the great ARGIE MYSTERY

the weather has nothing to do with the cups held in South America and South Africa. Now it's 8 degrees here in São Paulo. I'm freezing.

the grass, as far as I know, is imported.

the difference is more psychological IMO. the fans, the atmosphere, the support, and... the refs. Brazil and Argentina were crushed by the refs in 1966.

kas wrote:European countries never win outside of Europe. It's not just the weather or support, I remember Alex Ferguson mentioning in the 2002 world cup that the grass/playing surface is also different, and that always affects the European players (but I don't know how).

otto hat Euch alle lieb wrote:

they always look like they want to CARRY THE BALL INTO GOAL

psychologists would say: they are too clingy, too possessive

so why is it that Argentina are so short

a question of football culture and preference (just like Ajax) , or are there not enough hormones in those Gaucho steaks

It's called the post-Maradona generation(s) disorder, and it affects anyone from the first kid in any rigged slum or neat park whose idol is Aimar, or D'alesandro, or Tevez, or Aguero, or Messi, or...to the last coach, trainer, scout who looks for the diego look-a-like...

our stakes though remain as ever, top notch(though I don't suppose it's part of the kids diet)

You Argies have a true 'conveyor belt of talent', that most definitely is not the problem. You have brilliant players for almost every position, including quality alternatives as well.

The real problem is more of a philosophical issue, at least in my humble opinion. Are you willing to try something different, are you willing to break with the tradition (if that's actually true, today's Argentina side is very different to the WC winning side of 1986, for example)? Are you willing to play a counter attacking strategy against Brazil, for example, and give them some of their own medcine which they have used so effectively against you guys in the last few years?

I'm not saying that Argentina should copy others and give up their typical style of football, that would be a pity, but I think that more flexibility is really necessary.

blutgraetsche wrote:Smurfism is a problem, no doubt, ask Barcelona. However, I have to agree with otto about the 'directness' thing. Argentina have become too predictable, that is the downside of having your youth and senior teams play the same system from an early age, the lack of tactical variability and adaptability.

Argentina is a like a fine tuned clockwork that runs perfectly and is a joy to watch, but fragile and easy to interrupt at the same time. They need to play at their own rhythm to work, and unlike the other South American power house Brazil, they seem to be unable to change their rhythm / strategy according to their opponent. And this weakness is exposed against stronger sides foremost.

Then how do you explain the earlier "catenaccio" argentina and their later free flowing attacking style

You mean the ultra defensive 1990 Argentina team under Carlos Bilardo? That actually proves my point, today's Argentina is very different to the successful Argentina side of the 1980s and early 1990s, which was way more flexible indeed.

There has been a lack of flexibility in the Argentina game for a long time now, it simply has become too predictable, and the better teams have found means to exploit that quite effectively. Argentina needs to change to be truly successful again, talent alone won't be enough.

BoBo Vieri wrote:

You bring up Batisuta, Simeone and Redondo, but Argentina didnt win anything with them either. The 98 and 02 teams were very strong.

Crespo is not as good as Batistuta (not many are), but you are being slightly harsh on him. He was not as good at dribbling as Batisuta and misses more than him, but his heading is definately better and Crespo has some very nice one touch passes, which creates chances for others while Batistuta was more greedy. Its unfair to say he only scored unimportant goals since most of Batistuta's world cup goals were againt Japan, Greece, Jamaica etc. and i remember him being very quiet agaisnt England and Holland.

Batistuta, Simeone and Redondo have won the Copa America twice. At the time Brazil sent their best squad.

I didn't say that Crespo scores only against the small sides. I said that Batistuta scored more important goals than him at club and national level.

IMO argentinians should have more important roles in the big european clubs. They would be more used to play in big matches and know how to deal with the pressure.

There's nothing wrong with being short. Players can't be lightweight. Tevez is small, but he is very strong physically.

blutgraetsche wrote:You mean the ultra defensive 1990 Argentina team under Carlos Bilardo? That actually proves my point, today's Argentina is very different to the successful Argentina side of the 1980s and early 1990s, which was way more flexible indeed.

There has been a lack of flexibility in the Argentina game for a long time now, it simply has become too predictable, and the better teams have found means to exploit that quite effectively. Argentina needs to change to be truly successful again, talent alone won't be enough.

well the team that won in 78 under menotti was focused on attacking football more so then both the argentina from 2006 and the 2007. imo the problem is they are not that good enough offensivly. there is no flow in their game so it is easy to break up.

Uhmm.

sheva7 wrote:I didn't say that Crespo scores only against the small sides. I said that Batistuta scored more important goals than him at club and national level.

Don't know about national team stats, but at club level Crespo has scored a lot of important goals, at least in Italy.
Last season alone in the league for Inter he won us the away game with Roma, scored the first goal in the Milan derby, and an hat trick against Lazio.
And he scored two goals in the 2005 Milan-Liverpool CL final.

sheva7 wrote:IMO argentinians should have more important roles in the big european clubs. They would be more used to play in big matches and know how to deal with the pressure.

Oh well... don't think that's the problem.
Zanetti and Cambiasso have important roles at Inter. Veron had it at Inter, Lazio and Parma. Crespo at Parma, Lazio, Inter, Milan. Samuel at Roma. Ayala at Valencia.
Riquelme at Villareal, it's not such a big club but they reached a CL semi.
Messi is a star at Barca. Heinze plays for ManU, Mascherano for Liverpool.
Tevez will surely go to a very big team soon. Milito will start for Barca.
And so on...

sheva7 wrote:There's nothing wrong with being short. Players can't be lightweight. Tevez is small, but he is very strong physically.

Being well build doesn't give you an advantage in air over taller players.

Ok, there's still nothing wrong with being short, as you have advantages in other aspects, but fielding only diminutive forwards may be wrong.
Messi-Tevez was a risky combination, and it backfired.

abundance wrote:Uhmm.

sheva7 wrote:I didn't say that Crespo scores only against the small sides. I said that Batistuta scored more important goals than him at club and national level.

Don't know about national team stats, but at club level Crespo has scored a lot of important goals, at least in Italy.
Last season alone in the league for Inter he won us the away game with Roma, scored the first goal in the Milan derby, and an hat trick against Lazio.
And he scored two goals in the 2005 Milan-Liverpool CL final.

sheva7 wrote:IMO argentinians should have more important roles in the big european clubs. They would be more used to play in big matches and know how to deal with the pressure.

Oh well... don't think that's the problem.
Zanetti and Cambiasso have important roles at Inter. Veron had it at Inter, Lazio and Parma. Crespo at Parma, Lazio, Inter, Milan. Samuel at Roma. Ayala at Valencia.
Riquelme at Villareal, it's not such a big club but they reached a CL semi.
Messi is a star at Barca. Heinze plays for ManU, Mascherano for Liverpool.
Tevez will surely go to a very big team soon. Milito will start for Barca.
And so on...

sheva7 wrote:There's nothing wrong with being short. Players can't be lightweight. Tevez is small, but he is very strong physically.

Being well build doesn't give you an advantage in air over taller players.

Ok, there's still nothing wrong with being short, as you have advantages in other aspects, but fielding only diminutive forwards may be wrong.
Messi-Tevez was a risky combination, and it backfired.

Batistuta scored a lot of important goals for Fiorentina, Roma and Argentina as well. Like Bobo said before maybe I'm being a little bit harsh on Crespo.

You missed my point about the argentinian roles in the big european squads or perhaps I should've explained it better. We can't deny that some of them have important roles for big european clubs, but they don't mean for their clubs what Kaká means to Milan, Ronaldo means to United, Henry meant to Arsenal, Rivaldo and Romário meant for Barça, Ronaldo meant for Barça and Inter, Zidane meant to Juve and Madrid, Del Piero meant to Juve, Sheva meant to Milan, etc, etc, etc.

They aren't the main players of the biggest european clubs, the ones that will guide them to titles and UCL final stages. Those players have to handle with the pressure and have much more responsability than the rest for the sucess of their clubs. Messi and Tevez might change that in the near future.

Brazil and Argentina most important players (Pelé, Garrincha, Romário, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Kempes and Maradona) stepped up when they have won the competition and they were by far the most important players of their respective clubs.

Valencia is not that big, but Kempes had been topscorer in La Liga in each of the past two seasons before the 1978 WC.

Brazil have won a WC playing with Bebeto and Romário upfront. BTW Romario's header put Brazil in the final. Messi and Tevez may not work together because Tevez plays better as a SS. It doesn't have anything to do with his height.

sheva7 wrote:

abundance wrote:Uhmm.

sheva7 wrote:I didn't say that Crespo scores only against the small sides. I said that Batistuta scored more important goals than him at club and national level.

Don't know about national team stats, but at club level Crespo has scored a lot of important goals, at least in Italy.
Last season alone in the league for Inter he won us the away game with Roma, scored the first goal in the Milan derby, and an hat trick against Lazio.
And he scored two goals in the 2005 Milan-Liverpool CL final.

sheva7 wrote:IMO argentinians should have more important roles in the big european clubs. They would be more used to play in big matches and know how to deal with the pressure.

Oh well... don't think that's the problem.
Zanetti and Cambiasso have important roles at Inter. Veron had it at Inter, Lazio and Parma. Crespo at Parma, Lazio, Inter, Milan. Samuel at Roma. Ayala at Valencia.
Riquelme at Villareal, it's not such a big club but they reached a CL semi.
Messi is a star at Barca. Heinze plays for ManU, Mascherano for Liverpool.
Tevez will surely go to a very big team soon. Milito will start for Barca.
And so on...

sheva7 wrote:There's nothing wrong with being short. Players can't be lightweight. Tevez is small, but he is very strong physically.

Being well build doesn't give you an advantage in air over taller players.

Ok, there's still nothing wrong with being short, as you have advantages in other aspects, but fielding only diminutive forwards may be wrong.
Messi-Tevez was a risky combination, and it backfired.

Batistuta scored a lot of important goals for Fiorentina, Roma and Argentina as well. Like Bobo said before maybe I'm being a little bit harsh on Crespo.

You missed my point about the argentinian roles in the big european squads or perhaps I should've explained it better. We can't deny that some of them have important roles for big european clubs, but they don't mean for their clubs what Kaká means to Milan, Ronaldo means to United, Henry meant to Arsenal, Rivaldo and Romário meant for Barça, Ronaldo meant for Barça and Inter, Zidane meant to Juve and Madrid, Del Piero meant to Juve, Sheva meant to Milan, etc, etc, etc.

They aren't the main players of the biggest european clubs, the ones that will guide them to titles and UCL final stages. Those players have to handle with the pressure and have much more responsability than the rest for the sucess of their clubs. Messi and Tevez might change that in the near future.

Brazil and Argentina most important players (Pelé, Garrincha, Romário, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Kempes and Maradona) stepped up when they have won the competition and they were by far the most important players of their respective clubs.

Valencia is not that big, but Kempes had been topscorer in La Liga in each of the past two seasons before the 1978 WC.

Brazil have won a WC playing with Bebeto and Romário upfront. BTW Romario's header put Brazil in the final. Messi and Tevez may not work together because Tevez plays better as a SS. It doesn't have anything to do with his height.

But Batistuta was Fiorentina's main player, Riquelme for Villareal, Veron and Crespo for Lazio, Claudio Lopez for Valencia, Gallardo for Monaco though i guess some of these clubs arent very "big".

sheva7 wrote:You missed my point about the argentinian roles in the big european squads or perhaps I should've explained it better. We can't deny that some of them have important roles for big european clubs, but they don't mean for their clubs what Kaká means to Milan, Ronaldo means to United, Henry meant to Arsenal, Rivaldo and Romário meant for Barça, Ronaldo meant for Barça and Inter, Zidane meant to Juve and Madrid, Del Piero meant to Juve, Sheva meant to Milan, etc, etc, etc.

They aren't the main players of the biggest european clubs, the ones that will guide them to titles and UCL final stages. Those players have to handle with the pressure and have much more responsability than the rest for the sucess of their clubs. Messi and Tevez might change that in the near future.

Yay I see I didn't get your point properly.
Indeed one could say that there isn't a true team leading star among those argies playing in big european club.

But yet there are so many that are regular starters and influential personalities, I think it should be enough to build a serious and experienced international team.

sheva7 wrote:Brazil have won a WC playing with Bebeto and Romário upfront. BTW Romario's header put Brazil in the final. Messi and Tevez may not work together because Tevez plays better as a SS. It doesn't have anything to do with his height.

Oh right, no doubt about that.
I was only arguing that if you use small forwards, you can't effectively count on the usual "when everything else fails" tactics (long balls and blind crosses).
So you'd better play well and make use of their speed and pace, or you'll find yourself in troubles.