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    What's wrong with Sevilla?

    fcb
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    Post by fcb Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:59 pm

    As most may know, Sevilla have got off to a terrible start to the season, languishing towards the bottom of the table (though they've played a game less). Not only is the team underperforming, the individual players have also been poor - Alves and Palop haven't sustained their best form, Poulsen isn't always in the team, Keita and Kone are still settling in, and Kanoute has also been rested, but is having difficulty scoring.

    Marca suggested the following reasons:

    1. The death of Puerta has left the team in shock. This certainly has some credibility, because they destroyed Madrid in the Spanish Super cup, but things have been terrible since the European Super Cup match. But this has also had an impact on the pitch, with Dragutinovic (not a natural LB) forced to fill in.

    2. The media drama around Dani Alves and Juande Ramos has unsettled the team. Speculation about Ramos continued well into the season and will no doubt keep flaring up, while Alves was very disappointed at not leaving but was forced to suppress his true opinion because of the Puerta incident. Otherwise I wouldn't have been surprised to see Afonso Alves or Ronaldo-esque reaction from him (refusing to train, etc.).

    3. The injury to captain and key CB Javi Navarro has caused problems in defense.

    4. Mental and physical fatigue due to their achievements and long seasons the past two years.

    5. Simple bad luck, esp. in a couple of recent La Liga games...though I would blame that partly on Kone's poor finishing, which leads into...

    6. An over-dependence on Kanoute to score goals. Luis Fabiano isn't that special, the midfield isn't chipping in (Renato), and Kone is still new to the league. Kerzhakov is good but doesn't really seem to be someone who can play by himself up front if Kanoute is missing.


    Obviously all these reasons may play some part, but I'd like to add a couple of my own:


    7. The need to compete in the CL and league at the same time has crippled a lot of teams in the past, and the same is happening to Sevilla. Recently both Betis and Osasuna struggled in the league after qualifying for the CL by finishing 4th their previous season. Osasuna didn't even make it past the qualifying stage.
    IMO Juande Ramos has made some very poor decisions in rotating his team to rest his best players (Kanoute, Poulsen), and is still learning this whole rotation thing. The constant shuffling of CBs (Escude, Boulahrouz, Fazio, and Mosquera in various partnerships) isn't helping at all, affected of course by Navarro's injury.

    8. I've also noticed a worrying lack of ambition from Ramos himself. Recently he came out making comments that effectively meant "we have over-achieved the past 2 seasons, Sevilla is not among the best teams in Europe, etc.". Though this was his way of downplaying expectations and trying to deny that Sevilla were in a crisis as some people were suggesting, I think it's backfired. Today Maresca came out and voiced a similar opinion, saying "it's impossible to repeat the success of the past 2 seasons".
    It's okay to be realistic, but I think Ramos has ended up demotivating his players and it has had an impact on their performances. With the manager himself likely to leave at the end of the season, there's a danger they'll just settle for a UEFA Cup spot instead of pushing Atletico, Villarreal, and Valencia for a top 4 spot.


    Last edited by on Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by Fey Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:01 pm

    Well this just happens alot with Spanish teams...they just seem to fade away again. Sociedad, Depor etc. They just seem to peak two years max or so.

    ...And its cause Tom de Mul of course..
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    Post by Puro Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:12 pm

    I agree with Marca's views including the way they list Sevilla's circumstances this season. Sevilla should regain focus. This international break will help them sort things out. <Ale>
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    Post by robert Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:35 pm

    For me it's just the champions league. Whenever a team that is not in the real money gets there, they always suffer for the participation. Celta Vigo got relagated. Villareal struggled in the league despite making the CL semis.
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    Post by Tweesus Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:55 pm

    They just couldn't handle a walloping from the gunners Ale
    EMP
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    Post by EMP Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:44 am

    Still hung over from their weight in beer bonuses.
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    Post by Jaime Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:21 am

    robert wrote:For me it's just the champions league. Whenever a team that is not in the real money gets there, they always suffer for the participation. Celta Vigo got relagated. Villareal struggled in the league despite making the CL semis.

    I suggested this would be the case before the season started. Everyone thought I was crazy to not have Sevilla finishing in the top 4 this season. Not that some of the other factors don't have merit but the CL is a big burden. People underestimate how difficult it is to be successful in CL and the Spanish league simultaneously.
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    Post by fcb Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:45 am

    Yeah in the "La Liga Contenders" thread I picked them to finish 6th, and quite a few of the regular Liga watchers did the same (or lower). There were some 3rd and 4th though, which doesn't look too likely right now.
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    Post by godof86 Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:22 am

    Ah they will pick up. 5th/6th is about right. After they are out of the CL, they will be good again.

    They are a good team, you know. At least, they have a good top 11.
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    Post by EMP Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:30 am

    Wile the Champions League is more difficult, Sevilla is a different case. They have a pedigree in European competition having won ythe UEFA Cup the last two seasons. That competition involve a league as well. They are just going through a hard time with a lot of factors affecting it. They are not out of the Champions League yet and other teams will have blips. I think they are a bit unsettled over whether was Ramos was going to leave. Perhaps some of the players have lost confidence in him. Wouldn't be surprised if del Nido expects him to go so they won't back him with signings this season.
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    Post by robert Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:21 pm

    They have European pedigree yes, but playing Uefa cup and playing CL are very different, Celta Vigo had some Uefa pedigree before they qualified for CL. For Seville, I'm pretty sure the length of their stay in the CL will be inversly porportional to their position in LA Liga.
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    Post by Torrente Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:25 pm

    The smartest thing for Sevilla at the beginning of the season would have been to take a bit of a risk and go on a spending spree. I'm not talking about doing it Leeds United style but buying 1 or 2 quality signings and a few decent squad players would have helped a lot. Sevilla has a good amount of money in the bank from the sale of Reyes, Baptista, Ramos, etc. + CL money so they should have been a bit more ambitious. I do have high hopes on Kone though based on what I saw from him in PSV but it might not be until next season that he starts performing to his ability.
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    Post by Pierre Littbarski Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:21 pm

    The manager is a dickhead and picks bums like Kherzakov and Kone ahead of Chevanton.
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    Post by Calidad Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:42 pm

    Some of us at the start of the season were saying this. They always have been overrated, and D Alvez is vastly overrated. Puerta was class, and they will miss him.
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    Post by Deluded F*ck™ Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:03 pm

    Calidad wrote:Some of us at the start of the season were saying this. They always have been overrated, and D Alvez is vastly overrated. Puerta was class, and they will miss him.

    ok
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    Post by EMP Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:01 am

    Pierre Littbarski wrote:The manager is a dickhead and picks bums like Kherzakov and Kone ahead of Chevanton.

    They had an exceptional season last campaign without picking Chevanton. The manager is anything but a bum. He was highly sought after and moulded Sevilla into a team that exceeded expectations. Not picking Chevanton doesn't come close to explaining how they did well before and not now.
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    Post by Deluded F*ck™ Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:58 am

    Also: I think it's partly to due to the whole fiasco with my team, and I think more & more teams have figured them out... because Sevilla are more about Ramos' system than any *brilliant* induviduals, IMO.
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    Post by StevieG Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:16 pm

    i agree with your own points to why sevilla are not achieving as well Kas. i wudn't be suprised to still see Ramos at tottenham.
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    Post by Pierre Littbarski Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:59 pm

    EMP wrote:
    Pierre Littbarski wrote:The manager is a dickhead and picks bums like Kherzakov and Kone ahead of Chevanton.

    They had an exceptional season last campaign without picking Chevanton. The manager is anything but a bum. He was highly sought after and moulded Sevilla into a team that exceeded expectations. Not picking Chevanton doesn't come close to explaining how they did well before and not now.

    He was their top scorer in the UEFA Cup.

    Quick, a great improviser with an explosive shot, great set-piece taker, gets assists, great record in Italy, France and European club comp, never complains when subbed, always very popular with fans and team-mates, contributed when it really mattered v Real Madrid and at Shakhtar...

    ...and he gets picked behind Kherzakov and Kone ?!

    f@ck off !

    Ramos likes being the superstar who's linked with high-profile jobs and he's frightened of picking a player who can be 10 times bigger than him, that's all I can think of.
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    Post by Lard Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:05 am

    Sir Les Jurgen of Ginola™️ wrote:
    Calidad wrote:Some of us at the start of the season were saying this. They always have been overrated, and D Alvez is vastly overrated. Puerta was class, and they will miss him.

    ok

    If Tottenham won the uefa cup two years in a row, and were in the title race untill the last day of the season, as well as getting to the final of the f.a cup would you agree Tottenham were overated if people rated them as a top team? of course not i don't see how on earth they are overated.

    Some things are going wrong for them this year, they were a bit unlucky in some games, but they will still do well.
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    Post by Lard Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:08 am

    Pierre Littbarski wrote:
    EMP wrote:
    Pierre Littbarski wrote:The manager is a dickhead and picks bums like Kherzakov and Kone ahead of Chevanton.

    They had an exceptional season last campaign without picking Chevanton. The manager is anything but a bum. He was highly sought after and moulded Sevilla into a team that exceeded expectations. Not picking Chevanton doesn't come close to explaining how they did well before and not now.

    He was their top scorer in the UEFA Cup.

    Quick, a great improviser with an explosive shot, great set-piece taker, gets assists, great record in Italy, France and European club comp, never complains when subbed, always very popular with fans and team-mates, contributed when it really mattered v Real Madrid and at Shakhtar...

    ...and he gets picked behind Kherzakov and Kone ?!

    f@ck off !

    Ramos likes being the superstar who's linked with high-profile jobs and he's frightened of picking a player who can be 10 times bigger than him, that's all I can think of.

    They rested players for most of the uefa cup campaign as they faced weaker teams in this competition. That's the only reason this guy got some minutes and got a few goals. Kanoute is better than him, and the other players fit into Sevilla's team ethic and style much better than his big ego. Kone hasnt slotted in so well just yet. But the russian is pretty good.
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    Post by golsud Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:12 am

    An article about this:

    http://futbolitis.blogs.terra.es/blogs/futbolitis/archive/2007/10/09/sevillacfganarcomoobligacin.aspx

    Haven't read it fully yet but this blog is excellent so the article should be good ok
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    Post by EMP Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:00 pm

    @ Pierre:

    Sevilla came third in La Liga - came close to winning it last season and won the Copa de Rey with Ramos in charge, plus they won the UEFA Cup the season before. Sevilla fans were singing Juande Ramos' name last season. How do you explain such success in an unfancied club? You surely don't think that it is all down to Chevanton and that Sevilla succeed in spite of Ramos. He clearly has a very good squad that has achieved a great deal and some of the credit for that ebelongs to him, though I do think the Tottenham stuff unsettled the club a bit.

    How much did Chevanton contribute to the first UEFA success, the 3rd place in La Liga and the Cop del Rey triumph?
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    Post by Lard Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:35 pm

    Everyone pierre likes or rates goes to $h!t. I thought he couldn't go wrong picking a 30 goal a season cl winner. Then he turned out to be the biggest flop in football history, that after missing the crucial pen in the cl final Biggrin <Ale>
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    Post by Deluded F*ck™ Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:09 am

    L r d wrote:
    Sir Les Jurgen of Ginola™️ wrote:
    Calidad wrote:Some of us at the start of the season were saying this. They always have been overrated, and D Alvez is vastly overrated. Puerta was class, and they will miss him.

    ok

    If Tottenham won the uefa cup two years in a row, and were in the title race untill the last day of the season, as well as getting to the final of the f.a cup would you agree Tottenham were overated if people rated them as a top team? of course not i don't see how on earth they are overated.

    Some things are going wrong for them this year, they were a bit unlucky in some games, but they will still do well.

    No - because we'd be up against 4 top sides, not 3, and we'd have to rely on the EPL top 4 to f@ck up an AWFUL lot, like Spain's big 3 did last season.

    If people started saying that Chimbonda was World Class, would you agree that the player/Spurs we're being overrated?

    Sevilla don't have the power to last the course, just like we wouldn't. Ramos had a great system going for 2 years, and now they're being found out a bit, putting aside other factors (e.g. Puerta, Ramos-gate). That much I'm sure of.
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    Post by Pierre Littbarski Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:55 pm

    L r d wrote:Everyone pierre likes or rates goes to $h!t

    Like who ?


    L r d wrote:I thought he couldn't go wrong picking a 30 goal a season cl winner. Then he turned out to be the biggest flop in football history, that after missing the crucial pen in the cl final Biggrin <Ale>

    ...after scoring the crucial pen in a CL final, taking an average to poor Dynamo side to within seconds of a CL final, scoring more European goals than any other player, being the 1st foreigner to be top scorer in a Serie A debut season, scoring the goals that brought Milan their 1st title in 5 years, getting them to their 1st CL final in 9, consistently outscoring Ruud, Henry in the big games, being Chelsea's most effective player in KO stages of CL, winning the Ballon D'or and, currently, making a much bigger impact on the big games in ECQ group B than Henry.

    Biggest flop in Football History ok
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    Post by The Pröfessör Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:40 pm

    Must be a hard time for u Pierre with your favourite players being "Kluivert/Chevanton/Shevchenko" . two of them overrated and passed their best, and the other not even good enough to make sevilla's bench.
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    Post by Pierre Littbarski Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:37 pm

    Agooner wrote:Must be a hard time for u Pierre with your favourite players being "Kluivert/Chevanton/Shevchenko" . two of them overrated and passed their best, and the other not even good enough to make sevilla's bench.

    ...must be harder for you - the fact that your favourite player can only score against Levante and the Faroe Islands.

    41 goals in 95 Caps eh ?

    Try 40 in 79 (Kluivert) Razz

    More important goals too !

    If you think the player with the best range of attributes of any footballer since Cruyff is overrated then I don't know why you bother watching football.

    As for Sheva - he can f@ck up now and still be a legend - he's already done enough (as listed above).

    He's still making a bigger impact on Group B than Henry - where were Henry's goals v Scotland and Italy scratch

    As for Chevanton - well I appreciate skill, charisma, improvisation, how could an Henry fan ever understand that ?
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    Post by Guest Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:21 pm

    they are many things one can call kluivert but overrated isn't one of them.
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    Post by The Pröfessör Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:56 pm

    [quote="Pierre Littbarski"]
    Agooner wrote:Must be a hard time for u Pierre with your favourite players being "Kluivert/Chevanton/Shevchenko" . two of them overrated and passed their best, and the other not even good enough to make sevilla's bench.

    Pierre Littbarski wrote:...must be harder for you - the fact that your favourite player can only score against Levante and the Faroe Islands.

    having the best record against the top 4 in premiership history shows he isn't a flat track bully. Not to mention his record against some of the the biggest clubs( inter, madrid, valencia, bayern, psv etc) in europe

    Pierre Littbarski wrote:41 goals in 95 Caps eh ?

    Try 40 in 79 (Kluivert) Razz

    This is your best friends shevchenk-who international stats( clever how u didn't mention it):

    35 goals in 75 caps.

    very similar to Henry's. Mind u henry played a large portion of his 95 caps either as a midfielder or a withdrawn forward. Also none of Titi's goals was from the penalty spot, take away sheva's penalties and his record will look even worse.

    Oh before coming up with the usual 'ukraine are a mediocre team' excuse, Berbatov- the biggest flat track bully in the world- has got a an excellent record in a poor Bulgaria side.

    Pierre Littbarski wrote:If you think the player with the best range of attributes of any footballer since Cruyff is overrated then I don't know why you bother watching football.

    he's overrated coz he flopped at milan, newcastle, valencia, psv and had few decent seasons at barca but yet people seem to think of him as another maradonna.


    Pierre Littbarski wrote:He's still making a bigger impact on Group B than Henry - where were Henry's goals v Scotland and Italy scratch

    Laugh henry's got 1 in 2 versus italy. only played a game vs scotland and could have scored a hattrick against scotland if he played in the return leg considering the number of chances France created.

    Pierre Littbarski wrote:As for Chevanton - well I appreciate skill, charisma, improvisation, how could an Henry fan ever understand that ?


    no one else sees those things in shitvanton pierre. he's shite, period. not good enough to make the bench at sevilla.

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