La Roja

it wasn't a sarcastic laugh thumbs up i wlll continue to tell the world torres is over rated and time will prove me right

Gambit(Ace) wrote:

btw, this 28 man passing move for Ramos's goal. Was it really as good as it sounds? Only got to see the flick from Tamudo

The last few passes flowed together very well, and the final assist and finish were excellent, but overall it was nothing as special as Marca are making it out to be.

Phil Ball with an absolutely superb article (except for the part where he says Spain can win Euro2008)

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=472599&root=euro2008&cc=5901&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos3

kas we've seen nothing to suggest they can win it i agree, BUT if they can finding a TEAM out of the superb individuals in the squad they still have a chance, most of the big guns are stuttering in qualification

Compare the squad back in 2002 to now. I think since then the quality of players in the squad has gone into decline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_FIFA_World_Cup_squads#Spain

1 GK Iker Casillas 1981-05-20 13 Real Madrid
2 DF Curro Torres 1976-12-27 4 Valencia
3 DF Juanfran 1976-07-15 7 Celta Vigo
4 MF Iván Helguera 1975-03-18 22 Real Madrid
5 DF Carles Puyol 1978-04-13 8 Barcelona
6 DF Fernando Hierro (c) 1968-03-23 85 Real Madrid
7 FW Raúl 1977-06-27 51 Real Madrid
8 MF Rubén Baraja 1975-07-11 9 Valencia
9 FW Fernando Morientes 1976-04-05 19 Real Madrid
10 FW Diego Tristán 1976-01-05 7 Deportivo La Coruña
11 FW Javier de Pedro 1973-08-04 5 Real Sociedad
12 FW Albert Luque 1978-03-11 0 Mallorca
13 GK Ricardo 1971-12-30 1 Real Valladolid
14 MF David Albelda 1977-09-01 2 Valencia
15 DF Enrique Romero 1971-06-23 3 Deportivo La Coruña
16 MF Gaizka Mendieta 1974-03-27 32 Lazio
17 MF Juan Carlos Valerón 1975-06-17 20 Deportivo La Coruña
18 MF Sergio 1976-11-10 5 Deportivo La Coruña
19 MF Xavi 1980-01-25 3 Barcelona
20 DF Miguel Ángel Nadal 1966-07-28 59 Mallorca
21 MF Luis Enrique 1970-05-08 57 Barcelona
22 MF Joaquín 1981-07-21 3 Real Betis
23 GK Pedro Contreras 1972-01-07 0 Málaga

are those in bold really better than what they have now?

and tristan, luque were both pretty inconsisant too

- De Pedro was class - one of the best crossers of the ball that I've seen. He's lost his way ever since he went to Blackburn and is now playing in Tercera.
- Sergio was a good player back then, but has been $h!t the past couple of years.
- Contreras/Ricardo only went because of the aftershave incident with Canizares.
- Why does everyone dislike Helguera so much? Is he that poor compared to Marchena.
- Juanfran was a good player as well, then he decided to go on his tour of Europe and is past it.
- Romero: We still have a problem at left-back. He probably went on the back of Depor's good CL performances.

helguera is a poor mans hiero end of

what would the 23 look like today, in general i bet the forwards are prob no worse, the midfield imho is better, and the central defence overall prob slightly worse but the fullbacks are prob even stevens although s ramos is better than what they did have its certainly no gone backwards overall and they should have enough to be doing a whole lot better than they are. they need to forge a team mentality rather than a (us) RM v (and) Barca (them) mentality

The only player from that squad who would definitely make the current team is Hierro.

I think the quality of the current team is better, and once Vicente comes back it will all click.

What's the team now when everyone is fit then?

Calidad wrote:The only player from that squad who would definitely make the current team is Hierro.

I think the quality of the current team is better, and once Vicente comes back it will all click.

If.

Just can't rely on him anymore, and if he's fit for Euro 2008 Aragones will have one of those decisions to make - take him knowing what he can bring to the team, or keep faith with those who have got them to qualify.

Tweedle wrote:What's the team now when everyone is fit then?

Casillas, Ramos, Puyol, Albelda, Xavi, Villa, Torres are all guaranteed starters.

The other CB will be either Albiol or Marchena (should be the former).

The LB will most probably be Capdevila.

The rest of the midfield spots are always changing depending on formation/injuries...so pick 2 out of Iniesta, Cesc, Xabi Alonso, Joaquin, Silva, and Vicente. Hopefully Iniesta will become a fixture and it'll be 1 more out of the rest.

I'd like to see Raul Garcia given a chance at DM though...Albelda is in poor form. Marcos Senna should definitely be included in the 23 instead of Baraja.

Calidad wrote:The only player from that squad who would definitely make the current team is Hierro.

I think the quality of the current team is better, and once Vicente comes back it will all click.

Not even De Pedro? (Silva should be played as a number 10).

Tweedle wrote:What's the team now when everyone is fit then?

Who knows? I don't. Maybe some of the other posters might. Casillas, Ramos & Villa are probably the only nailed on starters. Puyol too perhaps, but he's been injured.

I'm no fan of Aragones, but I understand the difficulty in picking a midifield when you have the likes of Cesc, Joaquin, Silva, Vicente, Albelda, Iniesta, Xavi, Alonso.

That's not even including newcomers like R Garcia (who really should be a full international) Zapater, Riera etc. Sunny too shouldn't be too far away either, because he plays like no other in the national side, and would therefore add something different.

Raul Garcia is going to be a top class player. He's probably my favourite player from la liga at the moment. Will have a real struggle getting into the Spain squad until Albelda retires though

if he's fit you simply have to take him there is no room for sentiment, he will add quality to the squad

Oubina (when he's fit) should be able to walk in as the defensive midfielder. It's af@cking travesty that he has been given an opportunity because he's from an unfashionable club, the same applies to Zapater.

Juego de la Okkas wrote:Oubina (when he's fit) should be able to walk in as the defensive midfielder. It's af@cking travesty that he has been given an opportunity because he's from an unfashionable club, the same applies to Zapater.

Can you believe that he went on loan to Brum?! Couldn't believe it when they sealed that deal, then he gets ruled out for 6 months!

Calidad wrote:

I'm no fan of Aragones, but I understand the difficulty in picking a midifield when you have the likes of Cesc, Joaquin, Silva, Vicente, Albelda, Iniesta, Xavi, Alonso.

That's not even including newcomers like R Garcia (who really should be a full international) Zapater, Riera etc. Sunny too shouldn't be too far away either, because he plays like no other in the national side, and would therefore add something different.

the problem he has is if one doesn't work out in ONE match its easy to feel like you have to change it cos he has so much quality in reserve. Strikers and defence is easier, but the midfield is a nightmare

Tweedle wrote:

Juego de la Okkas wrote:Oubina (when he's fit) should be able to walk in as the defensive midfielder. It's af@cking travesty that he has been given an opportunity because he's from an unfashionable club, the same applies to Zapater.

Can you believe that he went on loan to Brum?! Couldn't believe it when they sealed that deal, then he gets ruled out for 6 months!

It's a shame that he's got injured, I think he would have done well in the EPL. IMO he is a perfect DM he wins the ball, is able to shrug of the opposition and a good passing range to create quick counters.

Mascherano Mark II

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:kas we've seen nothing to suggest they can win it i agree, BUT if they can finding a TEAM out of the superb individuals in the squad they still have a chance, most of the big guns are stuttering in qualification

Spain always choke, they will never win anything. I would back Scotland before I backed Spain.

i don't think they do "choke" its more they aren't a team, there's been too much RM v FCB about the squads in history. The one major bonus as both teams have become even more cosmopolitan is that there are players from a number of other clubs which in the long run will help. aragones is clearly not the man to do it, but IF they can find the right person they could go close.

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:i don't think they do "choke" its more they aren't a team, there's been too much RM v FCB about the squads in history. The one major bonus as both teams have become even more cosmopolitan is that there are players from a number of other clubs which in the long run will help. aragones is clearly not the man to do it, but IF they can find the right person they could go close.

So many times in the past Spain have had great teams, they play one good game, the hype starts and then playCr@pfor the rest of the tournament and go out. Or they lose all their games and play amazing football, when they are already on the way out.

The only time they looked like they could go far was in Euro 2000 and Rauls penalty miss summed up Spanish (international) football.

I honestly wouldnt be surprised if they went out in the group stages.

I think the real v Barca is a big problem, but I think the biggest problem is that the Spanish players arent actually as good as many people think. They look really good in la liga and in the CL because they have lots of foreigners (usually South Americans) making them look better than they actually are.

Rez wrote:but I think the biggest problem is that the Spanish players arent actually as good as many people think. They look really good in la liga and in the CL because they have lots of foreigners (usually South Americans) making them look better than they actually are.

what a joke.

Torres looked awful in Spain suddenly looks decent in england?????

The midfield players mentioned are absolute class, its been Spain's prob for some time picking 11 from 20 or so v similar quality players and never finding the right balance and a team. your taking about teams that regularly get to the latter stages of european club competitions, yes there are foreigners but that doesn't mean the spanish players are made to look good, it could easily be the other way.

How many teams wouldn't want David Villa, Vicente (when fully fit), Joaquin (at his best), Cesc, Iniesta, Xavi, Albelda, Casillas, Sergio Ramos - these are class players ffs

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:
Torres looked awful in Spain suddenly looks decent in england?????

Torres doesn't even look good in England! He scored a decent goal verses Chelsea but apart from that he's been nothing special

Agree with the rest of what you said though. Spain has a lot of quality BUT it does lack a Plan B often - they're a bit like Arsenal used to be in that sense

Tweedle wrote:Torres doesn't even look good in England! He scored a decent goal verses Chelsea but apart from that he's been nothing special

i was trying to be kind he's certainly been slightly better in england but then you couldn't get much worse

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:

Rez wrote:but I think the biggest problem is that the Spanish players arent actually as good as many people think. They look really good in la liga and in the CL because they have lots of foreigners (usually South Americans) making them look better than they actually are.

what a joke.

Torres looked awful in Spain suddenly looks decent in england?????

The midfield players mentioned are absolute class, its been Spain's prob for some time picking 11 from 20 or so v similar quality players and never finding the right balance and a team. your taking about teams that regularly get to the latter stages of european club competitions, yes there are foreigners but that doesn't mean the spanish players are made to look good, it could easily be the other way.

How many teams wouldn't want David Villa, Vicente (when fully fit), Joaquin (at his best), Cesc, Iniesta, Xavi, Albelda, Casillas, Sergio Ramos - these are class players ffs

They're good especially Casillas, but none of the attacking players are the main players for a top team in the world. Out of all the players you mentioned how many have been responsible for winning a major competition for their clubs. They dont have a player that will win the game for them in a K.O round when things arent going there way.

The problem is that for their clubs in the big and important matches they have (foreign) players who step up and make the difference. So when they all play for Spain in a crunch game they struggle as none of them are used to making the difference.