the great ARGIE MYSTERY

them Junior Gauchos only recently lifted the World Cup Trophy ; one of many U-Cups they seem to be winning with an almost nonchalent ease

Argentina's best players are coveted by the biggest clubs in the world and play in the best leagues in Europe, under the most canny managers known to man

year after year after year after...

so when the REAL World Cup starts, many of us fancy the Argies to go all the way

yet, bizarrely, the last time they have managed to reach the Semis only was when Maradona, a bit of a one-off, was still putting on his Puma boots

so

a) where does it all go wrong

and

b) will the Ariges ever come up with a firewall to keep that darn virus off their hard-disc

I really don't think that winning the U20 WC means a lot. Several mediocre squads have won the competition in the past.

I don't think that Argentinian players have been that sucessful at club or international level since the beggining of the decade. It's been a long time since the last time an argentinian offensive played well consistently. Riquelme, Saviola, Aimar, d'Alessandro, and Ortega, they are all very good players, but they couldn't make it to the next level and ended up playing for smaller clubs in Europe.

They need someone to step up in the face of adversity. Like Romário, Rivaldo and Ronaldo did in 94, 98 and 2002. Time will tell if Messi, Tevez or Aguero can do that.

They miss a World Class striker. I know that many here rate Crespo highly, but he is no Batistuta. He doesn't score so many important goals and he can't create his own chances like Batigol did. Redondo is gone and they also miss Simeone's desire and leadership.

They also aren't that good defensively. They miss a quality goalkeeper for a long time and Ayala never had a reliable partner.


BTW I checked the Brazilian squad that won the u20 WC in 2003. There are some good players like Daniel Carvalho, Dudu Cearense, Nilmar, Dagoberto and the only exceptional player is Dani Alves. Take a look at the list. Pay attention to Carlos Alberto birthdate.

http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/archive/tournament=104/edition=6537/teams/team=44018.html

i agree sheva. i dont remember who said it but an argentine said argentina creates very good players and brazil creates world class players. messi/aguero/tevez could be world class but they sadly all play the same postion while there is no one to play the striker role and no up and coming playmaker. mascherano will take care of the defence but they are not producing anything but second strikers.

Argentina needs tall players

sheva7 wrote:I really don't think that winning the U20 WC means a lot. Several mediocre squads have won the competition in the past.

I don't think that Argentinian players have been that sucessful at club or international level since the beggining of the decade. It's been a long time since the last time an argentinian offensive played well consistently. Riquelme, Saviola, Aimar, d'Alessandro, and Ortega, they are all very good players, but they couldn't make it to the next level and ended up playing for smaller clubs in Europe.

They need someone to step up in the face of adversity. Like Romário, Rivaldo and Ronaldo did in 94, 98 and 2002. Time will tell if Messi, Tevez or Aguero can do that.

They miss a World Class striker. I know that many here rate Crespo highly, but he is no Batistuta. He doesn't score so many important goals and he can't create his own chances like Batigol did. Redondo is gone and they also miss Simeone's desire and leadership.

They also aren't that good defensively. They miss a quality goalkeeper for a long time and Ayala never had a reliable partner.


BTW I checked the Brazilian squad that won the u20 WC in 2003. There are some good players like Daniel Carvalho, Dudu Cearense, Nilmar, Dagoberto and the only exceptional player is Dani Alves. Take a look at the list. Pay attention to Carlos Alberto birthdate.

http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/archive/tournament=104/edition=6537/teams/team=44018.html

You bring up Batisuta, Simeone and Redondo, but Argentina didnt win anything with them either. The 98 and 02 teams were very strong.

Crespo is not as good as Batistuta (not many are), but you are being slightly harsh on him. He was not as good at dribbling as Batisuta and misses more than him, but his heading is definately better and Crespo has some very nice one touch passes, which creates chances for others while Batistuta was more greedy. Its unfair to say he only scored unimportant goals since most of Batistuta's world cup goals were againt Japan, Greece, Jamaica etc. and i remember him being very quiet agaisnt England and Holland.

Messiah wrote:Argentina needs tall players

didnt Brazil win WC 94 with Bebeto and Romario upfront?

Is it because football has changed?

Alot of managers now like to play with big, strong, quick, athletic players but not Argentina.

You could say Argentina are old-fashioned in the way they play football.

Messiah wrote:Argentina needs tall players

bullseye!

They need to get a team but they just prefer the best individuals.

Dark Savante wrote:They need to get a team but they just prefer the best individuals.

Thats quite untrue.

The 2006 team was a team, hence they dropped players like Zanetti and Samuel and Tevez and Messi did not start.

Ricardo Jol wrote:

Messiah wrote:Argentina needs tall players

bullseye!

They need me and Ricardo to advise them (as do England) - we were on to this a long time ago !

As well as how overrated Riquelme is.

height maybe plays a role

it's impossible to control the skies with midgets

BUT

I think it goes beyond that

Argentina are just not DIRECT enough

also, I think of them as a MIDFIELD-TEAM

all the action is in midfield with their slick passing

in fact, they are so good on the ball, that they just don't want to part with it

even if that means scoring goals

when it comes to the art of hitting the net, they always look like they want to CARRY THE BALL INTO GOAL

psychologists would say: they are too clingy, too possessive

+

too many of their moves go through the middle , that tends to be congested

obviously, the lack of height makes a proper wing-play difficult

so why is it that Argentina are so short

a question of football culture and preference (just like Ajax) , or are there not enough hormones in those Gaucho steaks

Predictable football tactics has hurt the argies thats all. Top teams of today have to be able to adapt more than in the past. They may lack height but I dont think this is reason enough a talented football nation not to be able to get more out of their players. Being over individualistic could hurt them more. How can you set up new team plays if the players are brought up to beat everyone and pass when then a lane is open. Makes for great talented players but ouch!!! In fact there system is a stand alone flatform they really dont need a coach........

Messiah wrote:Argentina needs tall players

When your playing in youth tournaments its easier for technical players to play football past your opponents. Whereas as you get older it unfortunately ends up becoming a more physical game. Just look at some of the midgets Argentina has produced - Ardiles, Ortega, Gallardo, Maradona, Messi, Tevez, Aimar, Saviola.

I think the same is applicable to Spain they do well at youth tournaments but nothing on the big stage; Silva, Iniesta, Xavi, Fabregas, Villa.

Brazil on the other hand do well as they combine technical ability with physical strength.

Smurfism is a problem, no doubt, ask Barcelona. However, I have to agree with otto about the 'directness' thing. Argentina have become too predictable, that is the downside of having your youth and senior teams play the same system from an early age, the lack of tactical variability and adaptability.

Argentina is a like a fine tuned clockwork that runs perfectly and is a joy to watch, but fragile and easy to interrupt at the same time. They need to play at their own rhythm to work, and unlike the other South American power house Brazil, they seem to be unable to change their rhythm / strategy according to their opponent. And this weakness is exposed against stronger sides foremost.

Samba de Baiano wrote:

Messiah wrote:Argentina needs tall players

When your playing in youth tournaments its easier for technical players to play football past your opponents. Whereas as you get older it unfortunately ends up becoming a more physical game. Just look at some of the midgets Argentina has produced - Ardiles, Ortega, Gallardo, Maradona, Messi, Tevez, Aimar, Saviola.

I think the same is applicable to Spain they do well at youth tournaments but nothing on the big stage; Silva, Iniesta, Xavi, Fabregas, Villa.

Brazil on the other hand do well as they combine technical ability with physical strength.

This is complete bullshit

Argentina have had players like Crespo, Batisuta, Cruz, Kily, Veron, Riquelme, Simeone, Samuel, Ayala etc. in recent years. Not exactly midgets are they.

This is a football forum not a basketball forum

BoBo Vieri wrote:

Samba de Baiano wrote:

Messiah wrote:Argentina needs tall players

When your playing in youth tournaments its easier for technical players to play football past your opponents. Whereas as you get older it unfortunately ends up becoming a more physical game. Just look at some of the midgets Argentina has produced - Ardiles, Ortega, Gallardo, Maradona, Messi, Tevez, Aimar, Saviola.

I think the same is applicable to Spain they do well at youth tournaments but nothing on the big stage; Silva, Iniesta, Xavi, Fabregas, Villa.

Brazil on the other hand do well as they combine technical ability with physical strength.

This is complete bullshit

Argentina have had players like Crespo, Batisuta, Cruz, Kily, Veron, Riquelme, Simeone, Samuel, Ayala etc. in recent years. Not exactly midgets are they.

Crespo is tall.

Batistuta retired years ago, Cruz rarely plays.

Kily ?!

Veron and Simeone I'll give you but Riquelme is a fag and Samuel and Ayala are hardly big for CB's.

Ayala is about 5ft 9 !

Pierre Littbarski wrote:

BoBo Vieri wrote:

Samba de Baiano wrote:

Messiah wrote:Argentina needs tall players

When your playing in youth tournaments its easier for technical players to play football past your opponents. Whereas as you get older it unfortunately ends up becoming a more physical game. Just look at some of the midgets Argentina has produced - Ardiles, Ortega, Gallardo, Maradona, Messi, Tevez, Aimar, Saviola.

I think the same is applicable to Spain they do well at youth tournaments but nothing on the big stage; Silva, Iniesta, Xavi, Fabregas, Villa.

Brazil on the other hand do well as they combine technical ability with physical strength.

This is complete bullshit

Argentina have had players like Crespo, Batisuta, Cruz, Kily, Veron, Riquelme, Simeone, Samuel, Ayala etc. in recent years. Not exactly midgets are they.

Crespo is tall.

Batistuta retired years ago, Cruz rarely plays.

Kily ?!

Veron and Simeone I'll give you but Riquelme is a fag and Samuel and Ayala are hardly big for CB's.

Ayala is about 5ft 9 !

it was a response to the other guys post who named random midgets that Argentina have produced in the last few years. My point is that there are probably more players that are not midgets. I just named random players off the top of my head, theres loads more.

And Samuel is very big i think.

what do our South Americans like todo, puro and barrilete have to say about Argie underchievement

they will win the next WC.

otto hat Euch alle lieb wrote:what do our South Americans like todo, puro and barrilete have to say about Argie underchievement

mongrel hawk wrote:they will win the next WC.

Nein.

2010 is ours

the European Cup will be a confidence boost and then the real Germany will begin to show it's face

come on, todo, tell us your version of why Argentina have so far failed to live up to expectations

we mere Europeans have tried our best

but what's the S.American perspective on this little conundrum

Argentina have failed as opposed to which team? Yes, it looks like France is taking their place among the big 4, but not yet.

Brazil also spent 24 years without an important a title.

I think this Copa América loss was important for the Argies. They have been playing in the same way for ages, they need some changes. and they have the players to win in 2010.

Otto, forget about Germany or any other European winning the next WC. That will be a Brazil/Argentina WC, mark my words.

otto hat Euch alle lieb wrote:2010 is ours

the European Cup will be a confidence boost and then the real Germany will begin to show it's face

come on, todo, tell us your version of why Argentina have so far failed to live up to expectations

we mere Europeans have tried our best

but what's the S.American perspective on this little conundrum

mongrel hawk wrote:
Otto, forget about Germany or any other European winning the next WC. That will be a Brazil/Argentina WC, mark my words.

*marked* (if the forum still exists in 2010 that is...)

The first WC in Africa, so it's an even field. And its high time that a European team wins abroad.

Same time zone, good climate. I'm optimistic.

Blut, my mate, south americans always win in even fields...

blutgraetsche wrote:

mongrel hawk wrote:
Otto, forget about Germany or any other European winning the next WC. That will be a Brazil/Argentina WC, mark my words.

*marked* (if the forum still exists in 2010 that is...)

The first WC in Africa, so it's an even field. And its high time that a European team wins abroad.

Same time zone, good climate. I'm optimistic.

True, at least until now, but there always is a first time.

@look todo

winning a World Cup outside Europe is "virgin territory" for countries like Germany

agreed

but never underestimate the power of a German man to be the first

when it's all finished the Africans will wake up,

look into the clear ,

blue sky

with a MASSIVE smile on their faces

and say

I never knew German football would be

SO BIG

European countries never win outside of Europe. It's not just the weather or support, I remember Alex Ferguson mentioning in the 2002 world cup that the grass/playing surface is also different, and that always affects the European players (but I don't know how).

South Africa is the most "European" (European influenced) African nation. I bet the grass is as green as it is on the Scottish highlands, Fergie should not worry...

kas wrote:European countries never win outside of Europe. It's not just the weather or support, I remember Alex Ferguson mentioning in the 2002 world cup that the grass/playing surface is also different, and that always affects the European players (but I don't know how).

the different 2002 World Cup surfaces did not seem to stop our German B-team though, now did it