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Riviera
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mongrel hawk
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    brasil export

    mongrel hawk
    mongrel hawk


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    Post by mongrel hawk Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:02 pm

    1.176 brazilian players went to play abroad this year.

    1. portugal - 227 brazilian players

    2. germany - 58

    3. italy - 53

    4. sweden - 46


    with thousands and thousands of players away from our leagues, no wonder that south american clubs, that were the best in the world until the 80s, are now having to play like small teams when they face europeans.

    sad.
    DS
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    Post by DS Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:33 pm

    Expect alot more to arrive in England.

    Sad it is though.
    christmasborocooper
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    Post by christmasborocooper Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:36 pm

    Juninho?

    Ale
    Axeslammer
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    Post by Axeslammer Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:46 pm

    Nice whining ok

    Typical South American....

    How many Dutchmen are playing abroad, how many Portuguese ?

    What do you think that means for our teams competitiveness ?!

    Do you see us whining like little girls in a barbie shop ?

    Ale
    mongrel hawk
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    Post by mongrel hawk Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:58 pm

    how many dutch and portuguese players are playing in brazil? that's the difference.

    and I suppose you know there are more brazilians playing in the champions league than dutches and portuguese and germans and italians.

    I'm whining because we could have all those thousands of players, the bad and the good ones, playing in our national legaues, and our first division would certainly be a hell of a league - like it was until the 80s, with all the national team stars playing in Brazilian clubs. for a big country where football is so popular, that's sad.

    for christ sake, we're exporting more than 100 teams per year. something is very wrong and should be done about it.



    Axeslammer wrote:Nice whining ok

    Typical South American....

    How many Dutchmen are playing abroad, how many Portuguese ?

    What do you think that means for our teams competitiveness ?!

    Do you see us whining like little girls in a barbie shop ?

    Ale
    Axeslammer
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    Post by Axeslammer Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:21 am

    *yawn* even more whining *yawn*
    Kroos
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    Post by Kroos Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:56 am

    no surprise, they all want the money, and in brasil there is no money

    i doubt that they are all quality
    EMP
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    Post by EMP Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:30 am

    Axeslammer wrote:*yawn* even more whining *yawn*

    Isn't 6+5 an attempt to prevent the decline of national leagues in terms of home-country-based players. UEFA supports it as does FIFA, and several national associations - the FA for one has been whingeing about the lack of English youngsters coming through because they are blocked by foreigners. All Mongrel Hawk has done is point out the effect it is having on domestic football in Brasil.

    If you really want to stop the export/inport of average foreign players, stop overpaying for domestic talent. How much did Arsenal pay for Walcott compared to Merida or even Fabregas for example and how much did Spurs pay for Bale? At those prices of course clubs - even rich ones - will look abroad. (not directed at you Axe: obviously)

    Mongrel Hawk: If you want to stop the export, you have to have longer contracts and overcharge when rich clubs come knocking and even then you won't. Your FA and government have to intervene and they almost certainly won't. That's market forces for you though. <Ale>
    fcb
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    Post by fcb Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:05 am

    But South American clubs can't just say "we're charging 20m and won't accept a penny less", because once the player (and his agent) has his head turned by the European money, he's not interested in staying in Brazil or Argentina any more. Then you just have to accept what you get before the player throws his toys out the pram and his value potentially drops further.
    bluenine
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    Post by bluenine Thu Dec 25, 2008 2:11 pm

    Personally, I liked football more when (90s in Serie A) you were allowed to play only 3 foriegn players in your starting XI - the rest had to be Italian. It ensured that only the quality foriegn players were bought.

    I like the sound of 6+5, but with the EU regulations that would be hard to implement...
    EMP
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    Post by EMP Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:46 pm

    Problem with 6+5 is that it will strengthen the hand of domestic agents to demand ridiculous wages and transfers for domestic talent without it being based on true worth; it will create an artificial and inflated market that cannot function adequately in the current financial situation.
    Deano
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    Post by Deano Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:51 am

    Bring in the 6+5 rule ok.

    Would love it to happen...about time certain clubs in the Premiership started having an English core in the team...

    Sampdoria finished 5th in Serie A with 11 Italian players in the starting XI for most of the season I think...missing out on CL by GD/1 point.

    I think Serie A doesn't have so much of a problem, apart from the bigger teams.
    EMP
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    Post by EMP Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:39 pm

    GianDeano Zola wrote:Bring in the 6+5 rule ok.

    Would love it to happen...about time certain clubs in the Premiership started having an English core in the team...

    Sampdoria finished 5th in Serie A with 11 Italian players in the starting XI for most of the season I think...missing out on CL by GD/1 point.

    I think Serie A doesn't have so much of a problem, apart from the bigger teams.

    Won't such a rule result in domestic talent being overpriced, meaning that smaller clubs will only be able to afford the dross and be forced to play them? This rule should not come in without some kind of financia cap to prevent it becoming a stealth tax that benefits the bigger clubs.

    Were Walcott and Bale really worth the fees that Southampton got for them ?If this comes in similar young domestic talent will become even more expensive as clubs are forced to pay to comply with the rule. Alternatively the bigger clubs will pull a Bostock on the smaller ones.
    Riviera
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    Post by Riviera Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:40 pm

    Well compared to number of inhabitans, it's not that bad. Especially Germany, what, 80 some millions and 58 exported players.

    Isn't Brazil and Portugal the same? Wink
    Deano
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    Post by Deano Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:44 pm

    EMPeror Augustus wrote:
    GianDeano Zola wrote:Bring in the 6+5 rule ok.

    Would love it to happen...about time certain clubs in the Premiership started having an English core in the team...

    Sampdoria finished 5th in Serie A with 11 Italian players in the starting XI for most of the season I think...missing out on CL by GD/1 point.

    I think Serie A doesn't have so much of a problem, apart from the bigger teams.

    Won't such a rule result in domestic talent being overpriced, meaning that smaller clubs will only be able to afford the dross and be forced to play them? This rule should not come in without some kind of financia cap to prevent it becoming a stealth tax that benefits the bigger clubs.

    Were Walcott and Bale really worth the fees that Southampton got for them ?If this comes in similar young domestic talent will become even more expensive as clubs are forced to pay to comply with the rule. Alternatively the bigger clubs will pull a Bostock on the smaller ones.

    Yeah, because British players aren't already overpriced are they? It would just mean more youth development, and more British players in the league. Many decent youngsters don't get a chance because of cheap foreign players brought in to do the job.

    Arsenal decided to get rid of players like Upson, Bentley, Pennant etc...who have shown that they have quality at other clubs.

    It would only affect certain clubs anyway...

    Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool would be affected...so would smaller clubs like Bolton and Portsmouth...Man City are another one, and they have the talent to bring through too...

    I am glad we have a manager who recognises that we have decent young talent to play, instead of wasting money and wages on foreign players who can just do the job.
    EMP
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    Post by EMP Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:22 am

    GianDeano Zola wrote:
    EMPeror Augustus wrote:
    GianDeano Zola wrote:Bring in the 6+5 rule ok.

    Would love it to happen...about time certain clubs in the Premiership started having an English core in the team...

    Sampdoria finished 5th in Serie A with 11 Italian players in the starting XI for most of the season I think...missing out on CL by GD/1 point.

    I think Serie A doesn't have so much of a problem, apart from the bigger teams.

    Won't such a rule result in domestic talent being overpriced, meaning that smaller clubs will only be able to afford the dross and be forced to play them? This rule should not come in without some kind of financia cap to prevent it becoming a stealth tax that benefits the bigger clubs.

    Were Walcott and Bale really worth the fees that Southampton got for them ?If this comes in similar young domestic talent will become even more expensive as clubs are forced to pay to comply with the rule. Alternatively the bigger clubs will pull a Bostock on the smaller ones.

    Yeah, because British players aren't already overpriced are they? It would just mean more youth development, and more British players in the league. Many decent youngsters don't get a chance because of cheap foreign players brought in to do the job.

    Arsenal decided to get rid of players like Upson, Bentley, Pennant etc...who have shown that they have quality at other clubs.

    It would only affect certain clubs anyway...

    Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool would be affected...so would smaller clubs like Bolton and Portsmouth...Man City are another one, and they have the talent to bring through too...

    I am glad we have a manager who recognises that we have decent young talent to play, instead of wasting money and wages on foreign players who can just do the job.

    Up to a point, but perhaps there was a reason those players were let go. Muamba was also released by Arsenal. They weren't released because Wenger sudeenly realised they were English. He didn't think they were good enough. How does forcing him to play players he doesn't think are good enough help?

    It will help academy players in short term, but it will also result in inflated wages and transfer demands as clubs scramble to fill their teams with domestic talent.

    I find it interesting how many posters complain about quota systems yet support this. What is this if not a quota system? What is this if not positive discrimination? Interesting how so many are silent now when their own countrymen benefit from postive discrimination. If you are consistent in opposing quotas and positive discrimination, then you should oppose this.
    Aristoskank
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    Post by Aristoskank Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:52 pm

    6+5 is a nonsense that won't achieve what it's designed to do, and may well achieve the opposite.

    Same as all positive discrimination really, it's a half measure that can be as obstructive as it is progressive. While some might point to Obama as a success of such policies, such a claim is naive because Obama is not from a pisspoor background, didn't go to some violent hellhole of an inner city school, wasn't surrounded by drug dealers and gangs his entire youth, etc. etc.

    He's successful for the same reason most people are - they had a secure and moderately well off background which enabled them to explore various options until they found something they were good at.

    And this is why positive discrimination doesn't work - because adding points to someone's university application at the age of 18 or 20 is too late, and does nothing to address the very real and continuing problems. That person may have gotten better grades and a better education had they been a better school, but they weren't. So they get a place on a university course ahead of someone else who may have been smarter, or harder working, and the school that let them down remains a failure, which only means we'll have to keep doing this for future generations. Plus, it means that universities (and businesses and government institutions and so on) will have to set their standards lower so they don't exclude someone they've only got because of some daft points system that is meant to make up for that person being failed by a prior institution. Which means the whole system retrogresses and declines in the name of accommodating its own failings.

    In the footballing example the races are for the most part switched, in that it's predominantly white English footballers complaining that some dark foreigner has taken their job but the principle is the same - those English players shouldn't get a place at the top clubs just because they happen to be English. It's a form of protectionism, but again, it's about lowering standards in the name of accommodating failings. If we in English produced better footballers then we wouldn't have this problem. There'd be an abundance of local talent so we'd only look abroad for the sort of exceptional talents that offer something a bit different in terms of style, attitude and so on. It's only because we produce average footballers that we need to protect 'their' places at top teams from darkie foreigners.

    There's another element to this that EMP's sorta pointed out already, that this will (at least for a time) add an additional premium to English players. This will further embed the glamour and wealth culture of English football which will attract some but put off others who might be of particularly professional disposition and therefore make very good players.

    It's a shameful policy. I doubt it will work.
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    Post by A & K Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:54 am

    mongrel hawk wrote:1.176 brazilian players went to play abroad this year.

    1. portugal - 227 brazilian players

    2. germany - 58

    3. italy - 53

    4. sweden - 46


    with thousands and thousands of players away from our leagues, no wonder that south american clubs, that were the best in the world until the 80s, are now having to play like small teams when they face europeans.

    sad.

    Don't they know about the weather conditions over there?
    toon h
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    Post by toon h Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:34 pm

    about the 227 Brazilians going to play in Portugal last year. How many were in the first division? It is an amazing amount of new players to absorb, whether they are Brazilian or otherwise. How many professional players does Portugal even have?

    In the 1st and 2nd Liga + 2nd division there are only 86 teams. There are another 96 in the 3rd division, but I doubt this league is viable for professional football.
    If the 96 teams have 25 professional players each, this means there would be 2400 professional players in Portugal. At an average lifespan for a player in Portugal of 12 years, this means that every year 200 new professional players are needed to fill the gaps left. Taking into account that a large proportion of them would be Portuguese, it is safe (?) to assume most Brazilian newcomers are going there as semi-professionals and that very few are actually going into the top division.
    How much money are these kids making there and what happens with them when they don't make it to full professional status? Most of them must be youngsters, where are their parents? Is the whole family displaced here?

    How many Brazilian players come back to Brazil every year? Do you have that statistic as well? Perhaps many of the players that don't make it, want to go back to Brazil, since it is not easy living in Portugal without money either.
    EM Seleção e Selecção
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    Post by EM Seleção e Selecção Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:46 pm

    Most Brazilian players rights being owned by companies instead of their clubs really doesn't help matters.

    Sponsored content


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