Torres: La Liga overall is stronger than the Prem. League

Hasselbaink couldn't even get a professional contract in Holland : the Portuguese had to "discover" him

Calidad wrote:

Some who haven't done great in Italy, have come to the EPL and become stars

Aside from Henry and Bergkamp, not many. And they barely spent any time in Italy anyway.

Can understand possibly why Henry faile, but Bergkamp had all the attributes to be a success there so his failure is somewhat bemusing.

Calidad wrote:
I'd say the same for Fabregas. Whenever he plays for Spain he is usually the worst in the midfield (looks a level below tbh) but in the EPL he stands out. I think someone like Gerrard would stand out even more in La Liga.

Not just the EPL. He's stood out against a fair few CL teams as well.

Calidad wrote:Bergkamp, Henry, Arteta, Torres and perhaps even Zola have all done considerably better in the EPL than in other leagues (though Bergkamp was class in Holland)

Some who haven't done well; Sheva, Nando, Forlan, Kanoute (to a degree)

Cases of Sheva & Nando - both too old to adapt to a new league.

As for Rossi little early. Think he's scored about 10 goals which is good, but a few have been penalty's and he's hardly set the league alight. Can't really call Kanoue a failure in the EPL, and Rossi a huge success in the La Liga.

I'd say the same for Fabregas. Whenever he plays for Spain he is usually the worst in the midfield (looks a level below tbh) but in the EPL he stands out. I think someone like Gerrard would stand out even more in La Liga.

There are alot more Veron, Crespo ,Mutu,Morientes etc.

Mutu was hardly a failure. He left really as a result of drug/personal problems.

Crespo 20 in 49 (a lot of which weren't starts) pretty much identicial to his career average.

Veron was a categorical failure. Morientes too, though he hardly had any time to settle in, and as said before he was too old. Bit like Owen at Real in that regard.

To be honest I think much of it is down to cultural/personal problems, or just the phase of a career a player is going through. Sheva is undoubted class and have proven himself at all levels. Even take someone like Arteta, average for Rangers poor at Sociedad moves to Everton and is revitalised...down to talent? probably not? down to happiness? probably

I imagine it is much the same with Bergkamp and Henry, you can even look at Viera, Petit, Mark Hughes, or even Overmars who all failed to deliver their obvious talent once leaving the EPL.

I woudln't say Vieira has 'failed'.

He's won the season almost three times in a row!!!

Overmars and Petit did though. Its funny that generally its Arsenal layers that fail elsewhere. People should be forewarned about this so that they quit sniffing around our players

Tweedle wrote:I woudln't say Vieira has 'failed'.

He's won the season almost three times in a row!!!

Overmars and Petit did though. Its funny that generally its Arsenal layers that fail elsewhere. People should be forewarned about this so that they quit sniffing around our players

He's "failed" about as much as Veron did who ironically had his best ever socring record at Utd. Neither have performed as expected.

Calidad wrote:Mutu was hardly a failure. He left really as a result of drug/personal problems.

Crespo 20 in 49 (a lot of which weren't starts) pretty much identicial to his career average.

Veron was a categorical failure. Morientes too, though he hardly had any time to settle in, and as said before he was too old. Bit like Owen at Real in that regard.

To be honest I think much of it is down to cultural/personal problems, or just the phase of a career a player is going through. Sheva is undoubted class and have proven himself at all levels. Even take someone like Arteta, average for Rangers poor at Sociedad moves to Everton and is revitalised...down to talent? probably not? down to happiness? probably

I imagine it is much the same with Bergkamp and Henry, you can even look at Viera, Petit, Mark Hughes, or even Overmars who all failed to deliver their obvious talent once leaving the EPL.

sorry but owen at real was not old or a failure and played far better than morientes or veron

owen was sh¡te in spain imho

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:owen was sh¡te in spain imho

Well, then Crespo was shite in the EPL

there's prob an argument that neither had enough opportunity for me i'd say on balance i thought crespo earned the right to a few more chances, i didn't ever think owen had although not sure the managerial situation helped him

Owen's job was to score goals, like Crespo.

Owen managed 13 league goals in 35 games, but many were subs appearances.

Crespo managed 39 in 54 games - sure, its a better goals per game ratio, but minutes per goal, I'd imagine Owen did better.

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:there's prob an argument that neither had enough opportunity for me i'd say on balance i thought crespo earned the right to a few more chances, i didn't ever think owen had although not sure the managerial situation helped him

Yeah right, Owen got 14 in 20 starts, Raul got 12 in 41. The problem for Owen was that Raul was untouchable.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/stats?id=7930&cc=5739
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/stats?id=11817

I though Owen did pretty goddam well in his first and only season at Madrid. Statistically there is no argument.

Scored in an El Classico too. From a Beckham assist

Only in England.

Deutschlanders, feel free to share with us the last time a German midfielder created a goal for a German striker in the El Classico

Raul/RM its not even worth discussing, but then he deserved a bit of slack considering what he'd achieved for the club, and they are now reeping the rewards (fookers)

DS wrote:Sinama Pongolle.

Great shout. The perfect 4th striker

Kimbo wrote:

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:there's prob an argument that neither had enough opportunity for me i'd say on balance i thought crespo earned the right to a few more chances, i didn't ever think owen had although not sure the managerial situation helped him

Yeah right, Owen got 14 in 20 starts, Raul got 12 in 41. The problem for Owen was that Raul was untouchable.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/stats?id=7930&cc=5739
[url=http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/stats?id=11817

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/stats?id=11817[/quote[/url]]
His problem was that he doesnt have much talent imo. he made the attack worse and was sooo dependent on others creating for him.

There have been 8 occasions this season where an EPL team has scored 6 goals in a game compared with 1 last season - does this show that the gap is getting bigger between big 4 and the rest ?

Pierre Littbarski wrote:There have been 8 occasions this season where an EPL team has scored 6 goals in a game compared with 1 last season - does this show that the gap is getting bigger between big 4 and the rest ?

how many of these include Derby? i think the quality is improving actually with Pompey,Man city,Tottenham getting better and not selling their players. allthough i dont think they can actually close the gap which is a bit sad for the league.

Pierre Littbarski wrote:There have been 8 occasions this season where an EPL team has scored 6 goals in a game compared with 1 last season - does this show that the gap is getting bigger between big 4 and the rest ?

Not so much. Everton scored 6 against the Mackems, Spurs scored 7 against Reading, Villa scored 6 against Derby. None of those are top 4. I just think it comes down to Derby being shite mainly.

Pierre Littbarski wrote:There have been 8 occasions this season where an EPL team has scored 6 goals in a game compared with 1 last season - does this show that the gap is getting bigger between big 4 and the rest ?

Reading were the only side to score 6 or more goals last season. Confounding

Kimbo wrote:

Pierre Littbarski wrote:There have been 8 occasions this season where an EPL team has scored 6 goals in a game compared with 1 last season - does this show that the gap is getting bigger between big 4 and the rest ?

Not so much. Everton scored 6 against the Mackems, Spurs scored 7 against Reading, Villa scored 6 against Derby. None of those are top 4. I just think it comes down to Derby being shite mainly.

Portsmouth 7-4 Reading
Everton 7-1 Sunderland

Tottenham 6-4 Reading
Chelsea 6-1 Derby
Chelsea 6-0 Man City
Liverpool 6-0 Derby
Derby 0-6 Aston Villa
Man Utd 6-0 Newcastle

Newcastle 1-5 Man Utd
Tottenham 5-1 Fulham
Wigan 5-3 Blackburn
Arsenal 5-0 Derby
Derby 0-5 West Ham

5 out of 14 losses are Derby's fault.

Surely everton beating sunderland 7-1 (or tottenham scoring a lot etc) shows that the teams below the top 4 are improving. But in any case 1 off results don't say a lot, especially these high scores, because one team generally gives up after a few goals. Derby being involved many times shows just how poor they are.

There's the top 4, then there's a group of about 10 clubs that are all capable of a UEFA spot, then the bottom 6 are still shite.

The ten or so teams that are in the middle are all in the process of currently improving.

They all have money to spend, are financially sound and have a good fan base + some even have a sugar daddy