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Mexicanbecks
Liverpool 0 - 1 Man U
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19 posters

    MOURINHO = JOHNSON ?

    Puro
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    Post by Puro Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:15 am

    For those who may not be aware of the NFL's Dallas Cowboys and their great coach Jimmy Johnson, allow me to share with you some quick info.

    Back in the early 90's the Dallas Cowboys were an also ran team. They were successful in the past, but had been struggling during throughout the 80's all the way into the 90's. Then someone by the name of Jerry Jones bought the team, and he hired a great young coach named Jimmy Johnson.

    Johnson built the team from scratch. He had 100% control in player selection/signing, and he soon won the Super Bowl, and won it again back to back just like Mourinho winning the EPL two straight seasons. Then Jones (the owner) wanted to be more "involved" in the transfers of players and day to day team operations. That's when all hell broke loose in the Dallas Cowboys organization. Johnson was fired soon after.

    The Dallas Cowboys were able to win one more Super Bowl with Johnson's players, and that was that. His players started leaving to other teams. Since then, the Dallas Cowboys haven't come close to winning the Conference Championship, let alone the Super Bowl.

    I see lots of similarities between Mourinho and Johnson, and between Abramovich and Jones. In the Dallas Cowboys case, it's no secret that the owner Jones destroyed his own team's success by wanting to be more involved in player selection.

    Will Chelsea and Abramovich suffer the same fate? <Ale>
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    Post by Lard Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:25 am

    I hope so Biggrin

    When you have the money Abram does i doubt they will fall of the map completly. If this new guy doesn't work, im sure he will bring in a big name and give him the money to create his own team. But i think we could well see Chelsea having 3-4 managers in the next two seasons trying to find THAT right man <Ale>
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    Post by fcb Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:26 am

    So that means Chelsea will win the title again this year...
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    Post by Puro Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:26 am

    While the Mourinho topic's still fresh... Biggrin

    Do you agree with me, that the Special One has been the most succesful manager in England considering seasons in charge.

    1) Mourinho
    2) Paisley
    3) Ferguson
    4) Graham
    5) Wenger
    6) Nicholson
    7) Shankly
    Puro
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    Post by Puro Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:31 am

    L r d wrote:I hope so Biggrin

    When you have the money Abram does i doubt they will fall of the map completly. If this new guy doesn't work, im sure he will bring in a big name and give him the money to create his own team. But i think we could well see Chelsea having 3-4 managers in the next two seasons trying to find THAT right man <Ale>

    If I remember correctly, Dallas didn't win the season Johnson was fired. Jones then hired another great coach named Barry Switzer and he won with Johnson's players the next season. However, the "Dynasty" was over, that was that. Switzer couldn't win another one. Jones hired more and more coaches, but the empire Johnson had built was destroyed.

    Abramovich reminds me of Jerry Jones A LOT!. <Ale>
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    Post by Puro Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:35 am

    kas wrote:So that means Chelsea will win the title again this year...

    If we take the Dallas Cowboys as model, Chelsea may win the EPL next season, and nothing again for many years. The Cowboys are STILL trying to win one again, and it's season number 13 and counting since their last triumph. <Ale>
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    Post by fcb Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:36 am

    I think they'll go deep in the playoffs this year, because this random quarterback they found, Tony Romo, seems to be quite good. They just have to hang on to Owens and hope he stays sane for long enough and maybe in a season or two they'll reach the Superbowl again.
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    Post by Lard Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:40 am

    Puro wrote:While the Mourinho topic's still fresh... Biggrin

    Do you agree with me, that the Special One has been the most succesful manager in England considering seasons in charge.

    1) Mourinho
    2) Paisley
    3) Ferguson
    4) Graham
    5) Wenger
    6) Nicholson
    7) Shankly

    Not a chance, to be number one you cannot just have three seasons. The one year that a team truely was able to challenge Chelsea he didn't win the title, and this season so far it wasnt exactly going to plan.
    It's not his fault he had an owner who insisted on getting involved, or hired people that the club did not need which led to him eventually leaving, but still he cannot be above these names no chance <Ale> Biggrin
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    Post by fcb Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:45 am

    But the reason no team was able to "truly" challenge Chelsea those first 2 years was because he was too good for the other managers. They took 2 seasons to catch up and beat Mourinho.
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    Post by Lard Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:50 am

    kas wrote:But the reason no team was able to "truly" challenge Chelsea those first 2 years was because he was too good for the other managers. They took 2 seasons to catch up and beat Mourinho.

    Liverpool had a poor team at this time, they won the cl buy they had a poor team. Arsenal were on the decline/rebuilding whatever. And Man Utd also were in the process of rebuilding. Of course he done great to win back to back titles but best manager ever in england because of this no way.
    For example his first game was against man utd, look at our team then
    Howard, Silvestre, Gary Neville, Keane, Fortune, Miller, O'Shea, Djemba-Djemba, Giggs, Scholes, Smith. Subs: Ricardo, Phil Neville, Bellion, Richardson, Forlan. affraid If he doesn't beat this team to a title then i am shocked.
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    Post by Parks lives Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:06 am

    Puro wrote:While the Mourinho topic's still fresh... Biggrin

    Do you agree with me, that the Special One has been the most succesful manager in England considering seasons in charge.

    1) Mourinho
    2) Paisley
    3) Ferguson
    4) Graham
    5) Wenger
    6) Nicholson
    7) Shankly

    Haha, fucking hell.
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    Post by Parks lives Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:07 am

    kas wrote:But the reason no team was able to "truly" challenge Chelsea those first 2 years was because he was too good for the other managers. They took 2 seasons to catch up and beat Mourinho.

    So money had nothing to do with it?

    Like completely outbidding us when Essien became available.
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    Post by fcb Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:38 am

    Most definitely did. But I don't think it can be denied that the winning mentality Mourinho puts in his teams. ie. the way in which Chelsea converted so many defeats into draws and draws into wins, changed what was needed to win the Premiership. Ferguson and Benitez have said this themselves by stressing the importance for good squads, having ever bigger squads, and I'm not sure about this last one, but I think Ferguson mentioned at some point that his earlier theory of a maximum of 6 defeats in a season doesn't apply anymore either.
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    Post by Parks lives Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:47 am

    That was after Arsenal's unbeaten season he said that.

    I've always said the really good thing about Chelsea is the rest of the English teams had to strengthen there squads, which will help them in Europe.

    Still those first two seasons Chelsea were spending mad. It was always going to be hard to match up squad wise. Management didn't come into it as heavily as you suggested.

    The first season they slowed down in spending (we hardly spent anything the summer of 2006) we were able to beat them to the title.
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    Post by Sgoater1 Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:30 am

    Puro wrote:While the Mourinho topic's still fresh... Biggrin

    Do you agree with me, that the Special One has been the most succesful manager in England considering seasons in charge.

    1) Mourinho
    2) Paisley
    3) Ferguson
    4) Graham
    5) Wenger
    6) Nicholson
    7) Shankly

    NOT A CHANCE !
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    Post by lrdsucksgoats Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:31 am

    Puro wrote:While the Mourinho topic's still fresh... Biggrin

    Do you agree with me, that the Special One has been the most succesful manager in England considering seasons in charge.

    1) Mourinho
    2) Paisley
    3) Ferguson
    4) Graham
    5) Wenger
    6) Nicholson
    7) Shankly

    Wenger above Shankley?


    Your racist little son of a biscuit...
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    Post by Sgoater1 Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:44 am

    Where's Sven ?
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    Post by debaser Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:59 am

    Puro wrote:While the Mourinho topic's still fresh... Biggrin

    Do you agree with me, that the Special One has been the most succesful manager in England considering seasons in charge.

    1) Mourinho
    2) Paisley
    3) Ferguson
    4) Graham
    5) Wenger
    6) Nicholson
    7) Shankly
    let alone mourinho being top, is that george graham in 4th place? Yikes
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    Post by The Vermonster Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:10 am

    Parks lives wrote:
    kas wrote:But the reason no team was able to "truly" challenge Chelsea those first 2 years was because he was too good for the other managers. They took 2 seasons to catch up and beat Mourinho.

    So money had nothing to do with it?

    Like completely outbidding us when Essien became available.

    Or buying SWP when he had no obvious need for him, so that we don't get him.
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    Post by Football Genius Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:26 am

    Puro wrote:While the Mourinho topic's still fresh... Biggrin

    Do you agree with me, that the Special One has been the most succesful manager in England considering seasons in charge.

    1) Mourinho
    2) Paisley
    3) Ferguson
    4) Graham
    5) Wenger
    6) Nicholson
    7) Shankly

    I think we can all agree, this is THE worst list EVER.
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    Post by Isco Benny Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:02 pm

    Where's Clough for example? He took 2 unfashionable, moderate teams in Forest and Derby and made them champions.

    He won 2 European Cups with one of them. All at a time when Liverpool were the strongest team in Europe.

    I agree. A $h!t Puro ABE list
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    Post by Freddie Or Not Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:39 pm

    Anybody else read this Simon Barnes article about Mourinho.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/simon_barnes/article2500633.ece

    As usual one of the very few sports writers with anything remotely interesting to say.
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    Post by Bashmachkin Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:02 pm

    Simon Barnes always produces rubbish journalese, where he writes an article with an overriding theory or vague philosophy which doesnt accord to any of the particulars about the subject on which he is writing. He never offers any insight into anything. This article simply argues that Mourinho was power hungry, wanted to control everything, but ultimately didnt have the power because Abramovich and the players hold it in different respects. Its overly simplified and wrong in lots of respects.

    His comments about Shevchenko and Ballack are one sided and ignore the undeniable fact that neither has played particularly well since arriving at Chelsea. The suggestion that Mourinho is arrogant and greedy and conceited and therefore wants all the attention misses the aspect to which all this is used to take pressure off his players, and it ignores the team spirit Mourinho generates, the genuine friendship he has with so many of his players, the mutual respect, and the way in times of celebration, for instance, he lauds his players and joins in as one of them. And the whole bit about the players being the stars, about Abramovich having all the real power, ignores again the relationship Mourinho did have with much of his squad as well as what has gone on already since he left. The fact that there are already suggestions about unhappy players, about people possibly wanting to leave, and that Chelseas fans seem deeply unhappy with Mourinhos departure - all this suggests Mourinho did have significant power at the club, was a positive and stabilising presence.
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    Post by Tweesus Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:26 pm

    Freddie Or Not wrote:Anybody else read this Simon Barnes article about Mourinho.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/simon_barnes/article2500633.ece

    As usual one of the very few sports writers with anything remotely interesting to say.

    Of course. I have Simon Barnes' homepage on The Times website bookmarked Wink
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    Post by Tweesus Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:31 pm

    Actually its worth pasting in here for the lazy posters Wink

    Simon Barnes is Britain's best football journalist. You're so SO wrong bash Ale

    "I think he [Arsène Wenger] is one of these people who is a voyeur. He likes to watch other people. There are some guys who, when they are at home, have a big telescope to see what happens in other families. He speaks, speaks, speaks about Chelsea"

    Mourinho October 2005

    Come with me to any lower-division match. You’ll probably get a half-decent football game. You’re a journalist, you write down significant information in your notebook. The home team make lots of chances but convert only one, then get caught on the break. The match ends, but your intrepid information-gathering does not.

    You go to a room, generally bare and unloved, and wait. Eventually – always long enough to keep you in your place – the managers come in, one by one. “How did it go, Ron?” “Well, we made lots of chances. But in this league, you get punished if you don’t take them and that’s what happened today.”

    And you and your half-dozen colleagues write all this down as if the words were coming from a burning bush. “Were the substitutions tactical, Ron?” “Fresh legs up front.”

    Then one of the long, ugly pauses that characterise encounters of this kind, before someone asks: “Any knocks, Ron?”

    The experience of watching a football match is not valid until the manager has spoken. Many, if not most newspapers will be deeply unhappy about a match report unless there is a “quote” from the manager. “We’ve got to work hard in training all week. There are no easy solutions in football.” And we write this all down as if it were Analects of Confucius. Is it not surprising that managers get their heads turned?

    José Mourinho represents the ultimate triumph of this: The Cult of the Manager. He has done as much as is humanly possible to render the action on the pitch irrelevant. With Chelsea, the story was always the manager. Players, what do they matter? Like Alfred Hitchcock’s actors, they are cattle.

    Mourinho was football’s star. His entire career was a sweet revenge on the gods that made him unable to play the game. But he was never interested in football for itself; rather, it was football as a vector for power that enthralled him. That was his strength and ultimately his downfall.

    Because the truth of the matter is that, ultimately, football is a game about spontaneity; about fragments of individual brilliance allied to a corporate resolve. If you reduce football to a series of set-plays, you reduce the capacity for surprise and, therefore, the potential for winning.

    But Mourinho hated spontaneity. He sought control. He wanted people who only ever crossed on the pedestrian crossing, not realising, or rather, not understanding that a city without jaywalkers is a city without artists.

    He didn’t want artists. He didn’t trust them. He liked ordinary talents developed to extraordinary lengths: Terry, Lampard, Makelele, Drogba. These were people he could control, these were players who would not get between the manager and his public.

    One club, one star. Le club, c’est moi. Football’s traditional belief is that the team are an extension of the manager’s nature. Why, you may ask, were Chelsea not flamboyant, feisty, cocky, maverick, paradoxical, intermittently brilliant? Because Mourinho is primarily interested in power. The maverick side of his nature is merely the way he set about claiming power, for it is power, not perversity, that defines him.

    As a result, the team were in subjection to the manager. This wasn’t a team who cut loose, ever; this wasn’t a team you watched for the sake of this player or that player. You wouldn’t catch Mourinho signing Cristiano Ronaldo or Cesc Fàbregas, talents that need a certain amount of slack in the rope.

    Rather, Mourinho put his faith in method and control. Chelsea were effective enough but never reached beyond the brilliantly ordinary. The truly exceptional was always beyond their reach, perhaps beyond Mourinho’s understanding.

    How else to explain his failures with Andriy Shevchenko and Michael Ballack? To fail with one might be regarded as a misfortune; to fail with two looks like a personality disorder. A manager who takes on two of the finest players in Europe and gets scarcely anything from either – indeed, seems to delight in their misfortunes – must ask questions not about the players but about himself.

    These two players were stars and, as such, they didn’t fit into Mourinho’s plans. They were a threat to him. It was important for him that they failed, and they did. This is heresy: it should be the belief of every coach that anyone of sufficient talent can be accommodated.

    Mourinho preferred other methods. They work, too. They worked for Mourinho at FC Porto, where he won the European Cup, and they worked well enough in England to bring two league titles, even if a second European Cup was always beyond him with Chelsea.

    But these methods have their drawbacks. The first is that if you rule the exceptional out of your game, you are going to have problems when you encounter the exceptional among your opponents. You have eliminated the element of individual inspiration. In fact, the only place in which individual inspiration was allowed to flourish with Chelsea was with the goalkeeper. Petr Cech’s head injury was the single reason Chelsea failed to win the league title last season.

    The other drawback is that your team are going to be less fun. Less fun to watch, less fun to play for. And you can argue all you like that a win is a win and that it doesn’t matter whether you went the pretty way or the ugly way, the fact is that Mourinho found himself in trouble at Chelsea because of a disagreement on the subject of aesthetics. It is true, yet it is not true, that Roman Abramovich, the Chelsea owner, parted company with Mourinho because he was unable and unwilling to deliver football like Barcelona. That was the proximate cause, of course, an ever-growing dissatisfaction with the fact that Chelsea’s highest ambition was to achieve a sustained and brilliant mediocrity.

    But the ultimate cause was different. If it hadn’t been aesthetics, it would have been something else. Mourinho established a one-star club, with one man attracting all the attention, making all the stories, setting the agenda, one man as the centre of power, one man as the moving spirit, one man eclipsing all others. It really should have occurred to him that a man who had spent 500 million quid to establish the club as a publicity vehicle for himself may get a little bit irritated by that.

    Because the truth is that Mourinho’s power was only ever an illusion. He drew attention to himself, he had the nation’s football press delighting in every pose, every absurdity, every contradiction, but he was never truly in charge of Chelsea. Such power as he had was loaned, not achieved or given.

    Mourinho reminds me of the critic in Anthony Powell, whose goal “was to establish finally that the Critic, not the Author, was paramount”. The cult of the manager is designed to promote the idea that the manager, not the player, is paramount and Mourinho’s is the ultimate expression of this cult. And that’s why Mourinho had to go – because the cult is based on a false premise. In the end, the players are the stars.

    Jobs for the boy

    Where will José Mourinho turn after leaving Chelsea? Bill Edgar examines some of the possibilities, with William Hill supplying the odds on his next job.

    Portugal Mourinho has often said that he would like to coach his country’s national team, although he may prefer to seek further glory at club level after departing from Chelsea ahead of schedule. Odds 1-2

    Tottenham Hotspur A club with such a long history of underachievement would surely welcome Mourinho with open arms, but would he be willing to join a club where a director of football has a prominent role? Odds 6-1

    Barcelona A move to the Nou Camp would be a surprise, even though Mourinho worked there as Bobby Robson’s translator. The Portuguese is disliked for his inflammatory comments before and after Chelsea’s Champions League meetings with the Spanish club, notably in 2005, when he accused Anders Frisk, the referee, of bias towards Barcelona because of an alleged half-time discussion with Frank Rijkaard, their coach. Odds 8-1

    Real Madrid A job at the Bernabéu also seems unlikely given that Real recently did exactly what Chelsea have done – parted company with a successful manager because his style was boring. Fabio Capello’s league title last season could not save his job. Odds 10-1

    England Mourinho has the ego and single-mindedness to take on “the impossible job” and the post will probably become available this autumn if England fail to reach the European Championship finals. Odds 10-1

    FC Porto Having won every trophy on offer to the club, he would probably decline the chance to coach there again, even if he would have the freedom to operate as a dictator. Odds 12-1

    Inter Milan Mourinho reportedly spoke to the Italian club this year, but Roberto Mancini should be secure as coach after Inter’s runaway title success last season. Odds 20-1

    Arsenal Mourinho may be tempted to seek revenge on Chelsea by taking over one of their main rivals, but the prospects of Arsène Wenger vacating the manager’s chair seem slim. Odds 20-
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    Post by Puro Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:21 pm

    Ayman Zawahiri wrote:
    Puro wrote:While the Mourinho topic's still fresh... Biggrin

    Do you agree with me, that the Special One has been the most succesful manager in England considering seasons in charge.

    1) Mourinho
    2) Paisley
    3) Ferguson
    4) Graham
    5) Wenger
    6) Nicholson
    7) Shankly

    Wenger above Shankley?


    Your racist little son of a biscuit...

    Oh f@ck you. The list is accurate going by cups won whether you or any other thick shite likes it or not.

    I already "gouged your eyes and skull fucked you" long ago. Then you calmed down a bit. Don't make me f@ck you again. Biggrin <Ale>
    Liverpool 0 - 1 Man U
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    Post by Liverpool 0 - 1 Man U Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:44 pm

    When was that? scratch
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    Post by Football Genius Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:48 pm

    Puro wrote:
    Ayman Zawahiri wrote:
    Puro wrote:While the Mourinho topic's still fresh... Biggrin

    Do you agree with me, that the Special One has been the most succesful manager in England considering seasons in charge.

    1) Mourinho
    2) Paisley
    3) Ferguson
    4) Graham
    5) Wenger
    6) Nicholson
    7) Shankly

    Wenger above Shankley?


    Your racist little son of a biscuit...

    Oh f@ck you. The list is accurate going by cups won whether you or any other thick shite likes it or not.

    I already "gouged your eyes and skull fucked you" long ago. Then you calmed down a bit. Don't make me f@ck you again. Biggrin <Ale>

    You sure about that Puro.....
    Isco Benny
    Isco Benny


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    Post by Isco Benny Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:52 pm

    @Puro, your list is $h!t. Accept it mate. Graham above Shankly? No Clough? Fair enough if you're doing it solely on Cups won over years in the Premiership, however that on its own doesnt tell half the story.

    Mourinho spent more money on players than any of those managers combined. He's been a class manager, but no 1? No way.
    Puro
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    Post by Puro Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:54 pm

    Handsome Prince Of Saxony wrote:@Puro, your list is $h!t. Accept it mate. Graham above Shankly? No Clough? Fair enough if you're doing it solely on Cups won over years in the Premiership, however that on its own doesnt tell half the story.

    Mourinho spent more money on players than any of those managers combined. He's been a class manager, but no 1? No way.

    We're in agreement 100% there. <Ale>

    I have to go buddy, have a good weekend. We'll discuss some more football later. Biggrin <Ale>

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