is the EPL in free fall...............

after domination the cl for years, next year will be a new challenge, all 4 clubs dont have the big money (and a lot of debts) to invest in there squads, or they have the money but no interest to strengthen them

manu: lost there superstar, and the squad is not filled with them, they also got older players in scholes and giggs, and nani and anderson never dilivered constant, there midfield looks weak compared to other heavyweights in europe, even bayern have now a better one, lets not talk about strikers

chelsea: they become not younger, and looks not that they will buy a big one, they maybe loose deco and carvalho,

liverpool: there biggest strength is there coach, he really brings out the maximum out from this squad, and when there keyplayer gerrard is injured , they are really done

arsenal: have some great talent, but no money to buy big money, they must hope that some players grow up




in italy i only see Inter for cl glory, for germany bayern, and of course real and barca

Well the only REAL challenger to the top four dominance of the CL now (in addition to Barca) is Real Madrid.

So I think the final four will be made up from four of:

- Man Utd
- Arsenal
- Liverpool
- Chelsea
- Real Madrid
- Barca
- Inter

Other clubs with an outside chance are Juventus, Bayern, Milan and Villarreal.

For the Big four of the EPL though, provided no more players are lost....

Arsenal will be stronger with Vermeulen, Arshavin and possibly a new CM.

Man Utd weaker through the loss of CR - but there's still a hell of a lot of the summer to go and they'll undoubtedly spend on some attacking players

Chelsea are stronger - they'll have Zhirkov and a new top class forward

Liverpool are stronger because they'll have Johnson and potentially a new forward.

The only difference is that Barca and Real Madrid are both massive favourites to win the whole thing. What I think though is that the other two semi final births will be taken by EPL clubs and if either Barca or Madrid get knocked out before the semis, the additional spot will be an EPL club.

So, two or three.

Tweedle wrote:Well the only REAL challenger to the top four dominance of the CL now (in addition to Barca) is Real Madrid.

So I think the final four will be made up from four of:

- Man Utd
- Arsenal
- Liverpool
- Chelsea
- Real Madrid
- Barca
- Inter

Other clubs with an outside chance are Juventus, Bayern, Milan and Villarreal.

For the Big four of the EPL though, provided no more players are lost....

Arsenal will be stronger with Vermeulen, Arshavin and possibly a new CM.

Man Utd weaker through the loss of CR - but there's still a hell of a lot of the summer to go and they'll undoubtedly spend on some attacking players

Chelsea are stronger - they'll have Zhirkov and a new top class forward

Liverpool are stronger because they'll have Johnson and potentially a new forward.

The only difference is that Barca and Real Madrid are both massive favourites to win the whole thing. What I think though is that the other two semi final births will be taken by EPL clubs and if either Barca or Madrid get knocked out before the semis, the additional spot will be an EPL club.

So, two or three.

yeah johnson and zhirkov really world beaters - and what class forward is avaible? no one, maybe they buy another robbie keane, xavi alonso is likely to leave too

vermeueln will sit on bench, hahaha arshawin


bayern can easily reach the semifinal, when they have the same luck in the draws like manu and arsenal in the last years

our enemys in the last years always the winner of the CL or the most consistent team in the last years (cheslsea, milan, barca)

now we have a quality coach and our players not inferior to liverpool, manu, arseanl; i see chelsea as clear favourite from the english top4

Özil wrote:yeah johnson and zhirkov really world beaters

Glen Johnson is a top class right back and is a position Liverpool needed strengthening, so he'll undoubtedly improve their squad.

Zhirkov is world class. I don't know where you're coming from on that one.

- and what class forward is avaible?

Apparently Pato for Chelsea Is that good enough for you?

Liverpool don't need a world class forward because they have Torres with Gerrard as the 2nd striker they need depth though.

xavi alonso is likely to leave too

Well if he does, they'll be weaker. He hasn't left yet though has he??

vermeueln will sit on bench, hahaha arshawin

Vermeulen won't sit on the bench. Touré has been poor the past season or so so Vermuelen will replace him. Apparently Citeh want Touré anyhow.

'hahaha Arshvavin' ???? He's better than ANY player in the Bundesliga.

bayern can easily reach the semifinal, when they have the same luck in the draws like manu and arsenal in the last years

Well that remains to be seen. You CAN. But its likely Ribery will leave and flat track bully Gomez isn't likely to have an impact once you get out of the group stages.

yeah zhirkov a men for the left side, where ashley cole and malouda playing, hmm bust be a real improvement

i think you rate players from russian and netherlands league higher than some bundesliga players, i have my doubts you ever watched a single bundesliga game

i think you talked that: our u21 team has some advantages to other countries because they play in the best league in the world, yeah our medicore players from the medicore bundesliga humiliated your team

Dutch league players

I've hardly said Vermeulen is world class! I've just said he'll add depth.

If you don't think Zhirkov is a top class player then you clearly haven't watched him play.

Well this is another interesting thread from you Ozil

I don't think free fall accurately describes the current situation but you are free to think what you like


Re: Liverpool. We missed gerrard for large parts of last season (and torres) and only lost two league games all season so again your comment that Liverpool 'are really done' isn't really accurate.

At this moment, i'd say 3 again, but it's hard to judge when the transfer window still has another 2 months to go.

The EPL sides are still making good buys, and they already have very good squads to start with. Like Tweedle said, their main challengers will be Barca and now Real, which means they are still likely to make it into the latter stages of the tournament. I would've added Milan but they lost Ancelotti and Kaka and look in free fall atm.

Tweedle wrote:

So I think the final four will be made up from four of:

- Man Utd
- Arsenal
- Liverpool
- Chelsea
- Real Madrid
- Barca
- Inter

You do realize it's the CL we're talking about ?

Ever since Inter Perfidia found out buying refs in Italy was a lot easier than in the CL, they've refused to go past the QF out of sheer principle

I would say two... there are 6 teams which look quite strong - Barca, Real, Chelsea, ManUtd, Liverpool and Inter. Then there are teams which are almost there, like Juventus, Arsenal, Bayern, etc who could make the semi's. So I think the EPL domination of the last CL stages will continue, tho I think a spanish side will win it again.

Barca
Chelsea
Liverpool
inter
Bayern

its between these teams

man utd are going to have to rebuild and real stars aren't going to shine brightly together.

Bayern?

Tweedle wrote:Bayern?

Van gaal

Shut up Messiah.

for me its

barca (they will not increase there form from last year)
real (not 100 % sure, a well organized time like chelsea would have no troubles)
chelsea (best team from the englsih top3)
liverpool (as usual on there day nobody wanna play them, but less quality to others)
bayern (new quality coach, better squad than last year, more fullbacks avaible, new defensive midfielder)

i dont rate arseanl that high, last year humiliated by manu, never a chance in the league, always lucky with draws in the cl

manu (72 goals machine is gone, and too many follower in the squad) not the super power anymore,

inter (no pace and creativity in there midfield)

Tweedle wrote:Bayern?

+ Inter

Seriously its not really worth speculating right now until the teams are set and even then when in KO time form, fatigue, injuries and luck can and almost certainly will have as much influence as the players/mangers.

However I will say, assuming all things go as much as can be expected (which Madrid have shown us probably won't), I would fear Juve in the CL over Inter, Bayern, Madrid.

didn't Bayern lose something like 400-0 in the quarter finals last season? I can't see an EPL side being so uncompetitive this year.

How are Bayern and Inter ahead of Arsenal there?

How many times has Arsenal won this competition?

Well Bayern have van Gaal and Edson. Inter has a top side and a top coach, surely they will break their horrible CL record someday. Arsenal have Vermeulen and a coach who is famous to have lost all possible European cup finals.

Im going for FC Porto, they are always there and always underrated. Would be good for the football as well.

shazlx wrote:

Tweedle wrote:Bayern?

+ Inter

Seriously its not really worth speculating right now until the teams are set and even then when in KO time form, fatigue, injuries and luck can and almost certainly will have as much influence as the players/mangers.

However I will say, assuming all things go as much as can be expected (which Madrid have shown us probably won't), I would fear Juve in the CL over Inter, Bayern, Madrid.

Just interested as to why you think this ?

blutgraetsche wrote:How many times has Arsenal won this competition?

What have either of these teams done in recent seasons? Or what signings have you made that will significantly improve your team for next season?

Anyway i'm not really bothered if no-one rates Arsenal's chances. I much prefer it that way.

Tymoshuk will improve Bayern considerably, because he is the first true DM they have signed since Jeremies. Bayern have basically played in the CL for years without a proper DM, and still managed to reach the 1/4 finals almost every time.

Their achilles heel has always been allowing the opposition too much space in the midfield. Even in the away group match against Lyon, which Bayern won 3-2, this was very clear, for example.

Add Van Gaal's experience to the mix, he actually won this competition with Ajax once, reaching two CL finals, and the other players Bayern have already signed and likely are going to sign, there is no reason to believe why they can't do better in the coming years.


Mourinho has a very good record in the CL, and this will be his second year with Inter. It's true that they are perennial underachievers in Europe, but that's exactly why they signed him in first place. The longer he is there, and the longer he is allowed to form a team of his liking - physical, disciplined, hard to beat etc., the higher the chances for Inter to improve in Europe.


And btw., it's not about "not rating" Arsenal, they are rated by many actually. It's about logical arguments. You ask what players those clubs have added to their squad to be considered stronger opponents, but what players have Arsenal added? Where is the improvement?

I take your point with regards to Bayern.

Inter has been discussed they lack any mobility and movement in the midfield and against English opposition Italian teams especially get overrun since they are not used to playing at the quick tempo the PL clubs play at.

Mourinho is a determining factor for sure but there is only so much a man can do and the signings they have made this summer I doubt are going to frighten the rest of Europe.

With regards to Arsenal we shoot ourselves in the foot a lot of the time by making silly and stupid mistakes. That comes down to the player and the manager for not addressing this problem.

A lot has been made of Arsenal's defence but it was pretty solid from November up until April when Gallas got injured in the first leg of the QF against Villarreal.

His experience is a major factor, add to the fact Rosicky and Eduardo are coming back from major injuries and those two are like new signings. Arshavin made a real difference when he moved in January and him playing in the CL for us next season can only be another plus.

These are all improvements which should help us at home and abroad next season. I like most Gunners would like to see another experienced CM brought in before the start and I'm pretty sure we'll do that.

We got to the semi's last season and to be fair I fear English clubs and Barca over anyone else in Europe.

Well, that's no surprise, knowing that it was the English clubs + Barca (and Milan) that actually advanced to the later stages of the CL regularly in the last few years. But like all 'eras', there will be an end to this sooner or later, probably sooner than many think.

Thing is, while the English clubs still have all the necessary experience, they don't seem to improve this summer like they did in the last few years (-> to stay on top, you need to improve constantly). It is still early days, of course, but compared to the last few years, when EPL clubs outspent their continental counterparts regularly, this summer it looks like some of the major CL powerhouses might end up weaker than they were before, because they lost or might still lose key players that can't be replaced easily (e.g. Ronaldo for ManUnited, Alonso for Liverpool). The only EPL big four club that improved on paper is Chelsea, due to the new coach they signed, who has an excellent record in the CL. But it remains to be seen how he will do in a new league, with a new team, so far he has only worked in Italy.

As far as Arsenal is concerned, I agree with the points you make in regards to Rosicky and Eduardo, who can be seen as "new signings" indeed, provided Rosicky manages to stay fit that is. Arshavin improves Arsenal also, of course. But you still may lose Adebayor, and it remains to be seen who you will replace him with.

And that's the general problem of Arsenal. You have continuity as far as the manager is concerned, but not in the team. You lose key players almost every season, and even if you manage to replace them adequately, it simply takes time for them to settle. And you need continuity to win the CL, building a CL winning team takes time and patience.

It is true especially in United's case. I would arguably say that they are the ine's who are weakened most. Liverpool also have problems as I don't see anyone out there who is of equal or better standard that they can purchase. In their case it is definitely better to keep Alonso rather than sign anyone else.

It is true with Adebayor but his loss is not a major one as say a Cesc. Any one who plays for Arsenal will always have chances to score since we create chances to win like 5 games.

I agree with the continuity point and that as something we have stressed in our thread a lot. Cesc doesn't look like he'll leave for another season at least and that should stand us in good stead as long as we get in another CM maybe of Tymoshcuk standard.

The point I was trying to make earlier was that it seems Italian teams are very weak mentally and when they go a goal down against English teams they never really look like turning it round.

blutgraetsche wrote:

Thing is, while the English clubs still have all the necessary experience, they don't seem to improve this summer like they did in the last few years (-> to stay on top, you need to improve constantly). It is still early days, of course, but compared to the last few years, when EPL clubs outspent their continental counterparts regularly, this summer it looks like some of the major CL powerhouses might end up weaker than they were before, because they lost or might still lose key players that can't be replaced easily (e.g. Ronaldo for ManUnited, Alonso for Liverpool). The only EPL big four club that improved on paper is Chelsea, due to the new coach they signed, who has an excellent record in the CL. But it remains to be seen how he will do in a new league, with a new team, so far he has only worked in Italy.
.

The summer has just started Blut. Forming opinions on it at the minute is totally ridiculous (with the exception of United losing Ronaldo).

I fully expect us to end the summer by strengtheing our two positions that needed strengthening (RB and utility forward) and keeping Alonso and Mascherano. That will mean we are significantly strengthened.

United have about £100m to spend, ditto Chelsea and Arsenal are only one centre midfielder away from significantly improving their team. All top four clubs are in very healthly positions

And the top four have not been outspending their rivals in previous seasons as you say. They just have had better continuity. Look at the figures.

BoBo Vieri 32 wrote:

shazlx wrote:

Tweedle wrote:Bayern?

+ Inter

Seriously its not really worth speculating right now until the teams are set and even then when in KO time form, fatigue, injuries and luck can and almost certainly will have as much influence as the players/mangers.

However I will say, assuming all things go as much as can be expected (which Madrid have shown us probably won't), I would fear Juve in the CL over Inter, Bayern, Madrid.

Just interested as to why you think this ?

Though I have said Cesar is the best recently, Buffon is still the most reliable GK in the world.

The defence is decent enough.

The midfield is strong if uncreative, much like Chelsea's. Though they now have Diego.

But the thing that makes them more scary than the other teams is the strike force. Great quality, depth, experience and variation. No other club has a strike force to compare. Doesn't mean its the best. Gerrard/Torres and Barca's trio and possibly others are better but no one else has four qualities mentioned above.

Van Gaal is a boost for Bayern but Tymoschuk is chronically overrated - UEFA Cup is his standard.

Olic is a poor man's Kuyt.

Toni is er...Toni.

Why do people pick Inter over Arsenal ?

Because they have better players and a better manager.


If people pick Arsenal 'cos they got further that is retarded as they were both knocked out by the same opponent.

Inter may well be better this season, Arsenal will probably be worse.

Pierre Littbarski wrote:Van Gaal is a boost for Bayern but Tymoschuk is chronically overrated - UEFA Cup is his standard.

Olic is a poor man's Kuyt.

Toni is er...Toni.

Why do people pick Inter over Arsenal ?

Because they have better players and a better manager.


If people pick Arsenal 'cos they got further that is retarded as they were both knocked out by the same opponent.

Inter may well be better this season, Arsenal will probably be worse.