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    What's gone wrong at Liverpool?

    Luis
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    Post by Luis Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:14 pm

    We've all sat and watched the demise of Liverpool this season and we've all joked about it, took the piss and in our fans case - cursed and berated our performances. But what exactly has gone wrong? From playing brilliant football and steam-rolling the likes of Madrid, United and Villa last season, finishing 4 points off the top spot, we're now not even certain of a top 6 finish. The lack of effort, motivation and desire to win games is showing, the players want the season to end now and the manager appears to be cracking under the pressure. People have drawn ominous links back to the late days of the Houllier Era were we became a laughing stock, spending millions of pounds on the likes of Diouf, Cisse and Diao.

    But how can you explain the complete transformation from a good all round footballing side in just 10 months. Here's a few of my reasons:

    1) The loss of Alonso

    Just to get this out the way first. We've all heard it a thousand times but you only have to look at some of his play for Madrid this season to see how he can get teams playing football.

    2) Steven Gerrard's decline

    I've been saying it all season. Gerrard has declined as an all round footballer. The spark and inspiration he once offered is no longer there, he's a shadow of his former self and whilst he still has ability, people are expcting far too much from him - probably even more now than they used to expect. The problem is when people used to expect him to save us he always used to do it and that brought more expecation. So when we are looking devoid of any motivation at all, people will obviously look to Gerrard, he's the captain after all. But he's lost a lot of pace and strength. His quick darts forward are easily halted and this generates frustration from him, his head drops, he doesn't believe in himself or his team mates, and it leaves us with another huge loss, the loss of one of our all time greatest players.

    3 Defensive injuries

    Our defence has up until the last 9 games or so been a total and utter shambles this season. The loss of Arbeloa was a massive one IMO - he knows how to defend, he keeps it compact and links up well with the right winger. Johnson hasn't had time to prove himself fully yet, he started the season well from an attacking perspective but injuries hampered his form and he's now missed a huge chunk of the season. Rafa's lack of faith in the likes of Martin Kelly haven't helped and I'll come to that shortly. This lack of faith has meant we've seen makeshift right backs in the form of Carragher and Mascherano. Carragher's had a very poor season by his standards in his preferred position so moving him to right back only compounds the problem. Lets face it, once he gets past his own half he doesn't have the slightest clue what to do. Mascherano can play in this role at home and we can get away with it but away from home against a side like Wigan who'll battle hard, we need him in the centre of the park, getting stuck in. It's criminal to play him right back away from home when he has the option of Martin Kelly, who has looked very promising in his cameo's thus far.

    The injuries to Skrtel and Agger have also been a hinderance. There's never been a consistant defence because one or the other, or sometimes both have been hit with injuries. Kygriakos did a fantastic job standing in for them but Agger is a player who can add to the footballing side of the game as well. Kygriakos and Carragher are just defenders who will clear the danger with hoofed balls, this is the last thing you want when you have a team devoid of confidence.

    Left back has been a problem as well. Insua has been hit and miss, he's young, he's by no means the finished article but Aurellio's injuries have meant Rafa has had to persist with him and when we've been forced to battle for points lately, Insua isn't the man for that. He has no defensive discipline, positionally he's all over the place at times but you can't put too much blame on him. It's an area we need to sort out in the summer.

    4) Rafa Benitez - the pressure has gotten to him

    Firstly, I'd like to state that like many I remain loyal to Rafa, he's a top manager, tactically one of the best but this season in particular he's done himself no favours.

    The sale of Alonso may have been in part down to him but the replacement - Aquilani has up until now been a massive error of judgement. If Rafa wont play him because he isn't fit enough then how can he justify starting Maxi - another player who's had injury problems. If Rafa isn't playing him because he isn't good enough then there's a major problem. At the end of the day we can complain about the financial situation at present (and rightly so) but when we sold Alonso we got 30 million pounds. Where did that money go? Well I'm not one to answer but IMO Rafa probably got around half of that to spend on a player. He's spent at least 15 million on Aquilani, now to give an example from Everton, Moyes spent the same amount of money on Fellaini and so far he's proved to be a fantastic signing, he offers so much to their team. Aquilani has looked poor when he's played so far. Now I'm not going to write him off yet but there is no escaping the fact that he hasn't done the simple things right. The 2 yard passes, the tackles, they haven't been what you expect from a 20 million pound player. I'll reserve judgement until next season where he will get a pre-season under his belt and there can't be more excuses but right now I'm looking at this transfer and I am extremely annoyed by the whole situation.

    Is Rafa's judgement then a major flaw? We know he likes his workhorses and we know he's obsessed with stats. Kuyt, Lucas and Maxi probably have good stats, good pass rates and work rates second to none but football isn't played on paper and manging isn't done in your office 3 days before the game. Rafa is too stubborn, he has game plans that can't be altered. If we're crying out for something different after 55 minutes we wont see a change until the 70th minute. He wont give players like Kelly and Pacheco a chance yet when they've featured so far they've given the crowd a lift and they've given the team a lift. There are options for Rafa but he chooses not to use them. He sticks religiously to a 4-5-1 system most of the time even if Torres is unavailable. Kuyt proves he can do a decent job up front but is then shifted back to the wing to accomodate the system once Torres returns. He doesn't gamble enough, he's too compact, too tactical and not enough of a man manager or a motivator. You need these qualities to go 38 games and finish top, you need to inspire your players to perform away at Wigan and Stoke as well as at home to United and Everton and IMO this just isn't happening.

    5) The owners, debt and the future of the club

    This IMO is the fundamental problem at the club. The club currently exists to pay off its debts. The owner's don't care about us going to Old Trafford and winning, they care about a return and the ability to pay off the debts. They'd sell off Torres, Gerrard and Mascherano to save their own asses. The players don't know if we can ever get to the top level because they know deep down Rafa now has financial constraints imposed upon him. The American's have destroyed the soul of the club and until they leave we can't move forward.

    Your thoughts please?
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    Post by Pras_tama Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:31 pm

    only need 1 second to answer your question..no.5!!!!
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    Post by Aristoskank Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:43 pm

    Torres being largely unfit or out of form for most of the season.

    Despite a very respectable goalscoring record, Torres hasn't had the movement and energy of last season which presented such a threat for opposing defences, gave Gerrard more room, and covered to a degree for your lack of wingers.


    Plus Carragher's decline, the horror show that is Lucas, over £20 million spent on Kuyt and Babel without much to show for it, blah blah blah...
    Super Progress
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    Post by Super Progress Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:44 pm

    Good summary Luis and I think you are pretty much spot on in what you said. I didn't even notice Gerrard's decline until you pointed it out. It could just be a bad season, prompted by perceived lack of investment in the club following the sale of Alonso which broke up the holy trinity of Masherano-Alonso-Gerrard. I remember saying to a Man Utd friend of mine after the Alonso purchase was confirmed that we had just bought next seasons Liverpool title.

    I think Benitez has been way too poor with his tranfers and unlucky with Alonso. If Benitez hadn't been on his back(rightly though) then he would have probably still been at Liverpool. At the same time I think part of that criticism spurred him on to his great season last year so something of a paradox(I think) there.

    With regards to Aquilani it is something of a mystery to me. He is one of the most talented players of his generation in my opinion. I wonder why he hasn't gotten more of a chance because his talent is not in question. I think there is something behind the scenes going in his case. I do think Benitez will have to do something with his central midfield of Lucas-Masherano if they are to have a late surge this season.
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    Post by debaser Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:46 pm

    I blame the fans. They just haven't been singing YNWA with enough vigour No
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    Post by Kimbo Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:54 pm

    Rafa is the main reason. Let me explain squire.

    - He's shit in the transfer market and always has been, yes Torres was a good(if expensive) signing, but apart from that his attacking signings have been guff. He buys players that either don't fit his system(Keane and Bellamy) or he buys players that just aren't good enough like Babel, Kuyt, Aquilani, Ngog, Riera, and many others. His judgement in the market is gash in all ways, when it comes to how they will fit in, how much ability they have, and how much potential they have. I don't blame the owners for not trusting him with cash. Managers like Rafa are the reaason directors of football exist.

    - People say he is great tactically, i don't necessarily agree, his teams are one-paced and lack any fluidity. Stodgy is the word i would use to describe his tactics, and I think he's too stubborn and arrogant to change.
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    Post by Chris 23* Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:05 pm

    There are to many things wrong with Liverpool F.C. Luis has covered most of them, and the most importan ones.

    Decline of Players/Gerrard's Form one of the most effective reasons why we are shite Grr

    What's gone wrong at Liverpool? Gerrard_585x350_694931a

    That was a fair tackle By the Way.

    Ref's and slide tackles ey Luis Rolling Eyes
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    Post by Deluded F*ck™ Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:18 pm

    The Alonso sale forced them into finding a new pattern of play, Rafa hasn't reacted at all well to this i.e. persisting with a Lucas-Mascherano partnership (refuse to jump on Lucas' back when the "best DM in the world" has been just as bad if not worse this season), and continuing to play Kuyt whilst he was having a terrible time of it. Bad early results, lack of confidence & the crap has snowballed from there. Torrard half-fit, I'm not completely convinced of Gerrard's decline, but I AM convinced that Carragher ain't gonna be 'what he was is finished as long as he's not getting the right protection from CM.
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    Post by L r dd Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:05 pm

    Nothing has changed. Pool had 1 great month due to not being in cups while other teams had too many games...and people simply overated them to insane levels. What have Pool won or achieved in the last 2 years? NOTHING. So what's gone right? NOTHING.
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    Post by Glenarch of the Glen Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:06 pm

    the assumption was that it was Mascherano that made Alonso look good, while this season would suggest that the reverse is true.

    losing Arbeloa is overlooked by many and, had he stayed, he probably would have played 30+ games

    not replacing Keane has been an issue, and although Ngog has stepped up at times this season someone like Darren Bent would have been ideal. I wish we could have just swapped Keane for Bent in January like someone suggested

    Spending is an easy excuse, and Rafa hasn't been great in this area but it's worth noting that the net spend in the past couple of seasons is something like £2m so it's no surprise that the squad depth has suffered.

    The Alonso/Aquilani situation has been talked to death but I repeat that I'm yet to hear of any realistic alternatives. Of course the ultimate blame lies with Rafa, showing faith in Lucas is one thing, but not rectifying the situation in January was his call. Perhaps it was financial but also Lucas did go through a great spell of form around this time. When Rafa signed Voronin I was jumping up and down shouting "why not Tuncay?" but in this scenario I'm not sure I can think of anyone. A Gary McAlister/Henrik Larsson type signing was required but it's easier said than done. Carrick was one of the names touted in the summer but I never saw that happening.

    I agree with Lewis re Pacheco and Kelly, I don't know what more Kelly needs to do to start ahead of Mascherano at right back.
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    Post by Puro Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:25 pm

    I FUCKING SAID AS SOON AS REAL MADRID SIGNED XABI ALONSO THAT I WAS NOT LOOKING FORWARD TO LIVERPOOL'S '09-'10 SEASON FFS!

    I said that the Champions League was a foregone conclusion, and the all that was left to compete was the EPL title and the 'IN CASE SHITE HAPPENS' domestic they're all a waste of my fucking time and needlessly making them players play meaningless matches English cup competitions.

    XABI ALONSO WAS THE REAL "INSPIRATIONAL CAPTAIN" for Liverpool. The real field general, the one who could disguise Gerrard's game flaws, and the one who protected for the most part Carragher's amateurish defending.

    I remember so many saying that Gerrard was gonna have a monster season. lol! Gerrard can't play, he's got to be accomodated in a team just like Lampard and protected like Terry with real talented players. Xabi Alonso ain't there no more to clean up EVERY SINGLE ONE of Gerrard's fuck ups. No more! AND I KNEW IT AS SOON AS XABI ALONSO WAS GONE! Biggrin <Ale>
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    Post by L r dd Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:33 pm

    Gerrard did have a career before Xabi Alonso but he's been terrible this season. Any other club the fans would be going mad at him for his lack of effort and performance.
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    Post by Isco Benny Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:47 am

    ,


    Last edited by Rio England Braptain on Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by Isco Benny Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:03 am

    Puro wrote:I FUCKING SAID AS SOON AS REAL MADRID SIGNED XABI ALONSO THAT I WAS NOT LOOKING FORWARD TO LIVERPOOL'S '09-'10 SEASON FFS!

    I said that the Champions League was a foregone conclusion, and the all that was left to compete was the EPL title and the 'IN CASE SHITE HAPPENS' domestic they're all a waste of my fucking time and needlessly making them players play meaningless matches English cup competitions.

    XABI ALONSO WAS THE REAL "INSPIRATIONAL CAPTAIN" for Liverpool. The real field general, the one who could disguise Gerrard's game flaws, and the one who protected for the most part Carragher's amateurish defending.

    I remember so many saying that Gerrard was gonna have a monster season. lol! Gerrard can't play, he's got to be accomodated in a team just like Lampard and protected like Terry with real talented players. Xabi Alonso ain't there no more to clean up EVERY SINGLE ONE of Gerrard's fuck ups. No more! AND I KNEW IT AS SOON AS XABI ALONSO WAS GONE! Biggrin <Ale>

    Before you start rubbing yourself to climax,

    3 things:

    a) It's really no surprise Gerrard played better with Alonso in midfield than Lucas. This isn't rocket science. One is a world class player, the other is solely living off their Brazilian/South American "reputation". The clue is in the name. No decent, self respecting Brazilian flair footballer would choose to name themselves "Lucas". Might as well just call himself "Dwayne" and be done with it.

    b) Gerrard had a successful career at Liverpool prior to Xabi's arrival at the club. Championing a direct correlation between the Spaniard's role at the club and Gerrard's performances only serves your bias agenda, and infact doesn't hold up at all to scrutiny

    c) Gerrard is clearly disillusioned with the situation at Liverpool - the club's inability to win the title, the inability to build a settled team, losing Alonso, being over reliant on Torrard, the American owners, the debts, etc. I'd wager that has far more to do with Gerrard's performances this season than the loss of Alonso on the pitch.

    Food for thought. Although don't let it stop you championing that ABE agenda. I'm sure it won't Ale
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    Post by L r dd Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:14 am

    Rio England Braptain wrote:,

    Agreed. Not sure where he'd fit in though. Real Madrid were put off English dudes after the 3 amigos had a mixed time.
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    Post by UK_Andy Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:12 am

    I think the atrocious defeat to Wigan could be the final nail in the coffin for a number of Liverpool fans who had stuck with their support for Benitez throughout the season so far. Just read this interview with former Wigan manager, and Scouser, Paul Jewell who thinks fans wont put up with that kind of performance. I would not be surprised to see Rafa leave for the continent at the end of the season. An overhaul could be exactly what Liverpool need.
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    Post by Six Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:16 am

    God Hates us.




    ultimate victims
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    Post by fcb Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:52 am

    A 20-point solution from someone in the F365 mailbox:


    A Twenty-Point Plan To Fix Liverpool


    1. Get someone else to take corners. SG rarely beats the first man and is a decent header of the ball himself (not bad at picking up scraps on the edge of the box either!)

    2. Consider proper wingers - and let them get paint on their boots.

    3. Just one DM'll do it - especially against the Stokes of the world.

    4. Give your 20 mil players a few back to back games to bed in before you write them off.

    5. Players who get knocked over by a flea fart don't make good forwards.

    6. Running around like a mule on acid does not a footballer make.

    7. Defenders that chip in with the odd goal are a nice commodity.

    8. If it ain't fixed - bloody break it more. Do anything but nothing!

    9. A little humility when you get it wrong goes a long way.

    10. Know when to use sarcasm at press conferences - and when not to.

    11. Euro veterans on their last payday are not always better than the youngsters.

    12. Don't guarantee what you can't deliver.

    13. Give all players the "Lucas Opportunity" to prove themselves.

    14. Try players in their natural positions once in a while.

    15. Set-piece training is not overrated.

    16. Predictability is not a virtue.

    17. Skill players are not a blight on the game (see Nasri last night!)

    18. Square passes should be the last option.

    19. If you can see the grass growing between passes, your build up might be a tad slow. Laughing

    20. Real-time communication with players actually works from time to time!


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    Post by Fade out Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:54 am

    debaser wrote:I blame the fans. They just haven't been singing YNWA with enough vigour No
    cheers
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    Post by Tweesus Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:11 pm

    I blame the fans as well. Tehy're the one criticising Lucas when their anger should be aimed at Stevie Me.
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    Post by Isco Benny Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:29 pm

    Tweesus wrote:I blame the fans as well. Tehy're the one criticising Lucas when their anger should be aimed at Stevie Me.

    Why?

    Liverpool have for too long relied on Gerrard.

    He's remained at the club, obviously in the hope and expectation that they will build on previous successes and become a settled powerhouse capable of competing for the domestic title.

    And yet, they come 2nd in the league last year, sell his midfield partner, and look even less likely than ever to winning silverware.

    All the while teams like Chelsea and Man United either manage to hold onto their best players, or at least replace them adequately.

    Gerrard has given Liverpool and their fans a fuck of a lot, and most Pool fans know it. So if he were to leave next season, who could really blame him?

    Lucas, on the otherhand, has given them nothing so far. Except misery in highlighting just how much they miss Alonso
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    Post by Deluded F*ck™ Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:36 pm

    What about Mascherano & Carragher?

    Out of all the senior players Torres (when fit) is the only one performing anywhere near expectations.
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    Post by Tweesus Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:46 pm

    Rio England Braptain wrote:
    Tweesus wrote:I blame the fans as well. Tehy're the one criticising Lucas when their anger should be aimed at Stevie Me.

    Why?

    Liverpool have for too long relied on Gerrard.

    He's remained at the club, obviously in the hope and expectation that they will build on previous successes and become a settled powerhouse capable of competing for the domestic title.

    And yet, they come 2nd in the league last year, sell his midfield partner, and look even less likely than ever to winning silverware.

    All the while teams like Chelsea and Man United either manage to hold onto their best players, or at least replace them adequately.

    Gerrard has given Liverpool and their fans a fuck of a lot, and most Pool fans know it. So if he were to leave next season, who could really blame him?

    Lucas, on the otherhand, has given them nothing so far. Except misery in highlighting just how much they miss Alonso

    Lucas is a defensive midfielder being played out of position. Its not his fault that everyone expects him to be the alonso of the team. He isn't that sort of player scratch

    Gerrard is a winging, moaning twunt.
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    Post by debaser Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:53 pm

    Is it mere coincidence that the only players performing to standard this season are the Spaniards Torres and Reina?

    But with the sale of the Spaniards Arbeloa and Alonso, they cannot carry it alone.

    We all know the CL 2005 was won by the Spaniards Alonso and Garcia.

    And the FA Cup 2006 was won by the Spaniard Reina.

    The obvious solution this summer would be for Benitez to sign all the Spaniards he can find - they seem to be the only players he can manage or have any success with Ale

    (and no mentions of Morientes, Riera, Nunez, etc. These are merely the exceptions which prove the FACTS Wink )
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    Post by Isco Benny Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:17 pm

    Tweesus wrote:
    Rio England Braptain wrote:
    Tweesus wrote:I blame the fans as well. Tehy're the one criticising Lucas when their anger should be aimed at Stevie Me.

    Why?

    Liverpool have for too long relied on Gerrard.

    He's remained at the club, obviously in the hope and expectation that they will build on previous successes and become a settled powerhouse capable of competing for the domestic title.

    And yet, they come 2nd in the league last year, sell his midfield partner, and look even less likely than ever to winning silverware.

    All the while teams like Chelsea and Man United either manage to hold onto their best players, or at least replace them adequately.

    Gerrard has given Liverpool and their fans a fuck of a lot, and most Pool fans know it. So if he were to leave next season, who could really blame him?

    Lucas, on the otherhand, has given them nothing so far. Except misery in highlighting just how much they miss Alonso

    Lucas is a defensive midfielder being played out of position. Its not his fault that everyone expects him to be the alonso of the team. He isn't that sort of player scratch

    Gerrard is a winging, moaning twunt.

    Yeah but you still think he looks good in a pair of shorts though. Don't fight it Ale
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    Post by stinger Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:43 pm

    Luis wrote:He's spent at least 15 million on Aquilani, now to give an example from Everton, Moyes spent the same amount of money on Fellaini and so far he's proved to be a fantastic signing, he offers so much to their team.
    It took almost a year though for him, to feel comfortable in his natural position, it takes time for players (at least some of them) to adjust to PL. And with Fellaini we had a luxury of using his heading ability and size to push him forward, where his flaws (for Premiership) weren't so exposed, so he didn't have as poor 1st season, as it did look on beginning. You don't have this luxury with Aquilani, which is not helping the player, although he is much more experienced than Fellaini, so he should adjust easier, and perform adequately to his price tag.
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    Post by Romford Pele Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:45 pm

    Still not sure about playing Aquilani in that 4-2-3-1 formation. He's be better suited to the Gerrad role but we all know that won't happen.
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    Post by Chocolate Thunder Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:14 pm

    The Santa Stalker™️ wrote:
    Out of all the senior players Torres (when fit) is the only one performing anywhere near expectations.

    Reina. Consistent, dependable and saved our ass numerous times.

    All the players bar Reina have been below average to absolute garbage for massive parts of this season.

    Carragher has been a lot better recently however and Masch since January has been very good. That's it. Torres statsically has been excellent as well.

    Tweesus wrote:I blame the fans as well. Tehy're the one criticising Lucas when their anger should be aimed at Stevie Me.

    Of course you do. Anyone with a clue are blaming the club as a whole, it's rotton to the core. Rafa, the owners and David Moores first and foremost share the blame first and foremost.

    The only thing I'll say in Gerrard's defence is he has been playing with an injury, though saying that... I believe that Gerrard has basically been half arsed if not given up totally. Have said that plenty of times this season.

    Tweesus wrote:Its not his fault that everyone expects him to be the alonso of the team. He isn't that sort of player scratch

    Who expected that!?

    Lucas and his sideways passing is one thing. Not having the balls to attempt to play a a creative forward pass every now and again. Considering he was an AM at Gremio it surely isn't asking much isn't asking much. Just watch him, he'll play a square pass to Masch or back to Carra 99/100 times rather than play it forward.

    edit - Had a long response to Puro's 'tarded post last night written up, but why bother posting it I thought.
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    Post by Jaime Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:44 pm

    debaser wrote:Is it mere coincidence that the only players performing to standard this season are the Spaniards Torres and Reina?

    But with the sale of the Spaniards Arbeloa and Alonso, they cannot carry it alone.

    We all know the CL 2005 was won by the Spaniards Alonso and Garcia.

    And the FA Cup 2006 was won by the Spaniard Reina.

    The obvious solution this summer would be for Benitez to sign all the Spaniards he can find - they seem to be the only players he can manage or have any success with Ale

    (and no mentions of Morientes, Riera, Nunez, etc. These are merely the exceptions which prove the FACTS Wink )


    But the last time they won the league they actually had some English players in the team. Maybe they should buy some English guys.

    Think about it.

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    Post by stinger Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:54 pm

    Liverpool manager Rafael Benitez:
    "I am disappointed with the result but really pleased with the effort of the players. They were fantastic today. It is clear, particularly in this competition, you have to score away because it is an advantage. We were just not strong enough today but there is still 90 minutes to play. I am confident we can beat anyone at Anfield on our day with the fans behind us."
    Yikes

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