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    Aragones - genius or lucky?

    Torrente
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    Post by Torrente Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:35 am

    I have to say that I still cannot believe Spain has won the Euro. The only time I began to truly believe we would win was after the Italy game. Before that I was convinced there would be yet another Spanish failure. This has been in no small part due to Aragones and his incompetence. When we look at the decisions he has made, it seems that he has been proven right in many of them, but I also think he got very lucky. Let´s look at some of his key decisions.

    The most obvious one has been Raul´s omission from the squad. Aragones was going to live or die by this decision, and he has proven to be thoroughly correct. Raul can certainly be a negative presense in a squad, partly because he tends to be played no matter how bad his form is, and that has to affect other players who can´t understand why there is a different standard for the Raul than the rest. This is parly why I have wanted Raul out of Real Madrid for at lest 2-3 years, despite everything he´s done for the club. But at the same time, to claim that this proves that Raul has dragged the team down in the past is ridiculous. He did in the last WC, but that´s it. Raul will still go down as one of the best players Spain has ever had, and nothing should change that.

    Regarding Guti and Joaquin´s ommission from the squad, I think Aragones got very lucky there. In Guti´s case, he´s the perfect super sub and he was the top assist man in the league last season. I think that if Germany or Italy had scored first against us, he could have been a crucial player to turn the game around. Joaquin´s absense was also felt, and I think he could have done much better than Iniesta or Silva, especially the former, who had a dreadful tournament despite possibly being the most talented player in the squad.

    But to Aragones´s credit, dropping Cesc in favor of Senna worked wonders for the team. I wanted Cesc to play ahead of Xavi, but after a slow start, Xavi came through when it really mattered by having two very good games against Russia and Germany. Could Cesc have done better than Xavi if he´d gotten some continuity? We´ll never know, but what we do know is that Senna and Xavi delivered, so Aragones got it right.

    It must also be said that somehow Aragones helped to create a team spirit not seen in Spain for a long time. Whether leaving the likes of Raul and Joaquin helped with this I don´t know, but the old man will be remembered for achieving something his last several predecessors have failed at.

    Aragones should also get credit for winning the Euro in a `Spanish` style. He was under immense pressure to abandon the ´tiqui-taca´ and play a more direct style of football. But no one can deny that Spain won the Euro by playing their brand of football, which may be frustrating at times but when it works it can lead to dazzling displays of football. It´s not quite like the Dutchies´ total football, but at least it comes close.

    What do other posters think about this?
    Roger Hunt
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    Post by Roger Hunt Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:47 am

    I think there was an element of luck but almost all teams need a little bit of luck at some point.

    For Spain, it was probably the Sweden game with the late winner (and maybe playing an understrength Russia in the first game). But they've beaten the world champions and two of this competition's semifinalists (one of them twice) and no team that relies on luck could achieve that.

    And Ale to Aragones and Spain for sticking to their stylistic guns.
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    Post by The-Frank-Tavern Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:47 am

    i'm not sure he got lucky, the team spirit was a major factor in this, and guti falls into the raul bracket with this just not so bad so i can understand it, and despite his tactical failings at times, he usually had the bottle to change it when it was going wrong and made some v good tactical and substitute changes.

    he's made mistakes during the qualifying but eventually put them right, and has been vindicated in many of his decisions, the old man of Hortaleza will now forever be a legend in Spain.

    I had such a party last night, couldn't have enjoyed myself much more i don't think if Wales had one. as one spanish friend said to another he's got spain in his heart even if he wasn't born here!!! truly a great night
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    Post by Machiavel Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:47 am

    Torrente wrote:
    Aragones should also get credit for winning the Euro in a `Spanish` style. He was under immense pressure to abandon the ´tiqui-taca´ and play a more direct style of football. But no one can deny that Spain won the Euro by playing their brand of football, which may be frustrating at times but when it works it can lead to dazzling displays of football.


    This I agree with. I can understand where the pressure was coming from, today it’s all about winning ‘by any means’ and for him to stick with the right way for the purist and succeed, this makes it even more special and better. I think the omission of Raul was a gamble; given Rauls good form for the past 18 months, but the quality of forwards Spain has there was a good chance of success. Not sure about the Spanish preparation prior to the tournament but if he had a decision to make to play Senna, well that’s another good decision, probably one of the outstanding performers from Spain in the tournament.

    Maybe there was some fortune in his decisions, but he had something in mind and it came out well as you said could have backfired. Having a cohesive and balanced team really helped, they were worthy winners. Aragones and his backroom team + players got it right at the key moments.
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    Post by Roger Hunt Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:53 am

    The-Frank-Tavern wrote: I had such a party last night, couldn't have enjoyed myself much more i don't think if Wales had one. as one spanish friend said to another he's got spain in his heart even if he wasn't born here!!! truly a great night

    Glory hunter Whistle

    Enjoy it Frank! Ale ok
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    Post by The-Frank-Tavern Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:56 am

    i know feels a bit like that, but it was impossible NOT to get drawn into it, watched every game in the same bar with the same spanish mate, made loads of new acquaintances a couple of who didn't even realise i wasn't spanish til last night. and one thing is for certain which is always a positive, the spanish know how to party!!!
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    Post by fcb Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:56 am

    One thing Aragones did superbly was using the friendlies to try different starting lineups and different combinations all over the pitch, so that when the tournament started he knew exactly what his first team was and what his substitutions would be. It wasn't as rigid as Domenech at WC 06, but not as clueless as Eriksson or Mclaren at England.

    And I agree with Roger Hunt - the late winner from Villa against Sweden was the turning point, even before the watershed Italy win. Because even though a draw wouldn't have been a big deal in that match, it would have been typical Spain of the past. Instead by scoring late, there was a subtle psychological shift for all the Spanish players.
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    Post by The-Frank-Tavern Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:01 pm

    kas it was a turning point but too many spanish sides in the past would have given up and stopped believing they would get a goal well before the last minute, this team had that inner belief and much more will to win than any spanish side in living memory.
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    Post by Torrente Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:05 pm

    Also, I just wanted to add that I have a newfound respect for German fans. I was watching the game in front of the Rathuis, and afterwards numerous German fans shook my hand and acknowledged we were better. Me and my friends actually went drinking with other Germans after the game, which was a lot of fun. There was also a big gathering of Germans close to the Karplatz who were cheering for Germany after the game, despite the fact that they lost. Personally I couldn´t have gathered the energy to do that had Spain lost, but it was admirable to see such national pride after a defeat. <Ale>
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    Post by TM Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:11 pm

    Why was Ramos wearing a Betis flag? Doh
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    Post by Z Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:11 pm

    Torrente wrote:Also, I just wanted to add that I have a newfound respect for German fans. I was watching the game in front of the Rathuis, and afterwards numerous German fans shook my hand and acknowledged we were better. Me and my friends actually went drinking with other Germans after the game, which was a lot of fun. There was also a big gathering of Germans close to the Karplatz who were cheering for Germany after the game, despite the fact that they lost. Personally I couldn´t have gathered the energy to do that had Spain lost, but it was admirable to see such national pride after a defeat. <Ale>

    Boris Becker just said on TV that Spain deserved to win by 2-3 goals. ok
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    Post by The-Frank-Tavern Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:12 pm

    t¡t it was the andalucian flag!!!
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    Post by TM Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:13 pm

    Ah yes. I read somewhere it was a Betis flag left me confused.
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    Post by Calidad Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:48 pm

    Good post Torrente.

    I still think he should've taken Joaquin because I felt he would have made a difference in certain games (Sweden/Italy) for example. But Argones has won the tournament and done it in relative style, so it's difficult be too critical.

    I hope one day he plays Iniesta in a central role. He is so talented that he has done well on the wing in the past but it's clearly not a position he favours. I was amazed by how reluctant he was to use his left foot as well, I've seen him use it numerous times in the past even going close with volley's etc.
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    Post by Machiavel Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:57 pm

    Aragones - genius or lucky? Aragones438get
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    Post by fcb Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:59 pm

    Anyone else thought at the time that being thrown up like that would be a bit too much for the old man and he'd seize up right there and then? Very Happy
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    Post by Machiavel Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:02 pm

    I was concerned when they were throwing him in the air, anything could have happened. But everyone was in the act, a great gesture which is commonplace.
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    Post by Sheffield gunner Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:05 pm

    Did people see this? http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/euro_2008/7480565.stm

    Got to feel a bit sorry for Schweinsteiger. Being interviewed with all the Spanish players celebrating and doing the conga right behind him! Laughing
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    Post by Machiavel Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:06 pm

    What a LEGEND San Iker is leading the Conga line !!

    they should have this music in the background: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4A50EHwCjY
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    Post by Calidad Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:33 pm

    I also think it's worth mentioning that as well as dropping players from the squad, Aragones never shied away from taking off the big names either. Iniesta was taken off early in the first couple of games, as was Torres. Xavi had been taken off one one or two occasions as well, and in his worst game of the tournament he Aragones was quick to take Silva off. He also took Fabregas off

    Squad depth obviously comes in to it, but he makes his decisions and doesn't pander to the press or public.
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    Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:15 pm

    My opinion is the biggest difference between this Spain and the Spain of 06 (for example) was that they all pulled in the same direction. Furthermore, players like Fabregas, Iniesta etc. were a bit more wiser and less tactically naive.

    Kudos also to the Spanish federation for sticking with Aragones after WC2006. Continuity is always underestimated in the international context. Just look at Italy. Donadoni managed to transform a pretty attacking team to a dour, defensive one in just two years. Italy were horribly coached. Spain, however, played for each other and knew how each other would play. When Spain beat Italy in a friendly this year, I had a feeling they would go all the way. I know friendlies are not supposed to tell much, but their movement in that game was very good.

    Dropping Raul and sticking with the decision did wonders for Aragones's image. Unlike Donadoni he did not bow to media pressure in including certain players. Aragones made sure he assembled a team of winners: mentally strong, united and technically superb.

    Congrats again.
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    Post by The-Frank-Tavern Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:19 pm

    think the mental toughness and team spirit were the huge difference too. the barca v rm click with the exclusion of raul was terminated immediately. casillas did a great job as captain pulling everybody together with aragones, not something with the politics between catalonia, the basques and the rest of spain that we usually see.
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    Post by golsud Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:31 pm

    Neither a genius or lucky just a man with enough cojones to leave out the cancer of the team <Ale>
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    Post by Jaime Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:33 pm

    golsud wrote:Neither a genius or lucky just a man with enough cojones to leave out the cancer of the team <Ale>

    Yup, good thing he got rid of Albelda. Ale
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    Post by Super Progress Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:35 pm

    golsud wrote:Neither a genius or lucky just a man with enough cojones to leave out the cancer of the team <Ale>
    You do know that now because of Xavis succes in the Euros he will be impossible to keep out of Barcas team. cheers
    Gotta love spain eh.
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    Post by golsud Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:35 pm

    Jaime wrote:
    golsud wrote:Neither a genius or lucky just a man with enough cojones to leave out the cancer of the team <Ale>

    Yup, good thing he got rid of Albelda. Ale

    I meant RAUL SELECCION!!!.

    Xavi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guti <Ale>
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    Post by golsud Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:36 pm

    Super Madrid wrote:
    golsud wrote:Neither a genius or lucky just a man with enough cojones to leave out the cancer of the team <Ale>
    You do know that now because of Xavis succes in the Euros he will be impossible to keep out of Barcas team. cheers
    Gotta love spain eh.

    And you know that thanks to Raul you won't sign Villa and he will play every game even though he wasn't selected for the euro squad cheers

    RAUL SELECCION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    Post by Super Progress Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:43 pm

    golsud wrote:
    Super Madrid wrote:
    golsud wrote:Neither a genius or lucky just a man with enough cojones to leave out the cancer of the team <Ale>
    You do know that now because of Xavis succes in the Euros he will be impossible to keep out of Barcas team. cheers
    Gotta love spain eh.

    And you know that thanks to Raul you won't sign Villa and he will play every game even though he wasn't selected for the euro squad cheers

    RAUL SELECCION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    yes we will. after Ronaldo becomes to expensive they will have to get a star striker and they will turn to Villa without a doubt. And Raul Seleccion will return to Spains national team with Del Bosque takes charge and so will Guti,Soldado,DLR,Salgado and whoever gets the madrid stamp of approval. <Ale>
    Xavi <Ale>
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    Post by Z&H Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:02 pm

    Good point by Jaime. If it wasn't for Koeman and all his revolution in Valencia squad, would Aragones stick with Albelda or even Baraja?
    Just wondering scratch
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    Post by The-Frank-Tavern Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:04 pm

    i think that squad would have been much the same, i love albelda as a player but don't forget he was hardly 1st 1st choice in the last WC so i think the old man of Hortaleza would have had his squad identical to what it was regardless

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