is BALLACK the biggest/best LEADER/captain in world football

no, ok then tell me another player who can fill this role so perfectly like ballack

Glenn hysen

thought you'd have gone for gerrard cotr

GERMANY

Hell yeah !

I think it's even safe to say he's the best LEADER of all time

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:thought you'd have gone for gerrard cotr

Is gerrard your pick frank ?

He's clearly no ballack, who is, but not bad all the same

are all Germans stuck in 2002 or is it just the ones who frequent this board?

Let me put you out of your misery, Ross and Rachel do get back together

Glenn Hysén wrote:are all Germans stuck in 2002 or is it just the ones who frequent this board?

Let me put you out of your misery, Ross and Rachel do get back together

And 2004 will be just like 2000....

Germany : No Wins

graeme murty

Glenn Hysén wrote:are all Germans stuck in 2002 or is it just the ones who frequent this board?

Let me put you out of your misery, Ross and Rachel do get back together

SPOILER

DD wrote:graeme murty

He will be if he finally leads Germany to a title. That's the benchmark Matthäus, Beckenbauer, Sammer and others have set. Ballack will never have the same undisputed leader status though, for various reasons discussed here already.

Talking about the current situation of world football though, not in historic terms. Historically speaking, Germany alone had a number of players who were better leaders. But good leaders have become rare these days, making this quality more exclusive, and therefore Ballack stand out more.

COTR wrote:

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:thought you'd have gone for gerrard cotr

Is gerrard your pick frank ?

He's clearly no ballack, who is, but not bad all the same

fack off i wouldn't have him captaining my 5 a side team, i'd want somebody who leads by example not one who decrys diving one minute only to do the exact same thing numerous times a season

borocooper wrote:

Glenn Hysén wrote:are all Germans stuck in 2002 or is it just the ones who frequent this board?

Let me put you out of your misery, Ross and Rachel do get back together

SPOILER

who the eff are ross and rachel?

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:

COTR wrote:

The-Frank-Tavern wrote:thought you'd have gone for gerrard cotr

Is gerrard your pick frank ?

He's clearly no ballack, who is, but not bad all the same

fack off i wouldn't have him captaining my 5 a side team, i'd want somebody who leads by example not one who decrys diving one minute only to do the exact same thing numerous times a season

Frank hates hypocrites

Axeslammer wrote:

Glenn Hysén wrote:are all Germans stuck in 2002 or is it just the ones who frequent this board?

Let me put you out of your misery, Ross and Rachel do get back together

And 2004 will be just like 2000....

Germany : No Wins

Who was leading Germany in those tournaments btw ?

You can't really blame Ballack for the 2000 disaster (he was far from being established in the team back then, let alone "lead" them), and it's unfair to put the blame on him for 2004, when he probably was the only player who actually performed. The 2004 team lacked quality / form in a lot of areas, especially in the attack, and Ballack could not compensate that on his own.

Ballack's greatest quality is that he is not a selfish player, and always puts the team first. He basically gave up playing as an attacking midfielder in 2006 for the sake of the team (-> less goals, less media hype, less ego boost). He also made a necessary tactical foul in the 2002 semis just after he had scored the winning goal, knowing that the booking prevented him from playing in the final.

There are not many players in world football who lead by example, and most importantly, put the team first. Too many egomaniacs around who confuse hollywood passes and ego-showoffs with leading.

blutgraetsche wrote:He will be if he finally leads Germany to a title. That's the benchmark Matthäus, Beckenbauer, Sammer and others have set. Ballack will never have the same undisputed leader status though, for various reasons discussed here already.

Talking about the current situation of world football though, not in historic terms. Historically speaking, Germany alone had a number of players who were better leaders. But good leaders have become rare these days, making this quality more exclusive, and therefore Ballack stand out more.

Do you mean because of his, er, mixed popularity in Germany Blut?

We all know (well, with one notable exception) that the "Führungsspieler" is getting to be a bit of an outdated irrelevance anyway, along with the "Vorstopper" and the "Libero", as Rapha Honigstein will tell you any day

Strange, reading the title of this thread I assumed it was by Otto...

blutgraetsche wrote:You can't really blame Ballack for the 2000 disaster (he was far from being established in the team back then, let alone "lead" them), and it's unfair to put the blame on him for 2004, when he probably was the only player who actually performed. The 2004 team lacked quality / form in a lot of areas, especially in the attack, and Ballack could not compensate that on his own.

Ballack's greatest quality is that he is not a selfish player, and always puts the team first. He basically gave up playing as an attacking midfielder in 2006 for the sake of the team (-> less goals, less media hype, less ego boost). He also made a necessary tactical foul in the 2002 semis just after he had scored the winning goal, knowing that the booking prevented him from playing in the final.

There are not many players in world football who lead by example, and most importantly, put the team first. Too many egomaniacs around who confuse hollywood passes and ego-showoffs with leading.

Anyone in mind here?

blutgraetsche wrote: He also made a necessary tactical foul in the 2002 semis just after he had scored the winning goal, knowing that the booking prevented him from playing in the final.

That foul was due to the incompetance of Ramelow, if he had even a shread of dignity he would of stopped the player himself when he began his run around the half way line. One can more or less say Germany had their chances in the final halved due to Ramelow being a selfish git. Also the blond twat didnt even have a yellow card unlike Ballack. Ballack also scored the goal after his yellow card if I am not mistaken.

Yes, the 'mixed popularity' (less 'mixed' these days, as Germans have learned to like / respect their Kapitän) and especially his rather introverted character and Eastern German background. Sammer had a similar background, but was far from being the calm and reflective guy Ballack is.

Germany might be a bit excessive and notorious when it comes to the famous 'leader' discussion, however, I disagree that leaders are obsolete in modern football. Leaders, or rather 'strong characters', is what the game probably misses most these days.

And no, of course I had nobody in mind.

Cricky wrote:
That foul was due to the incompetance of Ramelow, if he had even a shread of dignity he would of stopped the player himself when he began his run around the half way line. One can more or less say Germany had their chances in the final halved due to Ramelow being a selfish git. Also the blond twat didnt even have a yellow card unlike Ballack. Ballack also scored the goal after his yellow card if I am not mistaken.

You are not mistaken, you are right, I was wrong. Makes it even more remarkable IMHO. And Ramelow, oh well, I'm glad that the days of the likes of Ramelow are finally over in die Mannschaft.

Allez les rouges wrote:

blutgraetsche wrote:He will be if he finally leads Germany to a title. That's the benchmark Matthäus, Beckenbauer, Sammer and others have set. Ballack will never have the same undisputed leader status though, for various reasons discussed here already.

Talking about the current situation of world football though, not in historic terms. Historically speaking, Germany alone had a number of players who were better leaders. But good leaders have become rare these days, making this quality more exclusive, and therefore Ballack stand out more.

Do you mean because of his, er, mixed popularity in Germany Blut?

We all know (well, with one notable exception) that the "Führungsspieler" is getting to be a bit of an outdated irrelevance anyway, along with the "Vorstopper" and the "Libero", as Rapha Honigstein will tell you any day

..

Sangol said the same about Bayern

they did not need a leader, afer all France in 1998 had not had a leader either

which , of course, is BS

ZZ was a QUIET leader, but one nonetheless

without him France just collapsed

which shows that Sagnol should leave Germany soon and play at Juve

wahre G

Good one Otto (when did "France collapse", have I missed something? Do you mean the penalties?)

Incest more common than thought in your posts these days as ever, I see

The "Führungsspieler", as in your antediluvian Rumpelfußball fantasy world, not as in iconic leaders such as the great Zizou. There will always be a need for them, not however for a Jeremies or a Briegel purely to "intimidate the opposition"...

Allez les rouges wrote:The "Führungsspieler", as in your antediluvian Rumpelfußball fantasy world, not as in iconic leaders such as the great Zizou. There will always be a need for them, not however for a Jeremies or a Briegel purely to "intimidate the opposition"...

I remember Honigstein writing about outdated concepts like 'führungsspieler' and 'vorstopper', I think when discussing Bayern recently.

Just out of interest, what does Honigstein write about in German publications (in the Suddeutsche Zeitung if I remember correctly)? Does he write about the Bundesliga or just English football? He has a book out about English football soon, I'm looking forward to reading it.

I did acknowledge Rapha in making these remarks Sheffield!

Yeah I've read stuff by him in both the SZ and the Tagesspiegel on English football (whether club or national side).

Didn't know about the book, great stuff. Still not got round to properly reading Uli Hesse-Lichtenberger's story of German football either...

I know, I was just trying to remind myself of the article and was trying to recall a few of the points he made in it. That sentence was mostly for my benefit!

If anyone is interested, this is the book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Harder-Better-Stronger-Raphael-Honigstein/dp/022408013X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208797740&sr=8-1

I've heard Honigstein talking about some of these themes before on podcasts, and he has some interesting ideas. It'll definitely be worth reading.

Great stuff! Even if the title just makes me think of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbSKnU5ZwJg&feature=related

*oops* what does this button do ?

er NO

maldini, zanetti, totti, del pierro ... to name a few candidates at club level from italy, and that's without naming cannavaro the best player and italy captain at your home tournament

cannavaro is clearly better than ballack

puyol is another that stands out

I avoided the english ones just to avoid the stupid arguments that would follow