The real ORANJE-ENGLAND topic; before and after the game!

Axeslammer ! wrote:

borocooper wrote:

really good for an 18yr old on his debut though, up against someone like Robben

I thought he was doing okay too

Far harder to be a young, inexperienced defender, than to be a young inexperienced attacker.

Good overlap that took Emmanuelsson away from J.Cole for Rooney's goal.

jonathan de guzman wrote:

rai Mihawk wrote:

jonathan de guzman wrote:

rai Mihawk wrote:@ jonathan de guzman

Sneijder in the team?, i dont think everyone will be happy

who's everyone?

Every dutch poster on this board ..

Sneijder is by far the best midfielder we have if used properly (with a DMF in his back).

Your right (i wont say he is the best by far, i could be shot) but if he was played in the role he is used to at his club .. he could do wonders.

This is the only criticism i have with van Basten, not playing Sneijder to his strength consistently ..

TeamSpirit wrote:

Axeslammer ! wrote:

borocooper wrote:

really good for an 18yr old on his debut though, up against someone like Robben

I thought he was doing okay too

Far harder to be a young, inexperienced defender, than to be a young inexperienced attacker.

Good overlap that took Emmanuelsson away from J.Cole for Rooney's goal.

Agreed on both accounts.

It was a mistake by Urby to leave his man, but great move by Richards all the same.

Van Der Vaart and Robben looked good....shame they seemed like the only ones with any drive though....

Poor game....Draw was the right result.

@ Axeslammer !

Shouldn't Robben have tracked back, for the first goal?

I thought Urby played well .. at least he didn't try and set up Gerrard like Khalid ..

rai Mihawk wrote:

jonathan de guzman wrote:

rai Mihawk wrote:

jonathan de guzman wrote:

rai Mihawk wrote:@ jonathan de guzman

Sneijder in the team?, i dont think everyone will be happy

who's everyone?

Every dutch poster on this board ..

Sneijder is by far the best midfielder we have if used properly (with a DMF in his back).

Your right (i wont say he is the best by far, i could be shot) but if he was played in the role he is used to at his club .. he could do wonders.

This is the only criticism i have with van Basten, not playing Sneijder to his strength consistently ..

can think of a few more dubious decisions, Boulah at right fullback is a dsigrace for Dutch football, he's absolutely useless attacking.

Richards was good, the stat neville only played in 8 of englands last 22 games, shows why England need a new rb

jonathan de guzman wrote:

rai Mihawk wrote:

jonathan de guzman wrote:

rai Mihawk wrote:

jonathan de guzman wrote:

rai Mihawk wrote:@ jonathan de guzman

Sneijder in the team?, i dont think everyone will be happy

who's everyone?

Every dutch poster on this board ..

Sneijder is by far the best midfielder we have if used properly (with a DMF in his back).

Your right (i wont say he is the best by far, i could be shot) but if he was played in the role he is used to at his club .. he could do wonders.

This is the only criticism i have with van Basten, not playing Sneijder to his strength consistently ..

can think of a few more dubious decisions, Boulah at right fullback is a dsigrace for Dutch football, he's absolutely useless attacking.

Boulahrouz at RB


Kromkamp - Boulahrouz - Ooijer - De Cler/Gio


Lawro, do you know who Tim de Cler is?

rai Mihawk wrote:@ Axeslammer !

Shouldn't Robben have tracked back, for the first goal?

I don't think so, if Urby had stuck with his man than Cole still would have had to make the right decision and do it right (playing a useful ball to Richards isn't as easy as it likes).

The lesser player would have had to cross, from a worse angle at a later time giving our central defenders a few more moments to get their acts together...

rai Mihawk wrote:@ Axeslammer !

Shouldn't Robben have tracked back, for the first goal?

I thought Urby played well .. at least he didn't try and set up Gerrard like Khalid ..

Boulah's lucky it fell to the one player without any brain whatsoever.

Anyone else would've taken that round the Goalkeeper.

Case closed.

rai Mihawk wrote:

jonathan de guzman wrote:

rai Mihawk wrote:

jonathan de guzman wrote:

rai Mihawk wrote:

jonathan de guzman wrote:

rai Mihawk wrote:@ jonathan de guzman

Sneijder in the team?, i dont think everyone will be happy

who's everyone?

Every dutch poster on this board ..

Sneijder is by far the best midfielder we have if used properly (with a DMF in his back).

Your right (i wont say he is the best by far, i could be shot) but if he was played in the role he is used to at his club .. he could do wonders.

This is the only criticism i have with van Basten, not playing Sneijder to his strength consistently ..

can think of a few more dubious decisions, Boulah at right fullback is a dsigrace for Dutch football, he's absolutely useless attacking.

Boulahrouz at RB


Kromkamp - Boulahrouz - Ooijer - De Cler/Gio


Lawro, do you know who Tim de Cler is?

Nothing compared the the mistakes Motty made during Holland's 1st WC match. About everything he said the first 15 minutes of that match was either bullshit or unture or both.

Steve Wilson called Mathijsen, Ooijer (in the WC) and tonight!

apart from that, he did his homework ... unlike Lawro (failed)

Can we now please forget this game ?

I'm starting to get depressed thinking about it all

TheDutchyNL wrote:*walks in after 4 months and gives an <ale> to everyone*

Best thing of this evening so far.

SpartaR wrote:

TheDutchyNL wrote:*walks in after 4 months and gives an <ale> to everyone*

Best thing of this evening so far.

You're forgetting another 1-1 result this evening

(clue : it has something to do with the best team in the world)

Don't forget to watch (if you haven't seen it) Blow out at 0.00 at BBC1 tonight. Anyone seen the movie?

Dutch deny McClaren respite

Rafael van der Vaart's late equaliser denied England a morale-boosting friendly victory over Holland.

Steve McClaren's side appeared to have done enough to earn England's first win over their hosts on Dutch soil since 1969 after Wayne Rooney had given them a first-half lead in a match they controlled for long periods.

But an encouraging evening ended in frustration after their back four failed to deal with a long throw from the left with five minutes left.

Two flick-ons carried the ball to the feet of van der Vaart near the back post and the Hamburg midfielder fired past Paul Robinson from eight yards.

England still might have won the match through Steven Gerrard's last-minute shot, which was well-saved by substitute goalkeeper, Maarten Stekelenburg, and Holland could have had few complaints given how rarely they threatened for much of the match.

McClaren's decision to make Micah Richards the youngest defender to represent England was vindicated by the end of the evening.

But the 18-year-old Manchester City right-back had a rude introduction to international football, slithering on to his backside as Arjen Robben wriggled past him on the left hand side of the box to generate Holland's only real opportunity prior to van der Vaart's equaliser.

The Chelsea winger's shot was struck from an acute angle but with such ferocity that Robinson was unable to control the direction of his block.

The ball spun dangerously across the goalmouth but the Wigan midfielder Denny Landzaat was unable to direct his follow-up header on target.

Two minutes later Gerrard had an even better chance to put England ahead, when Khalid Boulahrouz's under-hit backpass presented him with a clear run at goal.

The Liverpool midfielder opted for a first-time shot with his left foot when an extra touch might have improved the odds on him scoring. But Henk Timmer, standing in for Edwin van der Sar in the Dutch goal, was a shade fortunate that the ball bounced off the inside of his boot and away for a corner.

As ever, Holland's approach work was easy on the eye. But, having survived that early Robben-inspired scare, England's defence was able to keep their hosts at bay with a degree of comfort; a couple of long-range strikes from Clarence Seedorf and van der Vaart the best they could muster before the interval.

England's cutting edge looked sharper with Joe Cole at the centre of most of their good work.

After coming close to playing first Johnson and then Lampard into scoring positions, the Chelsea midfielder sent in a cross from the left that spun off the head of a Dutch defender to an unmarked Rooney, whose header from the penalty spot had neither the power or direction to overly trouble Timmer.

The Feyenoord goalkeeper then had to charge off his line and improvise a clearance with his knees after Rooney had headed Gerrard's chip into the box for Lampard to chase.

England's pressure finally paid off in the 38th minute when Cole, having switched flanks, found space on the right of the Dutch box and whipped a cross into the six-yard box.

With Timmer hesitating, Rooney was able to get across Andre Ooijer and claim his 12th international goal by prodding a volley past the goalkeeper with the outside of his right boot.

Robinson was called into action just after the start of the second half and did well to catch van der Vaart's swerving left-foot drive. A miscued clearance from Michael Carrick then afforded Seedorf the opportunity to send a volley skidding narrowly wide of the England goalkeeper's left-hand post.

Neither of those opportunities were as inviting as the one that Lampard presented to Rooney with a lay-off inside the box 20 minutes from the end.

The Manchester United forward's shot, from barely ten yards out, was uncharacteristically tame however and Stekelenburg was untroubled.

Carrick almost made the game safe for England shortly afterwards, his 30-yard drive grazing the outside of the post. Close but not close enough to deliver a victory McClaren could have done with.

Blow or Blowout?

rai Mihawk wrote:Dutch deny McClaren respite

Rafael van der Vaart's late equaliser denied England a morale-boosting friendly victory over Holland.

Steve McClaren's side appeared to have done enough to earn England's first win over their hosts on Dutch soil since 1969 after Wayne Rooney had given them a first-half lead in a match they controlled for long periods.

Words fail me.

kasnani wrote:Blow or Blowout?

Blow out: De Palma's movie with John Travolta. What is Blow like? I do know Blowup -the movie Blow out is kind of copying. That's a great movie:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060176/

Blow is the Johnny Depp/Penelope Cruz movie about drugs...a decent watch.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0221027/

Blow-Up is shit

kasnani wrote:Blow is the Johnny Depp/Penelope Cruz movie about drugs...a decent watch.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0221027/

Bit long, but entertaining enough.

Wasn't it made by the director of Boogie Nights, or am I getting confused?

I thought Blow was average at best. Another idiosyncractic character for Depp fans to jism over.

God awful match last night! A draw was too fair for both teams. I feel like the losing side all the same.

Well... for the English viewers, that was a typically underwhelming Van Basten Oranje performance.
Plenty has been said already, but in a nutshell:

Oranje:
Shit side, worse selection, and truly pitiful performance. And its no coincidence Van Persie wasn't there to bail out Marco this time.
Holland had a decent first and last 5 minutes bookending some of the most uninspiring plays yet. Holland had the better of England with better passing but like Arsenal this season couldn't penetrate or mount a decent attack. Credit to that does go to Terry and Rio, who had a good game defensively.
Holland had more shots, more shots on target, whole game possession of 70%, more corners, more free kicks, less off sides. So much for Lawro's assertion of England dominating. Yet they couldn't mount a decent attack, or find Kuyt in the box and resorted to the odd long distance attempt, due to the ineptitude of the midfield, and mispairing of the attack. Not to mention that bar Robben, VDV at times and Seedorf, who was obviously trying too hard, the entire team played like they were on qualudes - no one gave a shit, and were thinking about their mortgages instead.

Timmer is 37 and a level under VDS and Stekelenburg is 2 levels under VDS. They both did decently, both had a crucial save, but both also panicked when Rooney or Gerrard closed down on them. VDS wouldn't, and has better distribution and command of the back.

Boulah with his worst game for Oranje in his carreer, even though he was wasted playing RB instead of CB. Doesn't offer the buildup, or pace, like Kromkamp could. Does nobody understand he's a f*cking quality CB? That's the curse of being good enough for another position, I suppose.
Neither Ooijer or Mathijsen should have started IMO. Neither are most confident of CBs (playing at Blackburn and HSV respectively) to our disposal. Boulahrouz and Opdam (who is still the second best CB we have) should have - both are quality, in form, and aren't suffering from lack of confidence, playing for Chelsea and AZ. Besides Ooijer is getting on a bit (old) and wasn't able to "inspire" the team as captain.
De Cler (AZ) should have started and played. Period. Gio is good and underrated, but De Cler might already surpassed him - certainly in form and playing time.
Urby is a young talent, but wasn't and still isn't good enough to dispose either RBs. He was frequently caugth out of position (where he couldn't offer nothing) and let Mathijsen defend both LCB and LB the entire game. The one point where he had to defend, he FOOLISHLY let off the pressure from J.Cole, resulting in a good, open cross for Rooney to knock it in. See another 3 years Urby. Defensively and offensively lacking.

Schaars was invisible. Period. A miserable performance. Cocu is still sorely missed.
Landzaat decent but invisible. Bad performance.
Seedorf was alright. It was hard to shine in that midfield last night, but at least he showed some experience and eagerness. Linked up decently with the forwards, got a decent long shot or two. He might have lost the ball a couple of times (too much), but then again he was the only one in the midfield who was intercepting the English players too; so it evens out in his favour.
Kuyt. Is not the most effective as a lone striker or a LW. Incidentily, the only roles he's allowed to play by Van Basten. Decent, but not good enough performance.
VDV as a RW is laughable. He ha slong lost the pace and is a creative striker: a Bergkamp type. Anything else and your not using him right. Looked lively at times, but couldn't find Kuyt... or the ball.
Robben. Our best player, but often no-one to pass to. Should have been more selfish.

That's what you get when you don't select quality but opt for the worst inexperienced players, purge backup, don't use players' strengths, mispair teammates, and waste your best defender. And when Robin Van Persie isn't there to give the moment of magic. We're already used to it.
As a collective the players were pathethic; not interested. Passing the ball around only to lose it the umptheenth time when everybody is out of position. Marco no-strategy approach relied on personal quality from players, but in this game no-one was bothered.


England:
Couldn't string 4 passes together, but countered much better. England had less chances than Ornaje, but those chances were more likely to get something out of it (Gerrard 2x, Rooney's header). J.Cole the better player. Richards had a dream debut, and held his own against one of thoughest wingers in the game at 18! Had a role in the goal. On basis of this game, he's a good deputy for G.Neville.
Terry and Rio making the blunted attack more blunted, so there you go. The rest were below par. I'm not even sure if Rooney fluked the goal or not, if you watch the replays; he jumps, turns backwards, only stretching his right leg slightly. Not the action for true striker, there are more effective ways of knocking the ball in, and defintely not the action of a player, a striker, who hasn't been able to score for yonks, as the approach is too risky to miss the ball altogether, or if you hit did it, either too slow or not on target at all.

BBC were talking out of their arse too. We were dire, but so were you! The whole game was dire. We had the ball and didn't care, and England could only hoof or counter and still waste chances.

England had the better first XI on paper, but worse depth in squad, while our manager is sabotaging our first XI and the bench.

At least neither of us drew against Cyprus.

DD wrote:God awful match last night! A draw was too fair for both teams. I feel like the losing side all the same.

Well... for the English viewers, that was a typically underwhelming Van Basten Oranje performance.
Plenty has been said already, but in a nutshell:

Oranje:
Shit side, worse selection, and truly pitiful performance. And its no coincidence Van Persie wasn't there to bail out Marco this time.
Holland had a decent first and last 5 minutes bookending some of the most uninspiring plays yet. Holland had the better of England with better passing but like Arsenal this season couldn't penetrate or mount a decent attack. Credit to that does go to Terry and Rio, who had a good game defensively.
Holland had more shots, more shots on target, whole game possession of 70%, more corners, more free kicks, less off sides. So much for Lawro's assertion of England dominating. Yet they couldn't mount a decent attack, or find Kuyt in the box and resorted to the odd long distance attempt, due to the ineptitude of the midfield, and mispairing of the attack. Not to mention that bar Robben, VDV at times and Seedorf, who was obviously trying too hard, the entire team played like they were on qualudes - no one gave a shit, and were thinking about their mortgages instead.

Timmer is 37 and a level under VDS and Stekelenburg is 2 levels under VDS. They both did decently, both had a crucial save, but both also panicked when Rooney or Gerrard closed down on them. VDS wouldn't, and has better distribution and command of the back.

Boulah with his worst game for Oranje in his carreer, even though he was wasted playing RB instead of CB. Doesn't offer the buildup, or pace, like Kromkamp could. Does nobody understand he's a f*cking quality CB? That's the curse of being good enough for another position, I suppose.
Neither Ooijer or Mathijsen should have started IMO. Neither are most confident of CBs (playing at Blackburn and HSV respectively) to our disposal. Boulahrouz and Opdam (who is still the second best CB we have) should have - both are quality, in form, and aren't suffering from lack of confidence, playing for Chelsea and AZ. Besides Ooijer is getting on a bit (old) and wasn't able to "inspire" the team as captain.
De Cler (AZ) should have started and played. Period. Gio is good and underrated, but De Cler might already surpassed him - certainly in form and playing time.
Urby is a young talent, but wasn't and still isn't good enough to dispose either RBs. He was frequently caugth out of position (where he couldn't offer nothing) and let Mathijsen defend both LCB and LB the entire game. The one point where he had to defend, he FOOLISHLY let off the pressure from J.Cole, resulting in a good, open cross for Rooney to knock it in. See another 3 years Urby. Defensively and offensively lacking.

Schaars was invisible. Period. A miserable performance. Cocu is still sorely missed.
Landzaat decent but invisible. Bad performance.
Seedorf was alright. It was hard to shine in that midfield last night, but at least he showed some experience and eagerness. Linked up decently with the forwards, got a decent long shot or two. He might have lost the ball a couple of times (too much), but then again he was the only one in the midfield who was intercepting the English players too; so it evens out in his favour.
Kuyt. Is not the most effective as a lone striker or a LW. Incidentily, the only roles he's allowed to play by Van Basten. Decent, but not good enough performance.
VDV as a RW is laughable. He ha slong lost the pace and is a creative striker: a Bergkamp type. Anything else and your not using him right. Looked lively at times, but couldn't find Kuyt... or the ball.
Robben. Our best player, but often no-one to pass to. Should have been more selfish.

That's what you get when you don't select quality but opt for the worst inexperienced players, purge backup, don't use players' strengths, mispair teammates, and waste your best defender. And when Robin Van Persie isn't there to give the moment of magic. We're already used to it.
As a collective the players were pathethic; not interested. Passing the ball around only to lose it the umptheenth time when everybody is out of position. Marco no-strategy approach relied on personal quality from players, but in this game no-one was bothered.


England:
Couldn't string 4 passes together, but countered much better. England had less chances than Ornaje, but those chances were more likely to get something out of it (Gerrard 2x, Rooney's header). J.Cole the better player. Richards had a dream debut, and held his own against one of thoughest wingers in the game at 18! Had a role in the goal. On basis of this game, he's a good deputy for G.Neville.
Terry and Rio making the blunted attack more blunted, so there you go. The rest were below par. I'm not even sure if Rooney fluked the goal or not, if you watch the replays; he jumps, turns backwards, only stretching his right leg slightly. Not the action for true striker, there are more effective ways of knocking the ball in, and defintely not the action of a player, a striker, who hasn't been able to score for yonks, as the approach is too risky to miss the ball altogether, or if you hit did it, either too slow or not on target at all.

BBC were talking out of their arse too. We were dire, but so were you! The whole game was dire. We had the ball and didn't care, and England could only hoof or counter and still waste chances.

England had the better first XI on paper, but worse depth in squad, while our manager is sabotaging our first XI and the bench.

At least neither of us drew against Cyprus.

Excellently summed up. Although I know Oranje are in a similar situation to England - things can and will get better, too many decent players not to. Still rate and respect the Dutch side- that was no measure of their ability last night.

Totally agree with the comments regarding the BBC- talked absolute shit saying England were the better team; neither side were deserved of being classed as "better", it was just dour allround, although Holland had more possesion but looked average going forward, whereas looked threatening at times despite not being able to hold possesion.

Not good enough from either side. But then 1-1 draws with holland are the norm, as I said in another thread, there's no BITE to this fixture, no grudges, no hatred, so it was always going to be timid

But on the night that germany drew to cyprus, I dont feel so bad about it!

DD wrote:
At least neither of us drew against Cyprus.

Lol, that's a popular conclusion.

"Schadenfreude" definately has to be the best German word

http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8742_1690728,00.html

Im not alone in my view on fedinands passing!

Also, how come every England team ive watched for the last two years has more difficulcy getting the ball our of defence than any other team.
Even if there is a player who comes short, there is never anything on.
Is our movement that bad or are our players that bad at passing?

Kevin wrote:http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8742_1690728,00.html

Im not alone in my view on fedinands passing!

Also, how come every England team ive watched for the last two years has more difficulcy getting the ball our of defence than any other team.
Even if there is a player who comes short, there is never anything on.
Is our movement that bad or are our players that bad at passing?

Kevin you dead right. The middle is shit none of the players are not ready to take the game on themselves and make it happen. We can blame the coach and the management, there comes a point where the players have to take the blame..... England came alive just a little after holland scored......We have seen this before.........against portugal with 10 men in the WC realizing with minutes to go it was going to penalties we give it our best...... England is shit scared of not making cup competitions and will play conservative boring football because they feel they cannot match the other top teams in the skills department. They they take the safe road..........McClaren it seems is doing the same..................I want England to go and not hold back on anything and play our style of game fast plays with lots of movement in all three zones....... And it IS that f****** simple....