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Pierre Littbarski
The Pröfessör
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Kimbo
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    Louis van Gaal v Arsene Wenger

    Poll

    van Gaal or Wenger

    [ 10 ]
    Louis van Gaal v Arsene Wenger Bar_left43%Louis van Gaal v Arsene Wenger Bar_right [43%] 
    [ 13 ]
    Louis van Gaal v Arsene Wenger Bar_left57%Louis van Gaal v Arsene Wenger Bar_right [57%] 

    Total Votes: 23
    Poll closed
    Machiavel
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    Post by Machiavel Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:57 pm

    Both have a lot in common :

    i.e. Developing young players through the ranks and playing Football how it should , both have won everything they challenged for .. apart from Wenger has not won the European Cup but he went to a Final which sort of counts as a success. Both have different personalities , one does it 'his way' while the other seems to be cool , calm and collected.

    So who is the 'Master' when it comes to developing + playing the beautiful game ??
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    Post by Fey Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:59 pm

    ...no they dont!
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    Post by BoBo Vieri 32 Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:14 pm

    ive never thought as highly of Van Gaal since hollands world cup campaign (or lack of) in 2002
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    Post by Machiavel Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:17 pm

    BoBo Vieri wrote:ive never thought as highly of Van Gaal since hollands world cup campaign (or lack of) in 2002

    I was thinking more of his success before that when he made his name ..
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    Post by Machiavel Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:26 pm

    The life and times of Louis Van Gaal

    (soccernet : 31/10/07) - Ernst Bouwes

    Back in August, on one of the hottest Saturdays for nearly a year, some of the finest talent in the west of Holland presented themselves in Alkmaar. Standing on the immaculately trimmed pitch of the new sports centre at the start of the new season were the AZ youth team and their Ajax counterparts.

    The real football aficionados, who had shunned one of the last opportunities to catch a tan on the nearby beach, were in good spirits, especially those who favoured AZ as the club had invested heavily to make that last step to glory. Glory came so close last season, but ultimately it eluded them in the cruellest way. Yet, this could be their year.

    Before the kick-off some of the eagle-eyed punters nudged their neighbours as they recognised a couple of baseball-capped blokes leaning over the fence by one of the corner flags. Ryan Donk and his chum Haris Medunjanin had arrived early to catch the first half of the game before jumping on the team bus to travel to Arnhem where they were to play Vitesse that night.

    Donk came through the youth academy at Ajax and has been a regular in the starting eleven since his arrival from RKC Waalwijk last year to replace Joris Mathijssen. In the summer he was a member of the Dutch squad which won the European Under-21 Championships. Some compare him to Frank Rijkaard.

    Also in the crowd that afternoon was Louis van Gaal, the manager, who is not pleased that 'Donk is on his legs in the scorching sun just hours before a game'. The immediate punishment is a one-match suspension so Donk found himself on the sidelines that night in Arnhem.

    While Ajax's new multi-million strikeforce can't find a hole in the defence of the host side Donk's replacement, Milano Koenders, made a mistake, and so the team, new arrivals in the Dutch top four, endured their first defeat.

    Since that night AZ have gathered only eight points from seven league games and stumbled embarrassingly over the first hurdle in the cup at first division Cambuur Leeuwarden. Just another turning point in the indescribable career of Van Gaal.

    Louis van Gaal started his coaching career as an assistant at AZ in 1987 only to be fired within a year after a player rebellion. Ajax took him on as a youth coach while he was working for his training licence and was promoted to assistant under Leo Beenhakker two years later.

    In September 1991, Beenhakker skipped to Real Madrid leaving chairman Michael van Praag fuming as his coach had just signed an extension to his contract and the future of the club apparently depended on the experience of the former national manager. As most competent trainers were unavailable Van Praag put Van Gaal in charge for the time being. The rest we know.

    In his first season, Van Gaal brought the UEFA Cup home and went on to add the Champions League, three Dutch titles and a World Club Cup to the trophy cabinet over the next five years with virtually no money to spend.

    At his next club, Barcelona, he underestimated the need for smooth relations with the local tabloids. Speaking Spanish with the locals can be a boon, but when one gets angry as easily as Van Gaal an inability to express oneself in another language becomes a problem.

    When news was slow the best way to fill the daily sports papers was to oppose the trainer at his press conference and report the inevitable rant that followed. Not understanding Spanish at the right moment might have made his life much easier, but that is not what Van Gaal is like.

    Secondly, his ideas to put his tactics before players did not go down very well with the superstars at Camp Nou. Telling World Player of the Year Rivaldo to stick to his position on the left wing or make space for others instead of roaming around freely, which the Brazilian took as his privilege, may well have been integral to his tactical plan but was not the best way to survive in the Catalonian quagmire.

    And replacing those superstars with a busload of former Ajax players did not endear Van Gaal very much to the Socios. When he did not win the Spanish title for the third year in a row his time was up.

    In 2000 he left Spain to take on his childhood dream to coach the Dutch national team at a World Cup. To his surprise his squad took international breaks as leisure time and an opportunity to catch up with old friends instead of training seriously on patterns and playing style.

    Van Gaal's grand ambitions on the training pitch flew in the face of the indifferent squad members, who wanted to qualify as effortlessly as possible. The mutual irritation resulted in the only absence of a Dutch team on an international tournament over the last twenty years.

    With a speech of fourty-five minutes, live on television, Van Gaal quit the national post to return for another disastrous year at Barcelona and an ill-fated time as technical director at Ajax, where he started the press conference of his tenure with a poem, declaring his love for the club.

    In his second year he wrote an ambitious masterplan which included the objective to reach the semi-finals of the Champions League once every five years. Trainer Ronald Koeman opposed that, after which Van Gaal decided his motivation differed too much from the rest of the technical staff and quit.

    In 2005 he took the coaching job at AZ. His predecessor Co Adriaanse had done wonders at the club, but has been known to squeeze all the potential out of his teams like lemons and to leave before they invariably implode.

    Many felt there was little progress to be made at AZ, but Van Gaal managed to bring the team to a consistently higher level. After two years at the helm he came within seconds of the Dutch title last May. But somehow this tragedy may have come around by his own making.

    During the season he insisted his team could not be considered as favourites for the title as they were working for the long run. However, this had a negative effect on his players who seemingly could not believe in the championship was within their grasp even when it was staring them right in the face.

    Before the new season Van Gaal told his top scorer, and Dutch international, Danny Koevermans that he would have to take a back seat this season as the new signings would prevail. Koevermans could not take the strikeforce to the next level, the Champions League, as the manager explained.

    At that time AZ hoped to sign Brazilian topscorer Afonso Alves from Heerenveen, along with a couple of younger talents. Alves did not come, while the designated talents failed to make an impact.

    A disgruntled Koevermans left Alkmaar for PSV, where he now plays in the Champions League. AZ are languishing in the lower regions of the league as they are having so much trouble finding the net. Talk of the top four has evaporated.

    Louis van Gaal does not have to worry about his job, though. His contract expires in 2010 and he might end his career in Alkmaar. There is one exception though.

    He still has his eyes firmly on the World Cup, so when one of the top nations comes for him to coach them in South Africa in 2010 AZ is obliged to let him go. Van Gaal has even named the five relevant countries: Germany, England, Spain, Argentina and Holland. Argentina is his first choice. As a columnist I can't wait to see that happen.
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    Post by Tweesus Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:55 pm

    Are we supposed to vote for Van Gaal?
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    Post by Since 1888 Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:57 pm

    I would take vGaal over Wenger anytime just for comedy value.
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    Post by Kimbo Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:57 pm

    Tweedle wrote:Are we supposed to vote for Van Gaal?

    Yes. I voted for the Arse though.
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    Post by Tweesus Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:58 pm

    Kimbo wrote:
    Tweedle wrote:Are we supposed to vote for Van Gaal?

    Yes. I voted for the Arse though.

    What the hell is going on in that avater of yours kimbo? Nasty Smile
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    Post by L r d hAsta LueGo Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:04 pm

    Voted Wenger, i never liked or rated Van Gaal since his barca days. I hope he actually did manage barca and i aint thinking of someone else <Ale>
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    Post by Kimbo Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:09 pm

    Tweedle wrote:
    Kimbo wrote:
    Tweedle wrote:Are we supposed to vote for Van Gaal?

    Yes. I voted for the Arse though.

    What the hell is going on in that avater of yours kimbo? Nasty Smile

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    Post by The Pröfessör Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:12 pm

    wenger - genius.
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    Post by Since 1888 Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:16 pm

    Wenger over vGaal? Why would an underachieving coach be rated over an CL winning coach?

    For all his flaws vGaal has developed the great Ajax side of 1995 and improved the likes of Seedorf, Davids, Overmars, deBoer and others massivly.

    He is a lousy national coach though, must too ambitious.
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    Post by Fey Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:20 pm

    Van Gaal is a big ass..but he actually makes youth players better. Wenger is just a guy with half a braincell that buys the best foreign talents that are out there, and if one turns into a starplayer he gets the credit!
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    Post by Machiavel Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:21 pm

    Tweedle wrote:Are we supposed to vote for Van Gaal?

    No. Not many know about his achievements that's why i posted that article .. its a fun comparaisons , just wondered both have similarities who has made the bigger impact.
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    Post by BoBo Vieri 32 Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:29 pm

    Since 1888 wrote:Wenger over vGaal? Why would an underachieving coach be rated over an CL winning coach?

    For all his flaws vGaal has developed the great Ajax side of 1995 and improved the likes of Seedorf, Davids, Overmars, deBoer and others massivly.

    He is a lousy national coach though, must too ambitious.

    out of interest, what actually went wrong in 2002? what kind of team/formation did he play?
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    Post by Kimbo Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:31 pm

    van Gaal seems quite naive and reckless in his tactics to me sometimes, that's why Herr Wenger gets the nod.
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    Post by The Pröfessör Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:33 pm

    Since 1888 wrote:Wenger over vGaal? Why would an underachieving coach be rated over an CL winning coach?

    For all his flaws vGaal has developed the great Ajax side of 1995 and improved the likes of Seedorf, Davids, Overmars, deBoer and others massivly.

    He is a lousy national coach though, must too ambitious.

    overachieving u mean.
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    Post by Machiavel Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:34 pm

    Kimbo wrote:van Gaal seems quite naive and reckless in his tactics to me sometimes, that's why Herr Wenger gets the nod.

    Naive ?

    He went to places like the Bernabeu , Munich Olympic Stadium and San Siro and wanted to beat these teams by playing attacking fluid football .. and he succeed (well he drew against Bayern Munich)
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    Post by Since 1888 Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:37 pm

    BoBo Vieri wrote:
    Since 1888 wrote:Wenger over vGaal? Why would an underachieving coach be rated over an CL winning coach?

    For all his flaws vGaal has developed the great Ajax side of 1995 and improved the likes of Seedorf, Davids, Overmars, deBoer and others massivly.

    He is a lousy national coach though, must too ambitious.

    out of interest, what actually went wrong in 2002? what kind of team/formation did he play?

    In my mind he was trying to play way too beautifull which was kind of impossible since they had much to little time together training to actually make an own system.

    @agooner: so you agree Arsenal is worse in quality than Chelsea and ManUnt?
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    Post by Kimbo Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:42 pm

    Raifael wrote:
    Kimbo wrote:van Gaal seems quite naive and reckless in his tactics to me sometimes, that's why Herr Wenger gets the nod.

    Naive ?

    He went to places like the Bernabeu , Munich Olympic Stadium and San Siro and wanted to beat these teams by playing attacking fluid football .. and he succeed (well he drew against Bayern Munich)

    I'm basing it on his time at his current club AZ, in the waffa last year he kept playing ridiculously attacking formations and let in alot of goals. Talking of AZ he still hasn't won anything with them despite, so i've been told, spending a fair amount of money.
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    Post by Pierre Littbarski Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:42 pm

    If we are comparing van Gaal's Ajax to Wenger's Arsenal then the Dutchman gets the nod because they were better and also more entertaining.

    Wenger is a coward and hides behind the excuse that his team is young.

    There's nothing that Wenger would hate more than for a rich owner to come in and offer him the chance to sign World class 28 year olds to play with his youngsters because then he would have no excuse for not winning.

    van Gaal won UEFA and CL finals - Wenger lost UEFA and CL finals.
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    Post by BoBo Vieri 32 Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:51 pm

    Pierre Littbarski wrote:If we are comparing van Gaal's Ajax to Wenger's Arsenal then the Dutchman gets the nod because they were better and also more entertaining.

    Wenger is a coward and hides behind the excuse that his team is young.

    There's nothing that Wenger would hate more than for a rich owner to come in and offer him the chance to sign World class 28 year olds to play with his youngsters because then he would have no excuse for not winning.

    van Gaal won UEFA and CL finals - Wenger lost UEFA and CL finals.

    not necessarily that, but Van Gaal made his system work in Europe, he won the CL by playing attractive football, and did consistantly well in that competition.

    Wengers tactics flopped in europe more often than not, that is until 2006 when he reached the final but didnt play particularly attractive football.
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    Post by Machiavel Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:52 pm

    Kimbo wrote:
    Raifael wrote:
    Kimbo wrote:van Gaal seems quite naive and reckless in his tactics to me sometimes, that's why Herr Wenger gets the nod.

    Naive ?

    He went to places like the Bernabeu , Munich Olympic Stadium and San Siro and wanted to beat these teams by playing attacking fluid football .. and he succeed (well he drew against Bayern Munich)

    I'm basing it on his time at his current club AZ, in the waffa last year he kept playing ridiculously attacking formations and let in alot of goals. Talking of AZ he still hasn't won anything with them despite, so i've been told, spending a fair amount of money.

    Compare that with his reign at Ajax never spent much money = developed a top side , maybe this is where hes going wrong at the moment Rolling Eyes
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    Post by Kimbo Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:59 pm

    Raifael wrote:
    Kimbo wrote:
    Raifael wrote:
    Kimbo wrote:van Gaal seems quite naive and reckless in his tactics to me sometimes, that's why Herr Wenger gets the nod.

    Naive ?

    He went to places like the Bernabeu , Munich Olympic Stadium and San Siro and wanted to beat these teams by playing attacking fluid football .. and he succeed (well he drew against Bayern Munich)

    I'm basing it on his time at his current club AZ, in the waffa last year he kept playing ridiculously attacking formations and let in alot of goals. Talking of AZ he still hasn't won anything with them despite, so i've been told, spending a fair amount of money.

    Compare that with his reign at Ajax never spent much money = developed a top side , maybe this is where hes going wrong at the moment Rolling Eyes

    But Ajax have always been able to take their pick of youngsters in Holland have they not? It's not like he had big spending rivals to compete with.
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    Post by Since 1888 Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:02 pm

    Almost all the players from the 1995 team came from the youth teams. Really impressive. ok

    Except Danny Blind who came from Sparta ofcourse.
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    Post by Machiavel Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:03 pm

    Kimbo wrote:
    Raifael wrote:
    Kimbo wrote:
    Raifael wrote:
    Kimbo wrote:van Gaal seems quite naive and reckless in his tactics to me sometimes, that's why Herr Wenger gets the nod.

    Naive ?

    He went to places like the Bernabeu , Munich Olympic Stadium and San Siro and wanted to beat these teams by playing attacking fluid football .. and he succeed (well he drew against Bayern Munich)

    I'm basing it on his time at his current club AZ, in the waffa last year he kept playing ridiculously attacking formations and let in alot of goals. Talking of AZ he still hasn't won anything with them despite, so i've been told, spending a fair amount of money.

    Compare that with his reign at Ajax never spent much money = developed a top side , maybe this is where hes going wrong at the moment Rolling Eyes

    But Ajax have always been able to take their pick of youngsters in Holland have they not? It's not like he had big spending rivals to compete with.

    There are some restrictions , Ajax normally get players from around the Amsterdam / North Holland region i.e. Edgar Davids , Patrick Kluivert , Clarence Seedorf , Frank de Boer ..

    Its unimaginable today a team could have 9-10 players from their Youth team .. sadly.

    IMO Seedorf is the best player to have made his debut aged 16.
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    Post by BoBo Vieri 32 Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:10 pm

    Raifael wrote:
    Kimbo wrote:
    Raifael wrote:
    Kimbo wrote:
    Raifael wrote:
    Kimbo wrote:van Gaal seems quite naive and reckless in his tactics to me sometimes, that's why Herr Wenger gets the nod.

    Naive ?

    He went to places like the Bernabeu , Munich Olympic Stadium and San Siro and wanted to beat these teams by playing attacking fluid football .. and he succeed (well he drew against Bayern Munich)

    I'm basing it on his time at his current club AZ, in the waffa last year he kept playing ridiculously attacking formations and let in alot of goals. Talking of AZ he still hasn't won anything with them despite, so i've been told, spending a fair amount of money.

    Compare that with his reign at Ajax never spent much money = developed a top side , maybe this is where hes going wrong at the moment Rolling Eyes

    But Ajax have always been able to take their pick of youngsters in Holland have they not? It's not like he had big spending rivals to compete with.

    There are some restrictions , Ajax normally get players from around the Amsterdam / North Holland region i.e. Edgar Davids , Patrick Kluivert , Clarence Seedorf , Frank de Boer ..

    Its unimaginable today a team could have 9-10 players from their Youth team .. sadly.

    IMO Seedorf is the best player to have made his debut aged 16.

    Seedorf is still only 31! Been around for ages!
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    Post by Deluded F*ck™ Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:14 pm

    Pierre Littbarski wrote:If we are comparing van Gaal's Ajax to Wenger's Arsenal then the Dutchman gets the nod because they were better and also more entertaining.

    Wenger is a coward and hides behind the excuse that his team is young.

    There's nothing that Wenger would hate more than for a rich owner to come in and offer him the chance to sign World class 28 year olds to play with his youngsters because then he would have no excuse for not winning.

    van Gaal won UEFA and CL finals - Wenger lost UEFA and CL finals.

    ok Ale
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    Post by Machiavel Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:15 pm

    @ BoBo Vieri

    The man is a absolute Legend , so happy to see him lift another European Cup this year .. he was 18 when he won his 1st one so he knows what success is , van Gaal has been a big influence in his career. About time he was recognised by winning the Midfielder of the Year award. And it is consistency that is the key .. the influence of the coach who developed the player and see how far the player can go.

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