SAMMER on HOLLAND

chrissi has already posted the link to this very interesting Sammer interview in the Nationalmannschaft thread; well worth reading; the guy sounds like a knows what he is talking about

this is what Sammer had to say about Dutch football:

""""

A: Meine Zielstellung ist Qualität. Meine Prognose ist nicht: Durchschnitt. Sie ist: Weltspitze. Der Deutsche Fußball-Bund muss immer die Topqualität im Auge haben.

Q: Da galten die Holländer in ihrer Nachwuchsförderung jahrzehntelang als vorbildlich.

A: Ich sehe in deren System aber auch Gefahren: Ist es richtig, einen 16-Jährigen, wie es im niederländischen Fußball gemacht wird, in ein festes Schema reinzupressen, und ihm damit eine positionsbezogene Blindheit aufzuzwingen? Ich meine, es ist absolut falsch, Kinder heute schon in Schemata reinzupressen in ihrer individuellen Entwicklung. Grundordnungen für Mannschaften sind wichtig, ich warne aber vor einer zu frühen Spezialisierung.

Q: Die Holländer lassen ihre Mannschaften von der U 15 bis zur A-Nationalmannschaft konsequent 4-3-3 spielen, so dass jeder Spieler genau weiß, was er zu tun hat.

A: Sie sind aber außer 1988 nie vor den Deutschen angekommen! Das ist jetzt kein gutes Argument von mir. Das ist populistischer Käse. Respekt, wie die Laufwege der Holländer funktionieren. Aber wo finden sie Lösungen, wenn es eng wird? Dann stoßen sie regelmäßig brutal an ihre Grenzen.

Ok, my German is not that good. Summary or explanation?

Since 1988 Holland did significant better than Germany so he is talking shit!

ricardojol wrote:Since 1988 Holland did significant better than Germany so he is talking shit!

Let us take a look...


WC 1990
Germany: World Champion
Holland: Second round

EC 1992
Germany: Finalist
Holland: Semi-Finalist

WC 1994
Germany: 1/4-finalist
Holland: 1/4-finalist

EC 1996
Germany: European Champion
Holland: 1/4-finalist

WC 1998
Germany: 1/4-finalist
Holland: Semi-finalist

EC 2000
Germany: Group stages
Holland: Semi-finalist

WC 2002
Germany: Finalist
Holland: Not even qualified

EC 2004
Germany: Group stages
Holland: Semi-finalist

WC 2006
Germany: Semi-finalist
Holland: Second round



Conclusion: If he talks 'shit', you're talking horseshit.

BLUT!

Quick question for you.

Some time back, you were talking about Ballack.

Did you say something like, he shouldnt be considered an attacking midfielder anymore?

boro, Ballack's role in die Nationalmannschaft is more of a DMC than a attacking midfielder these days, he actually initiated that change himself. The Mannschaft plays with two DMCs, Frings and Ballack, and two other midfielders (Schweinsteiger and Schneider) on the wings. Ballack is the "more attacking" guy in the central midfield, but he plays deeper than he used to, e.g. in 2002. This reduces his goal threat, but stabilises our defence considerably, so he can help the team better this way. The strikers are there to score the goals, and they do that well. A few years ago, we simply lacked prolific strikers.

thought so

I was telling the rest of 'em, but they wouldnt believe me

do the Germans ever talk about anything else than Dutch football?

toon h wrote:do the Germans ever talk about anything else than Dutch football?

not really... occasioanlly they'll talk about weiner schnitzel..

Ballack wrote:

toon h wrote:do the Germans ever talk about anything else than Dutch football?

not really... occasioanlly they'll talk about weiner schnitzel..

Maybe we German and Dutch have to eat together a "Wiedergutmachen Schnitzel" to improve the relation between us...

[quote="blutgraetsche"]

ricardojol wrote:Since 1988 Holland did significant better than Germany so he is talking shit!

Let us take a look...


WC 1990
Germany: World Champion
Holland: Second round

EC 1992
Germany: Finalist
Holland: Semi-Finalist

WC 1994
Germany: 1/4-finalist
Holland: 1/4-finalist

EC 1996
Germany: European Champion
Holland: 1/4-finalist

WC 1998
Germany: 1/4-finalist
Holland: Semi-finalist

EC 2000
Germany: Group stages
Holland: Semi-finalist

WC 2002
Germany: Finalist
Holland: Not even qualified

EC 2004
Germany: Group stages
Holland: Semi-finalist

WC 2006
Germany: Semi-finalist
Holland: Second round

So from 1988 it is all square

Both won 1 Euro title

Holland 1988
Germany 1996

Holland did better in 1988, 1998, 2000, 2004
Germany did better in 1990, 1992, 1996 2002, 2006

All square in 1994

We Dutchies won more games against the Germans in this period
We Dutchies produced more talents in that period

We Dutchies won two euro cup 1's
the Germans won also two Euro cup 1's

We Dutchies won two Uefa Cup's
the Germans won 3

So in fact it is all square but in games between us we won more games against the Germans....

and, because Germany have 7 times more active footballers in the country than the Dutchies you should have done it 7 times better than the Dutchies....

Conclusion: relatively Dutchland was better than Deutchland in this period...

BTW..

Toon h, it is now official the Germans are suffering from a Hollandphobia... the only racist thing that is still allowed in that country...

Are you for real ricardo? Miraculously "forgetting" to mention that we won a World Cup during this period, and been in another World Cup final, something Holland hasn't achieved for almost 30 years. And probably will never achieve again. This fact alone makes your nonsense 'argumentation' redundant and baseless.

Besides, Sammer was talking about the national team, not the league. And he said himself that his sentence about 1988 was polemic and "Käse" (cheese). But to no surprise, that's the only sentence you concentrated your well-founded critique on. Must be the special affection for cheese you Dutchies have.

toon h wrote:do the Germans ever talk about anything else than Dutch football?

Dutchies, learn German and read the interview. The Interviewer actually praised the Dutch youth system as exemplary and leading. Sammer didn't disagree with that, he just mentioned the weaknesses in his opinion, and why it is not the best idea to copy it. Instead of condemning the man, try to understand him first. You may actually win something again if you learn some self-criticism.

If you're looking true German glasses, yes you have been more successful. But then again what is successful

Look i compare Germany always with a rich/fat kid. They one you only go to his house, to play with his latest Playstation. Nothing more. It's not that the German football team is beloved around our globe.

Now look at Holland!!! Yes we don't have that much silverware. And still....the world frecking love us We are the poor handsome boy, that everyone wants to be!!!

Is it because of our play style?? Our Shirts??? Or does the people love Holland because of the fact, our concern is to win but win with style

It's kinda amusing that otto actually starts a serious thread for a change, but it's the Dutchies who are doing the wind-ups.

Dear spoiled brat brothers to the West, the reason people (used to) admire Dutch football is because of your style of play. Not the orange shirts, not because you are "poor and handsome" (you are actually ridiculously rich) and what not, but the attacking, free-flowing Dutch style of football that was very attractive even from the neutral perspective. I'm saying "was", because you guys considerably damaged this good image of yours during the world cup.

what did I do wrong during the world cup?

blutgraetsche wrote:It's kinda amusing that otto actually starts a serious thread for a change, but it's the Dutchies who are doing the wind-ups.

Your definition of a windup....is a windup itself....using my definition of a windup, that is

If you think there's one non-German left on these boards, who takes a thread made by Otto about football serious, you really should get out more

Axeslammer ! wrote:

If you think there's one non-German left on these boards, who takes a thread made by Otto about football serious, you really should get out more

@axe

why is it that you seem to know so much more about sexy female film characters, than about football and those writing about it?

you clearly come from the country that has produced Famke but is still awaiting its first Football World Champions

maybe we should put Ashley Judd and Rene Russo into a Germany shirt and you would begin to see the beauty and power of the colour white

==============

strange that no Dutchy has really responded to Sammer's basic premise that your 433 system, and the fact that your players are too system bound and therefore not flexible enough is part of the reason why Holland tend to fail in the latter stages of tournaments. What am I saying? Nowadays it's the EARLY stages IF you qualify at all

Otto,

It looks to me that Sammer just wants some attention. I think he is still bitter that he didn’t got the job for die Mannschaft

By saying that our players are bound to a 4-3-3 system is just talking rubbish. "Think before you speak" would my late grandmother said to him. He should now that NOT the players are willing the 4-3-3 system but its Johan Cruyff that decides that we should play with a 4-3-3 system: shock:

And why we never won the WC?? Good question, was it just bad luck?? Lack of Teamgeist?? We could debate endlessly about this.

But then again, maybe its better not to have won it YET. Now we have something to aim for, something to dream of.

And you know dreams are always more beautiful than the reality..

Fey wrote:Otto,

It looks to me that Sammer just wants some attention. I think he is still bitter that he didn’t got the job for die Mannschaft

@fey

Sammer is not interested in attention at all

he is our new Sports Director, and if anything, since his appointment he has been invisible, shying away from the limelight altogether whilst Ziegenthaler, Loew and Bierhoff were doing all the talking

Sammer claims he studied the game in detail and talked to all sorts of people to find out where the game should go in Germany

his comments above are interesting in that they are the exact opposite of what Bierhoff and Ziegenthaler have been trying to do

the old Klinsi gang believes that Germany should pick ONE SYSTEM and play it through every age group : Argentina and Holland are frequently used as examples we should follow. Our journalists like the idea as well; apparently, it's MODERN

Sammer effectively contradicts the others by putting more emphasis on training players as individuals (their technique and character) rather than putting systems first

he is basically saying what I have been thinking for a long time

WHY this obsession with Holland and Argentina ? Neither country is challenging regularly for trophies despite playing their "superior" system football ?!

a power-battle within the DFB lies ahead

I am surprised that my fellow Germans on here have not picked up on the conflict ; it really is a significant interview

I still can't believe it why a large country with 80 mln people take so much care about a country with 16 mln people! Why this obsession?

Otto

Sammer is the one realises not to change a winning concept. And why should Germany do that anyway? On that point I agree with him

So you're telling me that the DFB want to change it to a more Dutch model?? Interesting indeed.

What would be the reason for it? Getting the same recognition that we get over the world? Or is Germany planning to create the ultimate football team? Total-football meets Teamgeist?

If they succeed, the future will be black and white then

Germans aren't creative enough for that... It is not in their soul....

@ ric

there is far less obsession with Holland than you would like us to believe

on this board it's merely banter, and getting more recently, because our English friends are simply no longer remotely competitive; it's like having a beauty contest between your average Newcastle girl and them beach beauties on the Cote d'Azur

our so-called experts are completely deluded about Argentina and Holland as football powers, it's a joke which I don't get at all either; Ric, we finally agree

it's partly due to an inferiority complex about not playing as entertainingly as the Argies or you lot, or so the cliche goes

it's a farce

Ziegenthaler endlessly droning on about Argentina makes me particularly angry

Germany have been FAR MORE competitive than those Gauchos in the past, yet apparently we should copy them

still, the Bierhoff gang has some good ideas and getting Hockey World Champion Peters on board is one of them

the problem is that the Bierhoff vs Sammer stand-off means "Sand im Getriebe"; it just cannot work; I would like to see Bierhoff resign and take over as commercial manager of Hertha BSC with Sammer taking on responsibility of the U-21 as well; Peters can then do his stuff without being seen as Bierhoff's boy

It's a good article. Read it a few days ago and was actually surprised about Sammer's analytic expertise.

Not sure what the deal is with this Holland-Germany grudge match on here.

Otto, you seem to have misunderstood him. Sammer and Löw (Klinsmann, Siegenthaler etc.) actually have a very similar view on this issue, as he repeatedly said himself in the interview. Specialisation itself is not a bad thing, doing it too early is. And having the same system(s) in your youth and senior team(s) actually makes a lot of sense also, and does not necessarily mean that you have to give up tactical flexibility. The point is to 'automatise' the 'routes' on the pitch, but not in a way that you are 'dependent' on it.
The Dutch almost 'religiously' stick to their 4-3-3 system, that is the problem. The Argies are actually more flexible than that.

The Mannschaft currently prefers a 4-4-2 system with two DMCs and two creative wingers, but we can easily switch to a diamond formation in the midfield, for example, e.g. against weaker opponents, as could be last seen in the match against San Marino. Your accusations against Löw (God, your obsession with Klinsmann and anything related to him is worse than Nutwing's with Torres...) are therefore baseless.

blutgraetsche wrote:

toon h wrote:do the Germans ever talk about anything else than Dutch football?

Dutchies, learn German and read the interview. The Interviewer actually praised the Dutch youth system as exemplary and leading. Sammer didn't disagree with that, he just mentioned the weaknesses in his opinion, and why it is not the best idea to copy it. Instead of condemning the man, try to understand him first. You may actually win something again if you learn some self-criticism.

so did he talk about Dutch football or not?

It just seem you lot are obsessed with it. I am not condemning anybody.

Actually, it's just a small part of the interview, and he talked about Dutch football because the interviewer asked him to. The interviewer praised the Dutch youth system, and Sammer explained his view on it.

toon, you should rather be glad about all the attention you guys are getting these days. If San Marco continues like that, nobody might be interested soon.

But we still have Foppe, the European Champion with the U-21....

Your youth teams are excellent indeed, as could be seen just recently, when your U17 side beat ours 2:0. Our U17 side (and the other current youth teams) is actually pretty strong, they beat the Italian U17 team 4:1 in the same (small) competition, for example.

But IMHO, Sammer still has a point. Nobody questions that you guys are doing a great job for decades as far as the training of your youth is concerned (technique, passing, etc.), but this dogmatism of the 4-3-3 system, which as a consequence means that players are being specialised way too early, is actually hurting your senior team.

You have your system and stick to it, but this makes you predictable at the same time. And if an opponent finds a working counterstrategy, you tend to get frustrated easily, and usually don't have a plan B due to tactical inflexibility.