La Roja

This is a stereotype. Everyone goes on about Gerard dragging Liverpool past Olympiakos in the CL. Spain rarely produce those type of box to box midfielders that win games on their own but the creative types in the mould of Xavi, Alonso, De La Pena.

Whenever Barca play it's always about Ronaldonho, Messi, Henry, Eto'o. No credit is given whatsoever to Xavi's ability to open defences and retain the ball. Even in the CL final against Arsenal no one in the British press mentioned how Iniesta played out of his skin when he came on as a DM, instead all the praise was for Larrson.

give up thats just complete bullsh¡t.


are Barca now not a top team? Xavi is an integral part of the Barca side, Iniesta is fast becoming so. Xavi has had huge plaudits from the so called big names in the side who recognise exactly what he brings to the side, just cos he ain't in adverts for nike doing fancy tricks doesn't mean he isn't a class act.

Vicente was hugely responsible for winning leagues with valencia.

joaquin got betis into the ECL no mean feat.

Again how many are match winners, how may of them have made a difference in a big game for their club?!

You talk about Iniesta working his socks off in the final and Xavi controlling the game, but if they did the same for Spain who's going to actually win the game, the way Ronaldinho has in the past and Messi does now for Barca or Zidane, Ronaldo used to for Real and RVN did last season.

Only Raul has been the main player for a top club over the years and he has been rubbish in every international tournament he has played for Spain.

It has nothing to do with adverts Frank, but ability, character and mental toughness. If other players have always stepped up and made the difference in your team, you will never learn to do it.

You probably dont agree with me, but in the summer when Spain are struggling to beat an average side in the group stage and Cesc, Iniesta and Xavi are passing the ball around not getting anywhere and Torres and Villa go missing, you might begin to understand where I am coming from.

Iniesta did actually win a couple of matches recently for Spain when he came on, or was the best player and his pass/goal made the difference.

One of those matches was the friendly against England, iirc.

Want any more examples?

kas wrote:Iniesta did actually win a couple of matches recently for Spain when he came on, or was the best player and his pass/goal made the difference.

One of those matches was the friendly against England, iirc.

Want any more examples?

A friendly against England isnt a big or important match.

I would like examples of a Spanish player being the main player at a top club and the main reason why their club won a major trophy.

- The "Quinta del Buitre" in the 80s
- The 2002 CL final. Raul (The one where Zidane scored 'that' goal).
- The 2000 final against Valencia (Morientes, Raul).

@Rez: How do you define "main reason" though?

We've already pointed out just how crucial Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol are to Barcelona, Sergio Ramos and Casillas to Madrid. I can go on, Palop to Sevilla's UEFA Cups (esp. the 2nd one).

I can easily flip it around and say show me what English players have been the main reason for their team's successes "in recent years"? You will point out Terry, Ferdinand, maybe Rooney, etc. Gerrard of Liverpool's 2005 CL win is probably the only player that satisfies your original argument.

Apart from that, it's the same thing, isn't it - Ronaldo, Henry, Drogba, etc.

Doesn't Villa meet his description of the kind of player he is talking about?

kas wrote:@Rez: How do you define "main reason" though?

We've already pointed out just how crucial Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol are to Barcelona, Sergio Ramos and Casillas to Madrid. I can go on, Palop to Sevilla's UEFA Cups (esp. the 2nd one).

I can easily flip it around and say show me what English players have been the main reason for their team's successes "in recent years"? You will point out Terry, Ferdinand, maybe Rooney, etc. Gerrard of Liverpool's 2005 CL win is probably the only player that satisfies your original argument.

Apart from that, it's the same thing, isn't it - Ronaldo, Henry, Drogba, etc.

The main reason as in being the teams best player, a player so influential that the team wouldnt have won it without them i.e. Kaka and Ronaldo last season, Ronaldinho the season before. For example Barcelona won the double without Xavi, but would never have won it without Ronaldinho.

The players you mentioned are all important to the team, but (apart from the legendary Casillas) they never directly influence a game the way the foreign players do/did.

I am not deriding Spain purely on the wind up, just to make England look better. I used to wonder why Spain with so many players who do well in the CL often struggle to get out of the group stages or get to the latter stages of International tournaments. I thought about it a lot after the last world cup and came to the conclusion that it was because they didnt have enough (any) players in thier team that were the main players for thier clubs. So dont harangue me as I am just putting accross my view to why I feel Spain will/have struggle.

Incidentally I do think England has a similar problem and I dont feel we will win anything for a while. Gerrard is the only English player who carried a top team to a trophy, but like Raul he isnt an exceptional player (like Zidane and L Ronaldo) so often struggled in International tournaments. Rooney threatened to win the European championships single handily, but he got injured so we will never know if he would have.
Scholes is a good English example in that he is a trully exceptional player and at united he was essential to the way the team played, but in the big games he wasnt the most influential player, it was Cantona, Keane, Giggs and Beckham. So when he played for England, despite having the abilty he could never carry or really influence the team to victory.

@JDLO

As I said earlier Raul was the only player to lead his club team (to victory), but like Gerrard he was awful in every international tournament that he played in. Also he wasnt one of the players Frank originally mentioned, neither is he likely to be going to Euro 2008.

So do you two think there is any truth in what I have said or do you think I am completely wide of the mark?!

If you dont, what do you believe is the main reason behind Spain struggling, despite having a team full of CL winners and La liga winners?

I take our point that spain doesn't have any true cracks, but how many countries have a Dinho,Messi or a kaka.

@Rez: Ok, your point does make sense, but Messiah has raised a good response to it.


I think everyone more or less agrees that Spain's lack of success is down to the lack of real teamwork...calling it RM vs. Barça is oversimplified, esp. in terms of recent squads, but the fact remains that regional allegiances to Catalunya, the Basque region, etc. are still very strong, and although the players may physically always give 100% on the field, mentally that last bit of effort just isn't there (and that's something that every country is experiencing now with the growing club v. country rivalry).

Also, when large chunks of fans don't give a f@ck about the national team, it has a big impact on how the players feel and play.

i agree with Kas that Spain's problems are mainly mental ones, because as for that their squad strength ones i think they are a good as any in Europe

Finland-Spain match starts now.

Great news

No Cesc in the starting line up

Juego de la Okkas wrote:Finland-Spain match starts now.

Waste of time this match.

0-0 Dull with very few chances.

Glad to see Xavi didn't play and Iniesta/Puyol only got 45 mins. Like Jaime said, stupid friendly.

kas wrote:Like Jaime said, stupid friendly.

not met one spaniard who thought this match was worthwhile

Have you guys seen this?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MqA1pQuGGVI

Aragones goes mental as soon as someone mentions Raul

And was that a Raul mask? It was too dark, I couldn't tell.

Spain Squad for the crucial qualifiers against Sweden and Norn Iron

Casillas, Sergio Ramos, Pablo Ibáñez, Pernía, Marchena, Albiol, Albelda, Villa, Joaquín, Silva, Tamudo, Riera, Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta, Cesc, Reina, Capdevila, Güiza y Senna.

Good choices by Aragones. There's no spare right-back in the squad so I assume Puyol will play should Ramos get injured. I'm glad to see Guiza's been given a chance, now I'm waiting for Aduriz.

Good to see Senna make it too, he's been fantastic this season whereas Albelda has been Cr@p.

Maybe a 4-1-3-2 with Senna as the DM, and Xavi-Iniesta-Cesc as the midfield. Villa and Tamudo the strikers. No width in that team, but it's the one with all the on-form players (well, technically it would then have to be Guiza over Villa).

Juego de la Okkas wrote:Pablo Ibáñez.

does the numpty actually go to matches with his eyes open, he's been shite ffs

Not many other CBs to bring in though...Jarque should perhaps get a chance, but otherwise Marchena has been equally bad this season.

tbh albiol has been poor for me too.

Yes, and Marchena and Silva too.

Thoughts on the new shirt? I like the new badge. The shirt is fine but I don't like the darker shade of blue for the shorts.

Is it me or does Iniesta look like a mini Viduka?

Is it just me or does the dude behind Iniesta look more Chinese than Spanish?

Is it me or is fabregas a Pr!ck?

L r d wrote:Is it me or is fabregas a Pr!ck?

No, you're definitely the Pr!ck.