Premier League and FA Cup Replay 30/31 March 1st April 2013

The real evaluation of Di Canio will take place next season, whether in the Championship or the Premier League. Sunderland have taken a long view; as such, the time to judge the job he can do is in six months or so.

Murray wrote:Of course fascists are lefties.

Eg Adolf Hitler was the leader of the Nazis, which is an abbreviation of the German National Socialists Workers Party. Can't get any more lefty than that.

Super Mourinho wrote:It is hardly as crazy as you make it out to be nor is it that unusual a view. It depends on your spectrum of political ideology. I'm guessing Murray is a small government guy and from that is how they view the spectrum. Right wing wants to limit the scope of government while the left wants to expand it. Under this definition fascism is obviously left wing because it was socialist in that in interfered with civil society and the market more than any other including some social democrats. It really depends on how measure ideology. I personally disagree with Murray but it is hardly crazy to think so. Many classical liberal thinkers saw it the same way.

Nevertheless the theory of output as a whole, which is what the following book purports to provide, is much more easily adapted to the conditions of a totalitarian state, than is the theory of the production and distribution of a given output produced under conditions of free competition and a large measure of laissez-faire.

This conflict must not be allowed to cancel out all our achievements of the past eighteen years, nor, more importantly, extinguish the hope of a Third Alternative held out by Fascism to mankind fettered between the pillar of capitalist slavery and the post of Marxist chaos.
—Benito Mussolini, 1940

Super Mourinho wrote:I completely disagree. Fascists were against the free market and not for it. They advocated that govenment take over control of the economy.

No they took it over for themselves. Under fascists and Nazis companies such as IG Farben and many others made a fortune. Hitler for example reneged on his taxes! He was a low tax advocate, especially for himself!

Keynesian economics which is left wing economics praised the fascists economic structure FDR looked to Mussolini for insipiration for his economic project.

Keynesian economics is not left-wing. It is reformist pro-capitalist. FDR was not a socialist. The New Deal was little different from Ted Heath's advocacy of constructive aid. I heard Heath deliver a lecture pointing out that economically it was in the interests of capitalists nations to give aid as it developed markets and trading partners. Ted Heath would turn somersaults in his grave if any dared call him a socialist

The scurge of free market followers John Maynard Keynes wrote this in the German edition introduction of his classic General Theory:

Nevertheless the theory of output as a whole, which is what the following book purports to provide, is much more easily adapted to the conditions of a totalitarian state, than is the theory of the production and distribution of a given output produced under conditions of free competition and a large measure of laissez-faire.

He thought highly of what Hitler was doing in terms of public projects that put people to work. Fascist economics was keynesian economic!

And Keynesian economics is not socialist economics. There is far more to socialism than government ownership. In fact under socialism the state is supposed to wither away. The means of production and hence economic power is supposed to rest in the hands of the workers producing the goods, etc. That is nowhere near Keynesian.

By any standard measure fascist economics would be considered non-marxist socialistic.

No it wouldn't. (See above)

With regards to the naming. Facists consciously took from marxism/socialism because many of them crossed over. They were actively trying to meld items from the left(the idolation of the state, control of the economy for state purpose,the view of the masses, advocating revolution!) and the right(Social order, hierarchy, empire, relative respect for private property). This is why fascism has also been seen as being the third way which is also a reasonable way of placing fascism as well.

Fascism was never a third way - it was capitalism's storm troopers reaction to the threat of revolution after the market capitalism failed miserably (Germany in Weimar Republic times for starters.

Here is the words of Mussolini himself:

This conflict must not be allowed to cancel out all our achievements of the past eighteen years, nor, more importantly, extinguish the hope of a Third Alternative held out by Fascism to mankind fettered between the pillar of capitalist slavery and the post of Marxist chaos.
—Benito Mussolini, 1940

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#Third_Position_economics

Super Mourinho wrote:Again your definition is marxist socialism. Fascist economics is control of the economy but not ownership.
Keynes believed in socialization of investment but not ownership of production. This is socializing the economy which was foreign to what right wingers wanted at that time. Pre-1914 laissez faire ruled the scene. Fascists didn't like the market economy because it was based on self interest whereas they wanted a system under control that would be run for the national interest. Again Keynesianism is left wing compared to the old laissez faire and fascists were accepted because they weren't seen to be as a crazy as marxists. Ian Kershaw did the preeminent work on public opinion in Germany during the Nazi's. The public's big fear was marxists taking over. A direct quote was "At least the national socialist will only take half of my income". That is less socializing than marxists but it is socialistic nonetheless.

The State orders private capital to produce and does not itself function as a producer. Insofar as the State owns enterprises which participate in production, this can be regarded as an exception rather than a general rule. The fascist State does not merely grant the private entrepreneur the right to produce for the market, but insists on production as a duty which must be fulfilled even though there be no profit. The businessman cannot close down his factory or shop because he finds it unprofitable. To do this requires a special permit issues by the authorities

Super Mourinho wrote:If he disagreed with that than he wasn't a fascist on economics. But even that is besides the point. Fascism and Nazism did not have a body of thought out ideology. Within both camps there were people who believed the state should have taken even more control than they did. Likewise there were people close to Mussolini who wanted more free market. Whatever the views it is irrelevant. What matters is what actually happened. One of the premier studies on fascist economics is Gunter Reimann who wrote his book "The Vampire Economy" in 1939. Here is one of his main points:

The State orders private capital to produce and does not itself function as a producer. Insofar as the State owns enterprises which participate in production, this can be regarded as an exception rather than a general rule. The fascist State does not merely grant the private entrepreneur the right to produce for the market, but insists on production as a duty which must be fulfilled even though there be no profit. The businessman cannot close down his factory or shop because he finds it unprofitable. To do this requires a special permit issues by the authorities

Kimbo wrote:Come on lads, this isn't newsnight.




EMP, Di Canio has denied he is a fascist, will that placate your mackem friends? The Durham miners are suddenly fine with him, they're easily won over.

Kimbo wrote:What's your problem with Pardew and Ashley?

EMP wrote:And the words of a lying vicious fascist dictator couldn't possibly be untrue could it?

Xavier wrote:

EMP wrote:And the words of a lying vicious fascist dictator couldn't possibly be untrue could it?

haha, how can they be false when they are part & parcel of defining his own political manifesto? it's like saying Marx was LYING when he wrote WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!

Fascism is very much a modern political phenomenon, which means that it is ultimately 'leftist'... only a far more benign variant than any of the other forms of 'extreme leftism' since it is used to preserve many more traditional socio-economic facets in political life.

National Glennographic wrote:Nottingham Forest midfielder Andy Reid doesn't have an opinion on Di Canio's appointment, according to "a family member"

It was in the news.