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    Walcott developing the arrogance of Henry

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    Sheffield gunner


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    Walcott developing the arrogance of Henry - Page 3 Empty Re: Walcott developing the arrogance of Henry

    Post by Sheffield gunner Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:09 pm

    Christ the Redeemer wrote:
    Roger Hunt wrote:Hardly.

    I never said France were dependent on Henry. Likewise Italy have never been dependent on Totti. The fact is that Henry was there and did participate in the 98 campaign.

    Does that mean that Theo Walcott is a World Cup quarterfinalist? After all, he 'participated' in WC2006 for quarter finalists England...

    In fairness, Henry's situation at the '98 World Cup was considerably different to Walcott's at the '06 World Cup. Fair enough if you want to argue that Henry didn't make a significant contribution, but he did score three goals, scored a vital penalty in the quarter-final penalty shoot-out against Italy having played nearly an hour of the match, played for an hour in the semi-final, and was set to come on in the final until Desailly's red card forced a tactical change. It isn't as if he got twenty minute run outs in the group stages and nothing else, or like Walcott made no contribution in terms of playing time. Anyway, these Henry arguments have been done to death.
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    Post by The-Frank-Tavern Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:10 pm

    Sheffield gunner wrote:Anyway, these Henry arguments have been done to death.
    ok
    lrdsucksgoats
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    Post by lrdsucksgoats Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:14 pm

    El Gaffer™ wrote:
    When Henry's the bigest ego in the house, and is expexcted to lead, he doesn't. Hence Arsenal finished 4th twice, and France so nearly didn't make it to the last WC.

    Not to mention the World Cup in 2002, when Henry showered himself in him own particular brand of glory...
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    Post by lrdsucksgoats Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:22 pm

    [quote="The Real Martin Troll"]
    Christ the Redeemer wrote:
    Roger Hunt wrote:Well Thierry played for France in EC2000 final which they won, didn't he?

    EC<WC, obviously

    Both have played in 1 EC and 1 WC- the result irrelevant since neither player can say they were the dominant figure in either 2000 or 2006, and the games were won on the finest of margins. So its no more than a draw in terms of International achievements

    Except that Totti was a starting member of a side that won the World Cup, and Henry was not. And what about 2002? Henry gets sent off for a terrible challenge largely born out of his arrogant disbelief that a team like Senegal could be beating his own country. That was classic Henry.

    At least Totti waited until the knockout stages before disgracing himself.

    And although he wasnt played in the 98 final he was France's top scorer for the tournament I believe.

    As you well know, because I outlined all this the last time we had this debate, he didn't play in the final, didn't start any knockout games after the round of 16, scored 3 goals against nothing teams, none of which mattered.

    To make out that France winning in 98 was at all dependent on Henry is just Cr@p. It's the classic Henry hypester argument, and it's always been Cr@p.

    No, he wasnt. But equally, Totti was not instrumental in leading Italy to this World Cup final. No one can claim the Italians won the 2006 World Cup because of Francesco Totti.

    They can claim it, it wouldn't be true though. Totti only played an hour of the final, as I remember. Still an hour more than Henry's played for a World Cup final winning team.

    And Totti has never been a success in the EPL Wink

    He's never played there, so there's no comparison to be made. Henry, however, has played in Serie A, where he was a massive flop, at the same time as Totti was playing in the Serie A, where he's been a massive success.

    What a ludicrous argument. Totti is an Italian, playing in his own surroundings for his home town club and in a league with a style he- as an Italian - would have been brought up with throughout his career. Comparing this with Henry half season as Juve playing in a foreign country for a new club in unfamiliar surroundings is just scraping the bowls of a very deep barrell.

    Henry only got half a season because he was so terrible. And at that time, Juve were a considerably better team than Roma, which meant he had more help than Totti from his teammates but still could not muster even the slightest bit of scintillating form.

    Henry was a success in his own league with Monaco -winning titles and progressing to the latter stage of the European Cup. If you are going to make such one weighted comparisons, at least make it pound for pound

    The comparison was in the same league at the same time. There's no fairer comparison.

    Try again, hypester.

    lol!


    I'm hyping no-one. I'm taking issue with your claim that Totti has achieved nothing that Henry hasn't also achieved. You remember, the claim you made that you then contradicted in your following post, which you've completely skipped over in this latest response because you were so embarrassed?

    Tell me, why should I bother with someone so ineffective at arguing? I know, because Neighbours isn't on for another 13 minutes and I'm not in the mood to read a book or masturbate. So you'll have to do, I suppose.
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    Post by The-Frank-Tavern Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:27 pm

    Christ the Redeemer wrote:The comparison was in the same league at the same time. There's no fairer comparison.
    conveniently before henry showed another league how good he was, are we now saying sheva is [email]cr@p[/email] cos when he came to england he was no good
    Isco Benny
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    Walcott developing the arrogance of Henry - Page 3 Empty Re: Walcott developing the arrogance of Henry

    Post by Isco Benny Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:28 pm

    Christ the Redeemer wrote:
    The Real Martin Troll wrote:
    Christ the Redeemer wrote:
    The Real Martin Troll wrote:
    My argument is that if Totti is deemed to be one of the best players in the World which he regularly is, then so should Henry, since Totti has not achieved anything more that Henry hasnt done himself.

    Except play in a World Cup final for the winning side. And be a success in Serie A.

    So in fact, your argument is pretty redundant because it is so obviously incorrect.

    No. You think its incorrect because you are incapable of seeing anything from your own point of view.

    Why not just scream, a la Tweeds, You're biased!!!!!!?

    It's just as ineffective, and makes you look just as stupid.

    Totti has played in 1 Euro final - which he lost,
    and 1 World Cup final, which he won

    Henry has played in 1 Euro final - which he won, and 1 World cup final, which he lost.

    Thus Totti has achieved what Henry has not. Contrary to your argument.

    And you can throw in the 1998 World Cup final aswell when Henry was in the World Cup winning squad. How is that less of an achievement that Totti's international record?

    Why don't we throw in Totti's contribution to Juventus winning the CL in the 90s since he had about as much impact on that as Henry had on France winning WC98...?

    Totti has never played outside of Serie A. He has been a success in his home league.

    Nonetheless, it's the only league both players have played in. Therefore the only league where a direct comparison can be made.

    Henry was a success in his home league, part of the Monaco side that beat Man United and reached the semi finals of the CL in 1997, a semi final of the CL he also played in for Arsenal in 2006. Totti has never played in Europe past the Quarter finals in comparison.

    This has far more to do with the clubs they've played for, and luck, than the individual talents of the two players.

    Henry was also an unmitigated success in a league abroad- the EPL, top scorer for many seasons. Totti has never tested himself abroad, so we can neither tell whether he would have failed - like Henry did at Juve, or succeeded, like he did at Arsenal.

    Or failed, like he has at Barcelona so far...

    So, please tell me how the argument that Totti has achieved more than Henry is incorrect, oh wise one?


    That wasn't your argument, dickwad. You said:
    since Totti has not achieved anything more that Henry hasnt done himself.

    Since you can't even keep track of your own arguments, this is pointless. When you can consistently maintain a position then maybe you'll get why that position is wrong. Until then, I'll leave you to wallow in your own $h!t.

    The fact that you've resorted to name calling and discrediting my argument with a final derogatory statement provides the upteenth example of how totally inept you are at holding a discussion at anything nearing an adult level. I pity your friends, if you have any. Which I doubt. You're a joke. An internet joke worthy of sharing round via email Laugh ok

    And do me a favour, please take this post, neatly slice it up into little quoted blocks - as is your privvy - and spend the next 10 minutes of your life proving what a sad little intellectually stunted c**t of a man you are. As I have a feeling that there might be a few newcomers on here who have yet to discover ok Ale
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    Post by lrdsucksgoats Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:33 pm

    The Real Martin Troll wrote:The fact that you've resorted to name calling and discrediting my argument with a final derogatory statement provides the upteenth example of how totally inept you are at holding a discussion at anything nearing an adult level. I pity your friends, if you have any. Which I doubt. You're a joke. An internet joke worthy of sharing round via email Laugh ok

    Might I remind you at this stage that you made this a personal battle, so trying to take the moral ground now I've outdone you on the insult front is a pathetic strategy.

    And do me a favour, please take this post, neatly slice it up into little quoted blocks - as is your privvy - and spend the next 10 minutes of your life proving what a sad little intellectually stunted c**t of a man you are. As I have a feeling that there might be a few newcomers on here who have yet to discover ok Ale

    Thanks for proving my point. Look over this thread again, see if you can work out where you went wrong...
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    Post by Isco Benny Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:50 pm

    Christ the Redeemer wrote:
    The Real Martin Troll wrote:The fact that you've resorted to name calling and discrediting my argument with a final derogatory statement provides the upteenth example of how totally inept you are at holding a discussion at anything nearing an adult level. I pity your friends, if you have any. Which I doubt. You're a joke. An internet joke worthy of sharing round via email Laugh ok

    Might I remind you at this stage that you made this a personal battle, so trying to take the moral ground now I've outdone you on the insult front is a pathetic strategy.

    And do me a favour, please take this post, neatly slice it up into little quoted blocks - as is your privvy - and spend the next 10 minutes of your life proving what a sad little intellectually stunted c**t of a man you are. As I have a feeling that there might be a few newcomers on here who have yet to discover ok Ale

    Thanks for proving my point. Look over this thread again, see if you can work out where you went wrong...

    I havent gone wrong anywhere thanks. I was initially having what I thought was a fairly adult discussion with you before you resorted to calling me a dickwad and allowing me to wallow in my own $h!t (which Im grateful for by the way)

    I simply have better things to be doing on here then getting lectured by some internet nerd who gets off on dissecting other people's opinions and then is totally incapable of using either normal/funny banter or balanced arguments as disputing tools, but instead feels the only way he can stamp his supposed intellectual superiority is through responses which are neither funny, clever or indeed amicable.

    As I said, you're an onrunning joke <Ale>
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    Post by Pierre Littbarski Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:35 pm

    Henry was France's top scorer with 3 at WC '98.

    The only problem is that he scored in the Group phases v the footballing superpowers of Saudi Arabia and South Africa (and one of the goals he was credited with v SA was an O.G. by one of my all time fav Watford players Rolling Eyes Pierre Issa).

    Henry's 1st touch was alright he didn't have great technique hence such an erratic finisher and was over relient on physical qualities.

    The prem is/was a very physical end to end game when he was in his prime.

    He did have an excellent football brain* but the feet just weren't good enough to match.

    Its interesting to here someone put Ronaldo in the same bracket as Messi/Ibra as a player of superior technical ability.

    Ronaldo IMO is the Prem's natural heir to Henry in that he is tall, superfast and has decent footballing ability but no more than that.

    Like Henry - the key to dealing with Ronaldo is the starting position of the opponents when they lose the ball to Man U/Portugal.

    When he is able to receive the ball with no one within a 10 yard radius of him (Roma at OT) he is going to be unplayable but if you watch numerous Ashley Cole performances + one from Wayne Bridge in FA Cup final and Milan at San Siro - if players are tight on him when he receives the ball and they continue to keep their eye on the ball despite all the stepovers he doesn't have outstanding dribbling ability in tight spaces like a Ribery, Joaquin or Govou (not suggesting for a minute that these are better players - just better dribblers and comfortably so).


    * On the subject of footballing brains - I was always against this man's regular inclusion in England's starting XI from such an early age (and feel vindicated in the short term by a. his lack of end product, b. the superior performances when a target man like Crouch or Heskey has been employed and c. The Carvalho-bollock-stamping incident) but there is no denying that this is one of the best brains in the business:

    Walcott developing the arrogance of Henry - Page 3 Rooney



    ** Walcott is $h!t
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    Post by The-Frank-Tavern Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:56 pm

    Pierre Littbarski wrote:Henry was France's top scorer with 3 at WC '98.

    The only problem is that he scored in the Group phases v the footballing superpowers of Saudi Arabia and South Africa (and one of the goals he was credited with v SA was an O.G. by one of my all time fav Watford players Rolling Eyes Pierre Issa).

    Henry's 1st touch was alright he didn't have great technique hence such an erratic finisher and was over relient on physical qualities.

    The prem is/was a very physical end to end game when he was in his prime.

    He did have an excellent football brain* but the feet just weren't good enough to match.

    Its interesting to here someone put Ronaldo in the same bracket as Messi/Ibra as a player of superior technical ability.

    Ronaldo IMO is the Prem's natural heir to Henry in that he is tall, superfast and has decent footballing ability but no more than that.

    Like Henry - the key to dealing with Ronaldo is the starting position of the opponents when they lose the ball to Man U/Portugal.

    When he is able to receive the ball with no one within a 10 yard radius of him (Roma at OT) he is going to be unplayable but if you watch numerous Ashley Cole performances + one from Wayne Bridge in FA Cup final and Milan at San Siro - if players are tight on him when he receives the ball and they continue to keep their eye on the ball despite all the stepovers he doesn't have outstanding dribbling ability in tight spaces like a Ribery, Joaquin or Govou (not suggesting for a minute that these are better players - just better dribblers and comfortably so).


    * On the subject of footballing brains - I was always against this man's regular inclusion in England's starting XI from such an early age (and feel vindicated in the short term by a. his lack of end product, b. the superior performances when a target man like Crouch or Heskey has been employed and c. The Carvalho-bollock-stamping incident) but there is no denying that this is one of the best brains in the business:

    Walcott developing the arrogance of Henry - Page 3 Rooney



    ** Walcott is $h!t
    quality post pierre
    lrdsucksgoats
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    Post by lrdsucksgoats Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:03 pm

    The Real Martin Troll wrote:
    I havent gone wrong anywhere thanks. I was initially having what I thought was a fairly adult discussion with you before you resorted to calling me a dickwad and allowing me to wallow in my own $h!t (which Im grateful for by the way)

    TRMT before I insulted him wrote:
    No. You think its incorrect because you are incapable of seeing anything from your own point of view.

    Now, assuming that you didn't mean this literally, but meant that I was incapable of seeing anything from other than my own point of view, you resorted to insults before I did. So by trying to claim the moral high ground now due to me insulting you makes you a hypocrite.

    That's what I meant when I suggested you re-read the thread to see where you went wrong. You could, of course, admit that you were wrong, that you got aggressive and insulting before I did, and that your accusations are way out of line. But you won't. Because you lack the character to do so. And you claim I'm a joke...
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    Post by lrdsucksgoats Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:07 pm

    Pierre Littbarski wrote:Henry was France's top scorer with 3 at WC '98.

    The only problem is that he scored in the Group phases v the footballing superpowers of Saudi Arabia and South Africa (and one of the goals he was credited with v SA was an O.G. by one of my all time fav Watford players Rolling Eyes Pierre Issa).

    So you're saying his actual goal tally for the tournament is two, the same as Lillian Thuram?

    From now on I'm going to vote for Thuram over Henry in the 'best striker in the world' threads. I mean, he was played well out of position at rightback but still managed as many goals as the superstar, world class Thierry...
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    Post by robert Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:29 pm

    Nice to see we have gone from Walcott to Henry.
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    Post by lrdsucksgoats Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:33 pm

    robert wrote:Nice to see we have gone from Walcott to Henry.

    Henry was mentioned in the title of the thread...
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    Post by robert Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:36 pm

    Christ the Redeemer wrote:
    robert wrote:Nice to see we have gone from Walcott to Henry.

    Henry was mentioned in the title of the thread...

    Ok let me be more precise, nice to see we have shifted the focus primarily off Walcott to Henry.

    Unlike many of the other threads we haave had here.
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    Post by lrdsucksgoats Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:38 pm

    robert wrote:
    Christ the Redeemer wrote:
    robert wrote:Nice to see we have gone from Walcott to Henry.

    Henry was mentioned in the title of the thread...

    Ok let me be more precise, nice to see we have shifted the focus primarily off Walcott to Henry.

    Unlike many of the other threads we haave had here.

    There isn't that much to say about Walcott. Boring lad, unspectacular player, uninteresting career in the game so far.

    Whereas you know there's always at least three pages of bitching and arguing to be had whenever Henry is mentioned...
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    Post by robert Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:41 pm

    Christ the Redeemer wrote:
    robert wrote:
    Christ the Redeemer wrote:
    robert wrote:Nice to see we have gone from Walcott to Henry.

    Henry was mentioned in the title of the thread...

    Ok let me be more precise, nice to see we have shifted the focus primarily off Walcott to Henry.

    Unlike many of the other threads we haave had here.

    There isn't that much to say about Walcott. Boring lad, unspectacular player, uninteresting career in the game so far.

    Whereas you know there's always at least three pages of bitching and arguing to be had whenever Henry is mentioned...

    I'll quite message boards if Walcott achieves the same status.
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    Post by Parks lives Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:22 pm

    The-Frankinsense-Tavern wrote:

    ** Walcott is $h!t
    quality post pierre[/quote]

    What about the Rooney part? Wink
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    Post by Roger Hunt Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:43 am

    [quote="Christ the Redeemer"]
    Roger Hunt wrote:
    And Henry was hardly a 'massive flop' - he was a young player who moved on quickly to another club. If you think otherwise, feel free to prove it - just don't try to do it with stats.

    Right, so stats can be used to prove a player is good, but not that he's bad?


    Try again, hypester.

    Nice that you can't see when someone's taking the mickey.

    You have often said that it's impossible to prove that Henry is a good player without using stats. I'm just asking you to prove that Totti is better without the use of stats.

    I don't accept your argument on the WC and EC - whilst Brazil and Argentina are missing, the overall standard of the rest of the participating teams is higher. If you want evidence, the last WC final was between to European countries.

    Henry = Totti.
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    Post by Tweesus Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:45 am

    Roger, go further and say the last four were all European!

    Portugal, Italy, France and Germany
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    Post by lrdsucksgoats Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:12 pm

    The tournament was held in Europe. It's exceptionally rare for teams to do well in the World cup when it's held outside their continent.


    As I'm sure you both know.
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    Post by Tweesus Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:16 pm

    Well, South Africa should be interesting. Firstly, the temperatures there will be comparable to in England in late Spring and cescondly, there's no time difference to adjust to.

    For England, the conditions should be perfect.
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    Post by lrdsucksgoats Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:29 pm

    Tweesus of Nazareth wrote:Well, South Africa should be interesting. Firstly, the temperatures there will be comparable to in England in late Spring and cescondly, there's no time difference to adjust to.

    For England, the conditions should be perfect.

    For England, the conditions in Germany should have been perfect. But we were $h!t. So I'm expecting little to no joy out of 2010.

    Maybe 2014, when Walcott's 25 and Rooney's 28, we'll have a chance.

    Wink bounce
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    Post by Tweesus Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:31 pm

    The temperatures in Germany weren't normal season temperatures though. They ranged from 28 to 36 degrees. In south Africa the temperatures will range from 18 to 25 degrees. It'll allow Gerrard and Lampard to play their natural end to end football-styleé game
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    Post by lrdsucksgoats Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:38 pm

    Tweesus of Nazareth wrote:The temperatures in Germany weren't normal season temperatures though. They ranged from 28 to 36 degrees. In south Africa the temperatures will range from 18 to 25 degrees. It'll allow Gerrard and Lampard to play their natural end to end football-styleé game

    You honestly think Lampard will still be playing for England in 3 1/2 years? I've got my doubts about Gerrard too, if his recent national form is anything to go by.

    On the other hand, it's not like we've got a surfeit of young central midfielders in this country.
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    Post by Tweesus Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:41 pm

    I was being slightly sarcastic but know knows. If we qualify for the Euro Champs, then at least make the quarters then I'm sure McLaren will still be the boss come WC 2010, and judging by his tactical nouse and (lack of) ability to drop big names, its perfectly possible we'll be playing with EXACTLY the same team that played in WC 2006.
    lrdsucksgoats
    lrdsucksgoats


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    Post by lrdsucksgoats Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:43 pm

    Tweesus of Nazareth wrote:I was being slightly sarcastic but know knows. If we qualify for the Euro Champs, then at least make the quarters then I'm sure McLaren will still be the boss come WC 2010, and judging by his tactical nouse and (lack of) ability to drop big names, its perfectly possible we'll be playing with EXACTLY the same team that played in WC 2006.

    Very Happy Very Happy

    You could well be right there. Even Beckham could still be in the team by then...
    The-Frank-Tavern
    The-Frank-Tavern


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    Post by The-Frank-Tavern Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:16 pm

    The-Frankinsense-Tavern wrote:i really don't see the big issue here, the kid is 18. can anybody honestly say they didn't make a mistake as an 18 year old? He made an error, but i bey tou pearce would rather see him wanting to take that pen and being annoyed that he couldn't rather than him shying away from it. ffs pearce knows the elation and the hurt from missing a crucial penalty, he'll admire the passion, disappointment and fact he wanted to take it. quiet word with theo (who prob realises he was wrong anyway) is all thats needed. prefer to have somebody wanting to take it than not for sure

    http://www.thefa.com/England/U21s/NewsAndFeatures/Postings/2007/11/EngU21svbulg_Pearce.htm

    Pearce continued: “Milly was selected to take penalties but credit to Theo. The way he was playing tonight I'm not surprised he wanted to put himself up to take it.

    “Consistently over the 90 minutes he got me on my feet and excited me. His appetite to play the game was there and he was a thorn in their side the whole game.

    “A year he ago he was a bit of an introvert and wouldn't want to put himself up for that but now all of a sudden he feels a big part of this team and wants to be a part of it.

    “But I'm pleased that Theo was desperate to get a goal for the team and it shows that he's coming out of himself.”
    Isco Benny
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    Post by Isco Benny Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:35 pm

    The most startling thing about that article is that Stuart Pearce refers to James Milner as "Milly" affraid
    Deluded F*ck™
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    Post by Deluded F*ck™ Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:06 pm

    200 Caps for Becks ?

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