Iniesta is better than Zidane

see the great thing about FO and other like him, besides him failing to see that football have moved beyond the individual.is that they are hindsight geniuses, I am sure that going into the O9 final you would be hard press to find many outside barca fans who thought barca would so dominate the game and win. but since the barca players have gone on to do great things the hindsight geniuses can stupidly mock what barca did, but what were they saying then.
to hindsight

Someone was asking for Xavi's assist record the other day.

Just found this on fcblive,these stats are just for us(Barcelona):

#Xavi Stats in 628 official games for Barcelona (1998-2012): 376W, 145D, 107 L (60% winning) - 554 Starts #fcblive 72 goals & 141 assists

That Zidane only scored 2 goals vs Brazil in that WC final, but didn't 'boss' the game is absolute nonsense. He was up against Cafu (the best RB in last 20 years - But again, Xavi plays with even better FB in Dani Alves as per you. Enough testament to 'quality' these days ) and Dunga (the best DM of 90's), and he came tops. Created chances for (hold your breath) Guivarc'h, who fluffed as usual. And still contributed to controlling the game for France with LOADS of touches and passes. Obviously not having enough 'good on the ball' MFs around him to do triangles, would mean the touch/pass being lesser in the 'quantity'. But he was the main trequartista, I'd give him a 9.9999/10 for his performance. 10 years on, he 'BOSSED' another game against Brazil. Cafu still there, along with G.Silva, Ze-R and the other R's.

Messi/Cron scoring 50-70 goals, it's more like Field Hockey these days. Says a lot about the current state of affairs in Liga (hardly a 'great' league any more. Zidane OTOH played when it was the best league in the world. He also played in Serie A when it was best in the world. True story.)

he has contributed to 214 goals from a CM position. WOW.
fade I don't listen to hindsight geniuses. I also never said alves was the best just as good as any, but cafu in that sevilla side and watch them not win the uefa cup twice, but alves in that roma team or the WC 02 team, brazil still wins the WC. I have never known of a FB having 15 assist in one season, he probably averages something close to that per season.but everything in football after zidane is shit

wont be a hindsight genius like you and list all the average players that played in the 90's as it doesnt prove anything

More fodder on this myth that Zidane never performed or bossed the game, Ancelotti's Juve playing Capello's Roma in 2000-01 season end, Juve were leading 2-0 with both involving Zidane (Assited, a delightful move + cross to DP, and scored one himself), leading 2-0, but through out with match Van Der Saar looked shaky and couldn't hold on to a cross . Nakata comes on and immediately scores a long ranger through him and then VDS almost inexplicably flaps another long range shot for Montella to tap in. Costing Zidane a Serie A title. I would say it's a fair do that Zidane move on from Juve, in chase of CL, while Juve bought quality replacements for all deficiencies in the side (Nedeved + Thuram + Buffon).

Willing to bet that Napoli side under Maradona is no worse than Ancelotti Juve, as you said, assuming a hypothetical scenario where Maradona is sold for a huge fee, and Napoli buying 2-3 WC players, I'd assume they'd have done just as successful without him (Much like Juve did post-Zidane).

In full agreement with Abundance here.

abundance wrote:

messiah wrote:Do Europeans not understand the air quotes "shit", I am aware he had a good team around him, it's just that maradona is one of those that people constantly say won it single-handedly

Ok then I got caught in the typical "Why I wasn't consulted!?!" debate reflex

messiah wrote:Ok it seems a need to spell it out maradona help a very talented Napoli team to 2 league titles, but those Naopli teams didn't have as much talent has Juve and madrid had, now I am expecting the best player since maradona surrounded by better players to have been able to help those teams to more than 3 league titles given that he had a better supporting cast.

Let's assume that even if it's not that straightforward to judge, anyway my point is, Maradona's Napoli was a very good team but not the very best around, Ancelotti's Juve was a very good team but Eriksson's Lazio and Capello's Milan were better, so not much difference.

3 worms on a shirt wrote:
99 they lost del piero earlyin the season and then after that zidane couldn't up to the plate. bbefore del piero got injured they were on course for the title. didn't lippi resign?

There was a general burn out from what I remember apart from Del Piero injury.
And yeah Lippi resigned, whatevs, it's just because both parties were too full of themselves to swallow sacking/getting the sack.
They had to part ways there were physical confrontations during training sessions by then.

3 worms on a shirt wrote:in 00 they had like a 15 point lead or sumink and then lost it. Chokers!

Ancelotti's effect
And that last game in Perugia played in 20cm of rain after almost 1 hour of suspension.

3 worms on a shirt wrote:
01 they lost to a roma side with tomassi in midfield

And Batistuta, Totti, Montella, Cafu, Candela, Emerson, Samuel... and their boss Capello.

The Easter Bunny wrote:Abundance, what are your thoughts behind Zidane?

Already allowed myself to get too much into this "shit" =D

I'll just say, I remember seeing Zidane for the first time in autumn '96 in a bar (1st year with pay-tv football, God seems another life), Juventus-Inter
At the time I knew shit about foreign players, I was so happy we got this Djorkaeff bloke who perfomed well at the Euros if I remember correctly and was super skillful and a joy to watch, while Juve got this balding guy who was heralded as the second coming of Platini, but he seemed slow to adapt, and Agnelli himself said he was crap at the Euro.
Watched this game and my jaw dropped, he was so bossing that I remember thinking "no way we possibly do anything about this, for years"
Fast forward almost 10 years, I'm in the crowd on the banks of the river Arno in front of a 8x4m screen and this guy now totally bald is still pwning away from me the joy of seeing my team succeed.
Respect.


Nowadays there's no player I enjoy watching more than Iniesta, he's a mesmerizing experience, but it's different. Maybe it's just that I'm older and duller.

Oh, My point being that Zidane's excellence against Cafu will always carry a whole lot more weight than the current generation vs most other RBs. It has to be said.

Incidentally, Cafu did play in that aforementioned Juve-Roma 2-2 game. But Zidane played a more central role (though he does waltz over to left, to cross for DP's first goal) alongside Davids & Tacchinardi, a weird Ancelotti special, with Zambrotta down the wings.

messiah wrote:alves in that roma team or the WC 02 team, brazil still wins the WC.

Needless to say I disagree. Violently.

who ssid zidsne never bossed a game professor hindsight, I said not to the level xavi did nor as consistently

I Will also throw out some names, professor hindsight, Rio,Vidic,Giggs,Scholes,Ronaldo, are should Man U have had XI world class players on the pitch like every top team did in the time of zidane.

Also lets say everything is true about him in serie A, why didn't he win more thsn one league title for madrid with the likes of raul,figo and ronaldo to help him, thats not including Carlos,Iker and Hierro, he was the great zidane that could do all xavi could plus all iniesta could surely he could have helped his team to overhaul superdepor and valencia more than once.

Just admit it was no where near as consistent as either xavi or iniesta over the course of the season, if you want to say france wouldn't have won anything without him, go ahead a would agree, thats far from him winning it signle-handedly i might add, but when it comes to a 50+ game season, he couldn't touch either.

Not to the 'level', what level? Against a MF of Carrick-Anderson-Giggs with Busquets and Iniesta. I'd say, it's par for the course that the latter would dominate it. And dead rubber of La Liga every week, I'd pass on.

What 'list names'. Please disprove what I said. Wasn't Zidane up against these players? Isn't he effectively controlling those patches of the pitch over gold-standard players, plus impacting the game with his goals, plus creating chances, all on
grandest of stages. Obviously when you bring up CL final 2009, I'd bring up WC final 1998. Might come as news to you but that Brazil side will thrash United and some. Especially that midfield will kill Fergie's patchwork (not a knock on him, but more knock on his skill level of MF's in this era )

And I also await your disagreement over Juve-Roma clash, pivotal to him missing out on Serie A title. Or the aforementioned system that I'm 'listing'. I'm amused to think you'd connote I'm factually incorrect here.

After all this, you'd come out with Totti >> Zidane (Totti was subbed for Nakata for the aforementioned game FYI), Rui Costa >> Zidane, Veron >> Zidane, in selected instalments. I don't expect better.

And Zidane's vs classical DM's and classical FB's will always carry more individual weight than a 3 point MF with triangles and keep possession. Not to forget much unlike Xavi's, a well-drilled system where they are all brought through the academy and of a singular philosophy, he made many systems work. But post-Makelele, Zidane's Real had a distinct lack of DM (and ageing/non-defenders), that was clearly the problem.

01-02 = CL
02-03 = League
03-04 = 9 more goals scored than Barca (letting in a record 54 goals)
04-05 = Only 2 less goals scored than Barca (improvement but again a very bad defense)
05-06 = 10 less goals scored (still worse than Barca defensively)

Let's use your Alves theory here, I'd be hard pressed to find people disagreeing that Zidane in that Barca XI would enhance it, and as Bluey said, he'd be treated as a peer to Messi, not support cast like XaviIniesta.

As for Zidane not being consistent, it's akin to saying that Xavi never was consistent in games he hadn't scored or assisted.

Zidane's playmaking was already too modern for that generation. Lone survivor from that gen (this is exactly the point that Bluey tried to make with his first post)

And of all words, you'd use 'capricious'. You're surely speaking of Arshavin and not Zidane here, I'm afraid.

'Professor hindsight', surely as evidenced here, it's you who is making fake assumptions and when likes of Abundance corrects or examines your blanket assertion, you come back to fresh assertive statements, without having the decency to acknowledge it.

Sorry if It had all come off harangued on you. But you do a good job of sounding moronic with your age-related cheap-shots, obsessively bring this matter out to Tennis threads, pettiness with 'professor Hindisght' 'Zidane effect' and what not.

My last post on this matter.

shit load of excuses for zidane is all i see, you are so bias you can't even admit to the clearly fact that xavi was more consistent than zidane

Its also funny how every team back in the day was better than today's team, but all the teams that zidane played for didn't have the much talent,


@ it's akin to saying that Xavi never was consistent in games he hadn't scored or assisted, no one woudld say that because that wasn't his job, goals and assist or just a plus for him, and he had 72 and 141 according tp fcblive, so he did his job brillianantly and then some.


You are just too bias, I hate henry and ronaldo and will never rate them personally, but I would never argue with someone calling them legends of the game.

Finally I thought Busquets wasn't that good(he was shit back then to most), how could he help xavi boss a midfield, again hindsight geniuses, but not to worry their is a lot of them on here.

"all the teams that zidane played for didn't have the much talent"
No one said that. But he played with many double/treble pivots (before joining Real) that his job was far more complex. He had to enrich those many midfield combinations. And as shocking as it may be to you, he did.

As Abundance said, your whole theory of him being the reason why Juve lost Serie A titles were way off the mark. He was one of their consistent players.

Ditto Real. Problems were elsewhere.

And literally every viewer/pundit/ex-player/coaches who have watched him for all 10 years have said he's been top of his game through out. Not in 'spurts'.

Re.Quality of teams vs Zidane era, obviously far stronger than Messi era. No comments on quality of La Liga. And Serie A the best league of the time. Or the richest era of International scene. With very many Golden generations.

Similarly no one would say goals + Assists are Zidane's job if they had an understanding of the game. He was clearly the most modern of midfielders, a prototype for likes of Iniesta, or what have you. Except he excelled in era of much purer no.10's like Totti, Bergkamp, who had better 'figures'..

And I've said busquets is one of the best DM's around with good passing and technical skills here. Maybe not at the time, but so what? I'd believe almost every football fan banks on his hindsight. At least there's some line of sight. I've even expressed a possibility of Zidane playing with Busquets, enhancing Zidane's game.


As for 'Too bias', coming from you!

I never said he is the reason juve lost. one man cant win or lose by himself in a team sport. I said given the talent he has played with and him being the 2nd coming and all one would expect him to have HELPED those teams to more success at club level.
of course i'm bais but at least I am willing to admit it

remember when zidane headbutted that guy from hamburger? u wouldnt see xavi do that

3 worms on a shirt wrote:remember when zidane headbutted that guy from hamburger? u wouldnt see xavi do that

that's because xavi's face would be in the guy's balls

iniesta wins player of euro12.

110% wrote:

3 worms on a shirt wrote:remember when zidane headbutted that guy from hamburger? u wouldnt see xavi do that

that's because xavi's face would be in the guy's balls

Pirlo deserved it tbh.

Xavi doeesn't play finals he wins them

messiah wrote:

Xavi doeesn't play finals he wins them

Of course Casillas has never lost a final, Xavi well...I seem to remember something happened in 2011...it was in Mestalla...hmmm....

Cope del rey doesn't count, nah damn it i can't say a bad word about that madridista SOB

Clears throat

go f**k yourself Worms and Messiah you pair of gluebags, you said that xavi gave one of the greatest performances against arsenal, that game was won by messi on his own, and this utter sh*t about zidane not controlling games, go and watch every 2006 world cup games zidane played in, especially the brazil game, he f**ked all their players, including ronaldinho and an in form kaka, show me xavi scoring the best goal in champions league history, zidane had so much more to offer than just passing to messi

the oracle wrote:go f**k yourself Worms and Messiah you pair of gluebags, you said that xavi gave one of the greatest performances against arsenal, that game was won by messi on his own, and this utter sh*t about zidane not controlling games, go and watch every 2006 world cup games zidane played in, especially the brazil game, he f**ked all their players, including ronaldinho and an in form kaka, show me xavi scoring the best goal in champions league history, zidane had so much more to offer than just passing to messi

*BANG*