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Parks lives
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christmasborocooper
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    Anti-Anti McClaren Backlash

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    Post by christmasborocooper Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:08 pm

    As I watched the game from the bar of the Holiday Inn hotel outside of Bristol Airport - £109 a night and the stench of pig sh*t thrown in for free - I felt nothing but sorrow and sympathy. Not for the fans, not for the players, but for Steve McClaren.

    I have publicly stated there is something deeply annoying about him and he has a face you'd really like to slap, and I only said it half in jest. As a Boro fan I was always aware he wasn't capable of doing the job, but nonetheless, to berate him so viciously and so personally as fans did last night was verging on the psychotic.

    Let's just say this plainly. It's wrong.

    To direct so much abuse at one man, even a gingery freckled man, is simply disproportionate. He hasn't broken in your house, screwed your daughter and taken a sh*t on your floor. Just remember that he was invited to take the job, the real honour of managing his nation's football team, and is paid handsomely for doing so. If you want to have a go at anyone, it's the FA who should be at the dirty end of the stick.

    McClaren may well be out of his depth but he's not deliberately being awful. Actually, he's probably doing the best he can. Yes, it's not good enough, but he was asked to do this. He's doing what he can. By all means be critical; we all are, but the personal vilification of him as a man is, at least to me, psychologically disturbed.

    It's not as though Steve has personally debased a set of high-achieving players. He's not corrupted something that was pure and wonderful.

    Are the fans berating him the ones who bought the golden generation idea? The very idea sold to them by an anti-Sven press who wanted him out and an Englishman in? Think on and work that one out.

    At the very least, the visceral berating of McClaren is confused. Even if he isn't a great man-manager or motivator, he still has to manage a team of average talent. Don't forget, most journalists have to keep players sweet so they can get stories. It's much easier for the papers to slaughter the manager but ultimately, it's not the manager to blame, it is the players. He can't make them control the ball well or pass it accurately. No international manager can do that.

    Does anyone really think that booing the team after ten minutes will somehow give them confidence to play well? Clearly, they are playing with fear and inhibition just as they did at the World Cup. They play scared because they fear the very reaction we saw writ large on Wednesday. Our unreasonable glorification of them at club level and the even more unreasonable international expectations of their talents is one of the root causes of the last 40 years of mediocrity and failure. The pressure is unbearable for all concerned.

    Sod the money, the egos and the tactics, at the end of all of that they're just f***ing humans with actual emotions. I know in part their role as glamorous rich kids is to be our whipping boys as we grind out a daily existence, fair enough, but there's got to be some balance. Yes it's bloody annoying that they play poorly but they're not evil. To excoriate McClaren as though he's done something really bad, as though he's a kind of war criminal, is plain wrong. More than that, it's mentally ill. You could see the sickness in the eyes of the fans that were abusing him. That's not normal. Get some lithium or Prozac please.

    Anyone with an ounce of humanity would have felt sorry for him last night. You could see the ugly, vile side of humanity. You could see how lynchings happen. I felt at one point that if they could have, they may well have killed him.

    I don't blame him for not doing the press conference either. To sit in front of a group of people who in essence want to say "just admit you're crap Steve" or "you're a bit of a w*nker aren't you...why don't you just f*ck off?" is not something you or I would ever have tolerate or even be in a position to have to endure. Nobody should have to. Not even England's manager. It's inhuman and glories in the base side of human nature.

    His position may be untenable - though don't expect any other manager to achieve much more - but we should never forget he is just a bloke like you and me, and he deserves to be treated like a sentient creature, not a piece of meat to abuse for your own sadistic pleasure.

    The anti-anti-McClaren backlash starts here.

    John Nicholson
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    Post by Deluded F*ck™ Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:11 pm

    Graham Taylor for the I-Pod generation.
    avatar
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    Post by Parks lives Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:13 pm

    ok

    The abuse was over the top and the majority of the fans were complete muppets, all trying to look more Anti-McLaren than the next man.

    Can't feel overly sympathetic though as the thing that annoys me most with McLaren, is he's not learning anything.

    If he should the balls needed, stood up to the media, dropped the players not performing and got us playing some more attractive football he'd get my support.
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    Post by Isco Benny Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:14 pm

    Agreed. The fans reaction at half time was verging on the insane.

    Its actually TOTALLY the media's fault for the unprecedented expectations they put on the English team. The whine and complain but they created the beast - a team playing with the weight of the world on their shoulders.

    I dont buy that the players are average, because we know for example that Rooney is a better individual player than Nugent,

    but Nugent comes to play without the pressure and lack of confidence and outplays his more illustrious team mate
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    Post by shazlx Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:59 pm

    I don't support the hatred shown by these fans but he can end it all by quitting. Not only that but just say in the resignation speech that the pressure from fans/media made the job undoable.

    My real problem with McClaren is, as Parks has said, that he does not learn from his mistakes. Lampard v Gerrard, if you can't choose, drop both and play Carrick or even Barton, he showed more urgency (with composure) than all three so far (obviously only 10 mins). Not only that he comes up with bullshit like (paraphasing here) "we played well against israel but only missed our oppertunities" or "someone told me we were one of the better performers on the weekend".

    Also he can't see the problems with the team. Cashley can't dribble so rarely crosses the half way line productively (this didn't matter at arsenal as it was a passing game). Downing's first instinct is to cross the ball into the box, but there is no one to cross the ball to.
    Lennon can't cross, but he can make short passes and cut back so tell him to do that.
    Rooney is out of form and is a red card waiting to happen, drop him for anyone right now.
    Gerrard is still acting like he's the only one on the pitch, ban him from coming deep just to make long passes, if he's gonna come deep tell him to pass it out.
    If all the goal keepers aren't that good, then don't choose the one who has the weakest distribution.

    etc so many problems but this thicko can't see any of them.
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    Post by Arnaud loves Catherine Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:02 pm

    borocooper wrote:As I watched the game from the bar of the Holiday Inn hotel outside of Bristol Airport - £109 a night and the stench of pig sh*t thrown in for free - I felt nothing but sorrow and sympathy. Not for the fans, not for the players, but for Steve McClaren.

    I have publicly stated there is something deeply annoying about him and he has a face you'd really like to slap, and I only said it half in jest. As a Boro fan I was always aware he wasn't capable of doing the job, but nonetheless, to berate him so viciously and so personally as fans did last night was verging on the psychotic.

    Let's just say this plainly. It's wrong.

    To direct so much abuse at one man, even a gingery freckled man, is simply disproportionate. He hasn't broken in your house, screwed your daughter and taken a sh*t on your floor. Just remember that he was invited to take the job, the real honour of managing his nation's football team, and is paid handsomely for doing so. If you want to have a go at anyone, it's the FA who should be at the dirty end of the stick.

    McClaren may well be out of his depth but he's not deliberately being awful. Actually, he's probably doing the best he can. Yes, it's not good enough, but he was asked to do this. He's doing what he can. By all means be critical; we all are, but the personal vilification of him as a man is, at least to me, psychologically disturbed.

    It's not as though Steve has personally debased a set of high-achieving players. He's not corrupted something that was pure and wonderful.

    Are the fans berating him the ones who bought the golden generation idea? The very idea sold to them by an anti-Sven press who wanted him out and an Englishman in? Think on and work that one out.

    At the very least, the visceral berating of McClaren is confused. Even if he isn't a great man-manager or motivator, he still has to manage a team of average talent. Don't forget, most journalists have to keep players sweet so they can get stories. It's much easier for the papers to slaughter the manager but ultimately, it's not the manager to blame, it is the players. He can't make them control the ball well or pass it accurately. No international manager can do that.

    Does anyone really think that booing the team after ten minutes will somehow give them confidence to play well? Clearly, they are playing with fear and inhibition just as they did at the World Cup. They play scared because they fear the very reaction we saw writ large on Wednesday. Our unreasonable glorification of them at club level and the even more unreasonable international expectations of their talents is one of the root causes of the last 40 years of mediocrity and failure. The pressure is unbearable for all concerned.

    Sod the money, the egos and the tactics, at the end of all of that they're just f***ing humans with actual emotions. I know in part their role as glamorous rich kids is to be our whipping boys as we grind out a daily existence, fair enough, but there's got to be some balance. Yes it's bloody annoying that they play poorly but they're not evil. To excoriate McClaren as though he's done something really bad, as though he's a kind of war criminal, is plain wrong. More than that, it's mentally ill. You could see the sickness in the eyes of the fans that were abusing him. That's not normal. Get some lithium or Prozac please.

    Anyone with an ounce of humanity would have felt sorry for him last night. You could see the ugly, vile side of humanity. You could see how lynchings happen. I felt at one point that if they could have, they may well have killed him.

    I don't blame him for not doing the press conference either. To sit in front of a group of people who in essence want to say "just admit you're crap Steve" or "you're a bit of a w*nker aren't you...why don't you just f*ck off?" is not something you or I would ever have tolerate or even be in a position to have to endure. Nobody should have to. Not even England's manager. It's inhuman and glories in the base side of human nature.

    His position may be untenable - though don't expect any other manager to achieve much more - but we should never forget he is just a bloke like you and me, and he deserves to be treated like a sentient creature, not a piece of meat to abuse for your own sadistic pleasure.

    The anti-anti-McClaren backlash starts here.

    John Nicholson
    Great thread...Don't forget people nowadays have short memories and all particularly biased.Mu fans hated C.Ronaldo after the WC.Now he is their idol again.

    It's all about results Boro mate.Look:If England is arrogant and overhyped(medias,fans and players,manager) and win a trophy so everyone in the world will say "that's normal,the best team won but we dislike England"

    If you are modest and win a trophy then people will say "Fair play to them.They played well and deserved to win the trophy."

    The incredible thing is that you are arrogant and win nothing ! So people dislike you,mock you and after all this hype even the great english fans aren't behind their own team!

    McLaren and co only have the results of what they have created
    S4P
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    Post by S4P Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:03 pm

    The abuse McLaren gets from the media (and the abuse Graham Taylor received) is disgusting. Whether or not you think they're the right choice (and I wasn't in favour of either at the time of their appointments), making them the national laughing stock is not acceptable imo. As much as it's McLaren's fault for picking the wrong players, it's not his fault we didn't have a single player who could dominate against Andorra last night.
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    Post by Arnaud loves Catherine Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:10 pm

    S4P2 wrote:The abuse McLaren gets from the media (and the abuse Graham Taylor received) is disgusting. Whether or not you think they're the right choice (and I wasn't in favour of either at the time of their appointments), making them the national laughing stock is not acceptable imo. As much as it's McLaren's fault for picking the wrong players, it's not his fault we didn't have a single player who could dominate against Andorra last night.
    But this is a massive problem YOU have created!

    You are supposed to have (according to YOUR ex national manager)the new "Pele" with Rooney.Then your medias say Lampard and Gerrard are the best midfielders in the Wc ect ect...

    McLaren should say the truth :"We are overated and don't deserve the reputation we have"and if he has some good results then believe me things will be better.He should say too "Lampard is a pure medias invention.He shouldn't play in our national team considering he has been poor with England so far.Same thing for Rooney and co"

    That's modern football.The medias are a big part of football and are responsable of the "pressure" on players.If the medias are respectful and cool so it will be better for everyone.

    I'm sure after the last WC some english fans couldn't beleive thier team lost vs an "inferior" Portugal...pff
    shazlx
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    Post by shazlx Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:15 pm

    Arnaud is beautiful wrote:
    S4P2 wrote:The abuse McLaren gets from the media (and the abuse Graham Taylor received) is disgusting. Whether or not you think they're the right choice (and I wasn't in favour of either at the time of their appointments), making them the national laughing stock is not acceptable imo. As much as it's McLaren's fault for picking the wrong players, it's not his fault we didn't have a single player who could dominate against Andorra last night.
    But this is a massive problem YOU have created!

    You are supposed to have (according to YOUR ex national manager)the new "Pele" with Rooney.Then your medias say Lampard and Gerrard are the best midfielders in the Wc ect ect...

    McLaren should say the truth :"We are overated and don't deserve the reputation we have"and if he has some good results then believe me things will be better.He should say too "Lampard is a pure medias invention.He shouldn't play in our national team considering he has been poor with England so far.Same thing for Rooney and co"

    That's modern football.The medias are a big part of football and are responsable of the "pressure" on players.If the medias are respectful and cool so it will be better for everyone.

    I'm sure after the last WC some english fans couldn't beleive thier team lost vs an "inferior" Portugal...pff

    This is why the fans are angry, McClaren listens to the media too much and does not have the intelligence/confidence to make up his own mind.
    The fans want Lampard, Rooney, A.Hole, etc to try something new but McClaren refuses to do this and prefers to listen to media hype.
    Arnaud loves Catherine
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    Post by Arnaud loves Catherine Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:23 pm

    shazlx wrote:
    Arnaud is beautiful wrote:
    S4P2 wrote:The abuse McLaren gets from the media (and the abuse Graham Taylor received) is disgusting. Whether or not you think they're the right choice (and I wasn't in favour of either at the time of their appointments), making them the national laughing stock is not acceptable imo. As much as it's McLaren's fault for picking the wrong players, it's not his fault we didn't have a single player who could dominate against Andorra last night.
    But this is a massive problem YOU have created!

    You are supposed to have (according to YOUR ex national manager)the new "Pele" with Rooney.Then your medias say Lampard and Gerrard are the best midfielders in the Wc ect ect...

    McLaren should say the truth :"We are overated and don't deserve the reputation we have"and if he has some good results then believe me things will be better.He should say too "Lampard is a pure medias invention.He shouldn't play in our national team considering he has been poor with England so far.Same thing for Rooney and co"

    That's modern football.The medias are a big part of football and are responsable of the "pressure" on players.If the medias are respectful and cool so it will be better for everyone.

    I'm sure after the last WC some english fans couldn't beleive thier team lost vs an "inferior" Portugal...pff

    This is why the fans are angry, McClaren listens to the media too much and does not have the intelligence/confidence to make up his own mind.
    The fans want Lampard, Rooney, A.Hole, etc to try something new but McClaren refuses to do this and prefers to listen to media hype.
    This is what "we" say since a long time but we are considered as "anti-english" for that.

    The hypocrisie from you is that you simply changed your mind after the WC.You were convinced to have a wonderful team during the last WC but some people like Puro,Otto,Ricardo and co were insulted for having a different views.

    I'm almost thinking your medias are creating this "supposed crisis" just for overating your players at a better moment (just before the euro).
    Isco Benny
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    Post by Isco Benny Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:32 pm

    Arnaud is beautiful wrote:
    borocooper wrote:As I watched the game from the bar of the Holiday Inn hotel outside of Bristol Airport - £109 a night and the stench of pig sh*t thrown in for free - I felt nothing but sorrow and sympathy. Not for the fans, not for the players, but for Steve McClaren.

    I have publicly stated there is something deeply annoying about him and he has a face you'd really like to slap, and I only said it half in jest. As a Boro fan I was always aware he wasn't capable of doing the job, but nonetheless, to berate him so viciously and so personally as fans did last night was verging on the psychotic.

    Let's just say this plainly. It's wrong.

    To direct so much abuse at one man, even a gingery freckled man, is simply disproportionate. He hasn't broken in your house, screwed your daughter and taken a sh*t on your floor. Just remember that he was invited to take the job, the real honour of managing his nation's football team, and is paid handsomely for doing so. If you want to have a go at anyone, it's the FA who should be at the dirty end of the stick.

    McClaren may well be out of his depth but he's not deliberately being awful. Actually, he's probably doing the best he can. Yes, it's not good enough, but he was asked to do this. He's doing what he can. By all means be critical; we all are, but the personal vilification of him as a man is, at least to me, psychologically disturbed.

    It's not as though Steve has personally debased a set of high-achieving players. He's not corrupted something that was pure and wonderful.

    Are the fans berating him the ones who bought the golden generation idea? The very idea sold to them by an anti-Sven press who wanted him out and an Englishman in? Think on and work that one out.

    At the very least, the visceral berating of McClaren is confused. Even if he isn't a great man-manager or motivator, he still has to manage a team of average talent. Don't forget, most journalists have to keep players sweet so they can get stories. It's much easier for the papers to slaughter the manager but ultimately, it's not the manager to blame, it is the players. He can't make them control the ball well or pass it accurately. No international manager can do that.

    Does anyone really think that booing the team after ten minutes will somehow give them confidence to play well? Clearly, they are playing with fear and inhibition just as they did at the World Cup. They play scared because they fear the very reaction we saw writ large on Wednesday. Our unreasonable glorification of them at club level and the even more unreasonable international expectations of their talents is one of the root causes of the last 40 years of mediocrity and failure. The pressure is unbearable for all concerned.

    Sod the money, the egos and the tactics, at the end of all of that they're just f***ing humans with actual emotions. I know in part their role as glamorous rich kids is to be our whipping boys as we grind out a daily existence, fair enough, but there's got to be some balance. Yes it's bloody annoying that they play poorly but they're not evil. To excoriate McClaren as though he's done something really bad, as though he's a kind of war criminal, is plain wrong. More than that, it's mentally ill. You could see the sickness in the eyes of the fans that were abusing him. That's not normal. Get some lithium or Prozac please.

    Anyone with an ounce of humanity would have felt sorry for him last night. You could see the ugly, vile side of humanity. You could see how lynchings happen. I felt at one point that if they could have, they may well have killed him.

    I don't blame him for not doing the press conference either. To sit in front of a group of people who in essence want to say "just admit you're crap Steve" or "you're a bit of a w*nker aren't you...why don't you just f*ck off?" is not something you or I would ever have tolerate or even be in a position to have to endure. Nobody should have to. Not even England's manager. It's inhuman and glories in the base side of human nature.

    His position may be untenable - though don't expect any other manager to achieve much more - but we should never forget he is just a bloke like you and me, and he deserves to be treated like a sentient creature, not a piece of meat to abuse for your own sadistic pleasure.

    The anti-anti-McClaren backlash starts here.

    John Nicholson
    Great thread...Don't forget people nowadays have short memories and all particularly biased.Mu fans hated C.Ronaldo after the WC.Now he is their idol again.

    It's all about results Boro mate.Look:If England is arrogant and overhyped(medias,fans and players,manager) and win a trophy so everyone in the world will say "that's normal,the best team won but we dislike England"

    If you are modest and win a trophy then people will say "Fair play to them.They played well and deserved to win the trophy."

    The incredible thing is that you are arrogant and win nothing ! So people dislike you,mock you and after all this hype even the great english fans aren't behind their own team!

    McLaren and co only have the results of what they have created

    Coming from a man who calls himself "beautiful" Laughing Laughing

    Come on then Arnaud, post a picture of yourself on the off topic thread so we can see if its hype or not <Ale>
    shazlx
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    Post by shazlx Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:43 pm

    Arnaud is beautiful wrote:
    shazlx wrote:
    Arnaud is beautiful wrote:
    S4P2 wrote:The abuse McLaren gets from the media (and the abuse Graham Taylor received) is disgusting. Whether or not you think they're the right choice (and I wasn't in favour of either at the time of their appointments), making them the national laughing stock is not acceptable imo. As much as it's McLaren's fault for picking the wrong players, it's not his fault we didn't have a single player who could dominate against Andorra last night.
    But this is a massive problem YOU have created!

    You are supposed to have (according to YOUR ex national manager)the new "Pele" with Rooney.Then your medias say Lampard and Gerrard are the best midfielders in the Wc ect ect...

    McLaren should say the truth :"We are overated and don't deserve the reputation we have"and if he has some good results then believe me things will be better.He should say too "Lampard is a pure medias invention.He shouldn't play in our national team considering he has been poor with England so far.Same thing for Rooney and co"

    That's modern football.The medias are a big part of football and are responsable of the "pressure" on players.If the medias are respectful and cool so it will be better for everyone.

    I'm sure after the last WC some english fans couldn't beleive thier team lost vs an "inferior" Portugal...pff

    This is why the fans are angry, McClaren listens to the media too much and does not have the intelligence/confidence to make up his own mind.
    The fans want Lampard, Rooney, A.Hole, etc to try something new but McClaren refuses to do this and prefers to listen to media hype.
    This is what "we" say since a long time but we are considered as "anti-english" for that.

    The hypocrisie from you is that you simply changed your mind after the WC.You were convinced to have a wonderful team during the last WC but some people like Puro,Otto,Ricardo and co were insulted for having a different views.

    I'm almost thinking your medias are creating this "supposed crisis" just for overating your players at a better moment (just before the euro).

    I never changed my mind and I don't think anyone on the else on the board did. Everyone said Lampard and Gerrard in CM was shit and we should either play Hargreaves and Gerard or Hargreaves and Carrick.
    Every on said that playing a unfit Rooney was shit and would prefer to see Defore/Bent etc. Lots of people said Terry was overrated and he would be shaky- and he was.

    Some people (not only English) said that England could win if changes were made and all players played to full potential - remember Engalnd went out of the WC only by penalties, the same a France (although France played better throughout the tournament).
    S4P
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    Post by S4P Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:15 pm

    Arnaud is beautiful wrote:
    You are supposed to have (according to YOUR ex national manager)the new "Pele" with Rooney.Then your medias say Lampard and Gerrard are the best midfielders in the Wc ect ect...

    McLaren should say the truth :"We are overated and don't deserve the reputation we have"and if he has some good results then believe me things will be better.He should say too "Lampard is a pure medias invention.He shouldn't play in our national team considering he has been poor with England so far.Same thing for Rooney and co"


    Agree with what you're saying Arnaud, but it's strange how Lampard regularly performs well for Chelsea in big matches (not so sure about Gerrard as I don't watch enough of Liverpool to comment, but clearly Benitez thinks he has 3 better CMs). When it comes to internationals (against the same players they face in the CL, Prem etc) they just don't perform. Imo it's down to bad man-management as much as anything.

    Look at us for example. Jose has managed to find a system whereby Makelele/Mikel, Essien, Lampard and Ballack can all play in one XI. Sure people complain that there may not be enough width and that it's a "boring" midfield, but it's a team which gets results because the management have got their tactics spot on. What we need is a Scolari, Hiddink, Mourinho, Benitez (maybe even Fat Sam) because McLaren (and for that matter Sven) are just too tactically inept.
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    Post by shazlx Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:32 pm

    S4P2 wrote:
    Arnaud is beautiful wrote:
    You are supposed to have (according to YOUR ex national manager)the new "Pele" with Rooney.Then your medias say Lampard and Gerrard are the best midfielders in the Wc ect ect...

    McLaren should say the truth :"We are overated and don't deserve the reputation we have"and if he has some good results then believe me things will be better.He should say too "Lampard is a pure medias invention.He shouldn't play in our national team considering he has been poor with England so far.Same thing for Rooney and co"


    Agree with what you're saying Arnaud, but it's strange how Lampard regularly performs well for Chelsea in big matches (not so sure about Gerrard as I don't watch enough of Liverpool to comment, but clearly Benitez thinks he has 3 better CMs). When it comes to internationals (against the same players they face in the CL, Prem etc) they just don't perform. Imo it's down to bad man-management as much as anything.

    Look at us for example. Jose has managed to find a system whereby Makelele/Mikel, Essien, Lampard and Ballack can all play in one XI. Sure people complain that there may not be enough width and that it's a "boring" midfield, but it's a team which gets results because the management have got their tactics spot on. What we need is a Scolari, Hiddink, Mourinho, Benitez (maybe even Fat Sam) because McLaren (and for that matter Sven) are just too tactically inept.

    Are you sure, just because he scored good goals against Barca and Munich does not mean he played well against them. I didn't watch the Munich game so I won't comment. But he was invisible against Barca for most of the match other than a few good touches. I also remember him creating some good counter attacks against Barca in he game where Ronaldinho scored 'that' goal. Other than that, in all other big matches ( and many matches against smaller opposition) he has been useless as a CM. I all the Arsenal matches, all he has ever done is take set pieces. At no other point can I remember him being or creating anything dangerous against us. This also applies to the United matches and the Liverpool matches.

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