

Go fetch the leagues points tally under both and you'll see the variation

Dalglish will of course continue to be judged throughout his time as manager but he has done little wrong so far, especially after what came before. He has also had to deal with an injury crisis Roy did not experience so it's also misleading to say there are now better players at his disposal

COTR wrote:Misleading stats S4P

Go fetch the leagues points tally under both and you'll see the variation

Dalglish will of course continue to be judged throughout his time as manager but he has done little wrong so far, especially after what came before. He has also had to deal with an injury crisis Roy did not experience so it's also misleading to say there are now better players at his disposal

Not really. I would say that Premier league points are a more useful indicator of performance than one person (or a group of people's) opinion. The holy grail for Liverpool fans is the top 4 and although performances have been much improved under Dalglish, they are likely to have lost ground on the top 4 once the games-in-hand have been factored in.

Who is injured? Gerrard? While this may have had some significance, Liverpool fans have been repeatedly saying that his performances have been a shadow of what they have been in previous seasons. Let's also not overlook the fact that Dalglish has had the fortune of being reprieved of the out-of-form nuisance that was Torres and acquired a very good partnership in Suarez and Carrol. That too has some significance.