Bundesliga rules the waves

let's face it , chaps, as one of Al Pacino's characters once famously said

"Nothing is what is seems"

some people might say the Bundesliga has not really impressed this year

WRONG

Bremen just outplayed La Liga's finest (for the last 45 minutes); word has it that Werder were told by UEFA kick-off was going to be delayed by about an hour; when this turned out to be false the players were in some sort of preparatory haze; once they were ready they kicked ass big-time

+

Bayern have just topped a group with Seria A's finest

and let's face it: Bayern cannot even get past Stuttgart and Schalke in the Bundesliga nowadays, which by definition are all better than all of Seria A

we Teutons have done a Houdini on you

when you were looking at the CL/UEFA Cup tables we were winning the UEFA Cup with Bremen, the CL with Bayern, but most importantly occupying the top 18 Bundesliga spots

now THAT must hurt

I have to admit that The Bundesliga looks easily the strongest team league in Europe this season - you've completely dominated both the CL and UEFA cup

Seriously though, Bayern IMO have a good chance of geting to the quarters and from there anyone can win

Ahh, at least you mentioned it, but this post wasn't as good as the pre-match one

Still, I said yesterday and I repeat, here's hoping Bremen win the UEFA cup (and then Diego and Naldo want to leave and come to us).

not even otto could put a good spin on this game

unlucky mate

don't worry chaps

I'll write you a Barca-Bremen Post Mortem post tomorrow

unfortunately, it'll probably sound more like a Death March than a conversation between Graham Norton, Russel Brand, David Walliams and Catherine Tate

did not have the time and frankly energy to get my thoughts together so far

a quick look at the match thread and the Bremen thread suggests that an awful lot still remains to be said

Could of been 5-0 in the first 30 minutes, Barca out of bremens league.

Thank you Hanburg anyway - first time I've genuinely supported a German team 100%

Hey Otto,

You seen HSV today? VDV was amazing, pure class. Could just saved Doll's head for another week. Atouba he should be fired, or resign himself if he had any dignity left.

Tho the bad news is Adriaanse just signed for some Ukranian team so I kinda fear the worst for HSV. Especially after VDV will leave this winter( It's a public secret he got tired of this struggling)

L r d wrote:Could of been 5-0 in the first 30 minutes, Barca out of bremens league.

@lard

you , as a true fan of beautiful football you should be devasted that Bremen are out of the CL

meanwhile, I see that 002 is adding to his mighty tally of international goals

by the way, would you like to talk about Cricket right now: I feel like it

@ tweeds

let's hope this HSV win will be a turning point of their dire season; they really should keep Doll

@ fey

Adriaanse to manage a Ukrainian team sounds like a money move

greedy bastard

VDV will go nowhere this winter; he has a contract after all and the fans would already like to string up Beiersdorfer and Hoffmann

no chance

Otto,

you could put a spin on anything it seems. Alistair Campbell has nothing on you.

You say Bremen "outplayed" Barca, most of us know Barca had done the early damage and sat back in the seond hal to pick Bremen off, which they could, and should have done.

I felt for Bremen though, particularly because the first goal came from a piece of Ronaldinho theatrics (ultimately executed with real style though).

But other than that, it seems the MONSTER is the new 00 agent of the CL; rather like Daniel Craig taking over from Pierce Brosnan, the baton has been handed from Rooney to Klose.

I expect Bremen will do very well in the UEFA cup mind - there is still every chance both Bayern and Bremen contest a final this year, stranger things have happened. But for now, its been pretty pitiful from the Bundesliga.

I wouldn't say that its been handed over - they're both grasping it at the same time like a loving couple holding a hamper

The Real White Christmas wrote:Otto,

you could put a spin on anything it seems. Alistair Campbell has nothing on you.

You say Bremen "outplayed" Barca, most of us know Barca had done the early damage and sat back in the seond hal to pick Bremen off, which they could, and should have done.

I felt for Bremen though, particularly because the first goal came from a piece of Ronaldinho theatrics (ultimately executed with real style though).

But other than that, it seems the MONSTER is the new 00 agent of the CL; rather like Daniel Craig taking over from Pierce Brosnan, the baton has been handed from Rooney to Klose.

I expect Bremen will do very well in the UEFA cup mind - there is still every chance both Bayern and Bremen contest a final this year, stranger things have happened. But for now, its been pretty pitiful from the Bundesliga.

Don't wind them up Pele. I can hear the pitter-patter of goose-steps making their way towards your door

The world class Klose, who plays for the most attacking team in europe is the champions league top scorer with 0 goals. Has he ever scored against a good team? Bremen were chasing shadows in the Nou Camp, Barca without Messi and Eto, made them look like a pub side.

Bayern did well to top the group although if Inter didnt insist on collecting red cards rather than goals, would have topped the group easily.

So German football isnt exactly ruling the waves, that title belongs to the premiership, who are all top of there group.

Otto, did you check out the Grauniad link to an article plus views on whether the Bundesliga should be less competitive and be more of a Bayern/Bremen show if it wants to compete in Europe? Posted it in the Bremen thread...

@allez

I read it

there is some good stuff in it; cannot remember whether Honigstein writes for the SZ or FAZ

the Bremen game has thrown up all sorts of questions which we have to debate in greater detail a bit later (about Bremen, the Bundesliga, German football, misconceptions about football...)

I am too emotionally diappointed to get my teeth in now though

we would also need blutgraetsche to return; he is always useful for that kind of stuff

the Bremen first half debacle has put me into a rather pessimistic mood concerning German football for the first time in ages; I have to calm down first

-----------------------------

different topic: what do you make of Michael Gove ?

otto: Albion's No 1 fan wrote:@ fey

Adriaanse to manage a Ukrainian team sounds like a money move

greedy bastard

he needs to : the cheating Portuguese still haven't paid him...

And they had the audacity to be surprised when he walked out on them

otto: Albion's No 1 fan wrote:@allez

I read it

there is some good stuff in it; cannot remember whether Honigstein writes for the SZ or FAZ

the Bremen game has thrown up all sorts of questions which we have to debate in greater detail a bit later (about Bremen, the Bundesliga, German football, misconceptions about football...)

I am too emotionally diappointed to get my teeth in now though

we would also need blutgraetsche to return; he is always useful for that kind of stuff

the Bremen first half debacle has put me into a rather pessimistic mood concerning German football for the first time in ages; I have to calm down first

-----------------------------

different topic: what do you make of Michael Gove ?

Honigstein is SZ I think...

Agree with you about need for discussion – it really was "Kaninchen vor der Schlange" stuff, as Chrissi said. At least you have to acknowledge that Barça at their best are a wonderful, wonderful team. (Hope they get the Manc shite.) Not sure about the Bundesliga solution and probably not well-informed enough either – but it does seem horribly defeatist and maybe over-simplistic too to wish for a predictable league in order for success on the wider stage...

Michael Gove – that's random as shit! I'm beginning to get a picture of your political and journalistic predilections... ;-) I quite like him, though am no fan of Cameron and his new Tories. He's a bit of a Blairite Tory isn't he... very decent journalist but I suppose jury still out on his merits as a politician. Some touted him as a future Tory leader, not sure I can see it myself.

I'd assumed he was gay but now see he's married to a fellow Times journalist!!

Don't be depressed otto, its only a game

Germany are on par with the Portuguese, Scots and Dutch : just one team left in the CL

Try to spin your way out of the domination of British teams : 5 in the final 16.

I tip my hat to them

@ axe

German football has a problem; there is no question about it

usually , I don't care as long as I can see that/how things are improving

this time I can't

@ allez

suprised you like Gove

I find him hilarious for all the wrong reasons; just thought of him and then you since I have just finished reading the Boris bio; Gove was his LMH stooge

yeah well, plenty of us have LMH stooges no doubt...

really must catch up on my Spectator reading by the way... am well behind. Would you recommend the Bozza bio?

the Boris bio:

enjoyable but weird

Boris has done fanstatically well considering his age; but let's face it, he is still young ,forcing any bio to focus on his first wife, his first job at the Telegraph/Times/Spec...

you get in depth analysis of why his marriage to Allegra failed (yawn), his affair with Petronella (yawn)...

the good chap also does not seem to stand for anyting at all, other than his career and being a clown; it's worked like a treat, and it's entertaining but rather pointless

the thing that did it for me was Boris in Brussels; he blatently invented smear stories about the EU all the time forcing the British press corps to chase his stupid stories and sometimes print similar stuff

if you still had any faith in the integrity of papers like the Telegraph, you won't any more (apparently Hurd wanted to have Boris removed)

the bio is also not very well written

still, there are some hilarious anecdotes; just don't buy the hardback version; it's not worth it; I got it from a friend

Really, I don't see where the problem is with regard to Werder Bremen. Okay, we have lost against Barcelona at Camp Nou, but come on...I mean they're probably the best team in the world, they played at home in Europe's biggest and finest football stadium and they had to win. Now, how many teams would have won there? Probably none, which team are likely to achieve a least a draw there? One, maybe two?

Werder Bremen is a small club with very limited resources. Still we managed to collect 10 points in this group. In many of the other groups we would have reached the second round...that's surely a very good result for us. And most of the other big CL teams if not all wouldn't have survived this group as well...

watched 'ein sommermärchen' yesterday...klinsmann is TOTALLY annoying..suprised the players didnt fall around laughing at his team talks..before the italy game...'they are scared of you....THEY ARE SCARED OF YOU!!!!!'.....

schweinsteiger and frings come across as cool guys though...but ballack not wanting to say thanks to the fans in berlin is also very enlightening...

christmassicross wrote:Really, I don't see where the problem is with regard to Werder Bremen. Okay, we have lost against Barcelona at Camp Nou, but come on...I mean they're probably the best team in the world, they played at home in Europe's biggest and finest football stadium and they had to win. Now, how many teams would have won there? Probably none, which team are likely to achieve a least a draw there? One, maybe two?

Werder Bremen is a small club with very limited resources. Still we managed to collect 10 points in this group. In many of the other groups we would have reached the second round...that's surely a very good result for us. And most of the other big CL teams if not all wouldn't have survived this group as well...

I do hope you're addressing Otto and not me there Chrissi. What Bremen have achieved in the Champions League in that group of death, and some of their superlative performances this season, deserves nothing less than the most heartfelt congratulation. There might be a few little moments of weakness/naivety/lack of experience that stop the club from being a true "Großer" for the time being (and hopefully you'll get there soon), but I think it's precisely the level of performance you'd almost led us to expect (on incredibly limited financial resources compared to the big clubs) that gives rise to the crushing disappointment and depression that even non-Werder fans like me and Otto felt.

You really made us believe, and for that you deserve nothing but thanks.

@ chrissi

there is no shame in losing to Barca at the Nou Camp as long as you put up a fight

the first half of Bremen was some of the most shambolic stuff I have seen in a long time though

it will haunt German football for years to come

@ don't panic

I said similar stuff when the film came out: listening to Klinsi you wonder whether the players took him seriously at all; the heavy Swabian accent did not help; but his behaviour more generally speaking did not convey any authority at all

I liked how Ballack was explaining tactics to Loew and Ziegenthaler

Schweini and Poldi were the stars; top blokes; very cheeky and charming at the same time

Ballack and Kahn not wanting to say goodbye in Berlin was pathetic, really

selfish bastards

As for the Sommermärchen, had a chance to see the ARD broadcast last night, but had to miss it 'cos of Arsenal. V annoying – looks like I'll have to get the DVD; can't wait either way...

otto: Albion's No 1 fan wrote:@ chrissi

there is no shame in losing to Barca at the Nou Camp as long as you put up a fight

the first half of Bremen was some of the most shambolic stuff I have seen in a long time though

it will haunt German football for years to come

@ don't panic

I said similar stuff when the film came out: listening to Klinsi you wonder whether the players took him seriously at all; the heavy Swabian accent did not help; but his behaviour more generally speaking did not convey any authority at all

I liked how Ballack was explaining tactics to Loew and Ziegenthaler

Schweini and Poldi were the stars; top blokes; very cheeky and charming at the same time

Ballack and Kahn not wanting to say goodbye in Berlin was pathetic, really

selfish bastards

Yeah... without spoiling the film for me, is there ANY excuse for Ballack and Kahn's not wanting to go to Berlin (and there was one other wasn't there?)? What selfishness, as you say – will be good to see if Torsten sorted them out in debate. I suppose they must have been feeling crushed at the time...

Otto – I'll find some way to borrow the biog then. And what you say about the Torygraph too – reminds me of the story of the grumpy Glaswegian who wrote in to some newspaper to complain "if you keep printing stuff like this, I'll have to stop borrowing your paper"

@allez

Hurd wanting to have Boris sacked for peddling his stupid lies says it all

the British press have a herd mentality, forever chasing the same stories, trying to outdo each other; once Boris starts getting the juicy headlines with his outrageous nonsense, the others have to follow suit

a few of the lies he peddled were then repeatedly used in the Danish Referendum

personally, I would forbid ANY Englander to do journalism; it does not work; the same applies to the Guardian , Independent...

Luke Harding , the Guardian correspondent in Berlin, is another fruitcake best not had on an empty brain

Ballack and Kahn obviously were disappointed and wanted to get it over with; they knew only too well that millions of Germans wanted to say a proper by and could not have cared less; Ballack then even has a go at Frings, who wants to go to Berlin, for undermining him/changing his opinion