integration: should players sing national anthems

I would put Dieter Bohlen, Glööckler and Thommy into the stands - they will tell each player if he can go home or not!


But back to reality, i also don't like the excuses. If you have parents from two countries you still can sing the Anthem without disrespecting your other roots. And most players are even born in Germany in 2nd or 17th generation...

There are many people who don't like singing. They could always mime the anthem though. Maybe that is a solution?

I am not sure about other countries but what if you hate the queeen but love England, so while you are fully patriotic, you just don't want to sing about saving the queen? Maybe Ozil doesn't want to sing about the "fatherland", because while he is now a German, his origins are Turkish

110% wrote:There are many people who don't like singing. They could always mime the anthem though. Maybe that is a solution?

I am not sure about other countries but what if you hate the queeen but love England, so while you are fully patriotic, you just don't want to sing about saving the queen? Maybe Ozil doesn't want to sing about the "fatherland", because while he is now a German, his origins are Turkish

Land of Hope and Glory is the TRUE anthem.

Antarion wrote:I would put Dieter Bohlen, Glööckler and Thommy into the stands - they will tell each player if he can go home or not!


But back to reality, i also don't like the excuses. If you have parents from two countries you still can sing the Anthem without disrespecting your other roots. And most players are even born in Germany in 2nd or 17th generation...

I agree with this. I live in Australia but in addition to singing "Advance Australia Fair" I also sing "God Save the Queen" and the Argentine national anthem.

It's only the non ethnic Germans who don't sing.There-in lies the problem.Obviously they don't feel German or Fully German.

the back-pipe version of our anthem



---------

bernd

you will be glad to hear that my older brother, who lives in California with his American wife

is now

officially

an AMERICAN citizen



he was allowed to keep his German citizenship

but really had to request a special permit from the German government

demonstrating that he needed to get a US passport for professional purposes

-----------

meanwhile,

Bierhoff thinks anthem-singing should not be made compulsory in Germany, since FOREIGNERS like YOU LOT are still watching us VERY carefully

in view of our past

and we mustn't give the wrong impression that we have not learnt from our past

Sheffield gunner wrote:Serbia's football association says the midfielder Adem Ljajic has been suspended from the Serbian national team for failing to sing the nationalist anthem before a friendly against Spain.

The association said in a statement that Serbia's new coach, Sinisa Mihajlovic, "sent Ljajic home" because he did not comply with his rules, which stipulate players have to sing the anthem before matches.

The statement says that Ljajic, who is a Muslim, did not sing the anthem "because of his personal reasons". Serbia lost 2-0 against Spain in St Gallen in Switzerland on Saturday.

Ljajic was involved in an incident earlier this month with his former Fiorentina coach Delio Rossi, who slapped him as he returned to the bench after being substituted in a Serie A game. Ljajic had stuck his thumb up ironically.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/may/28/serbia-adem-ljajic-suspended-spain-friendly

A football association that Otto can identify with!

So let me get this straight. The Serbian FA will come down hard on a Muslim player with 'personal' reasons not to sing the national anthem, but it denies absolutely clear and blatant racism and then blames the victim of racist abuse for reacting to it when in fact that player had been pretty dignified in fact. And it wonders why people think it is a disgusting travesty.

interesting article about national symbols in Germany

or rather

it seems

Germans have always had problems with their national symbols

http://www.welt.de/kultur/literarischewelt/article110264402/Das-Problem-der-Deutschen-mit-Nationalsymbolen.html

(in German)

----------



interesting how utterly universal support for the anthem is

just look at the studio audience

poor Marcel Jansen has to be diplomatic, since he still yearns for a Mannschaft return under Löw

and again interesting to see that it's the oldish journalist, Kötter (sp ), who has problems with the anthem-Pflicht

it really is also a generational question in Germany

if the 68er have washed your brain, you are lost

I had two rather interesting chats here in Munich regarding "integration" with two chaps I know

one is a German Turk, born here

he's an old class mate of Ekici's (ie the Werder midfielder who was born in Germany but now plays for Turkey)

the other guy is a Romanian who moved to Germany 9 years ago, now speaks perfect German, not least since he went through the German school system

the Romanian has some fascinating insights since he first went to the Hauptschule (the place where you find the majority of "foreigners" in Germany including most of the "foreign" German footballers who refuse to sing the anthem, somehow then got his Mittlere Reife before getting his Fachabitur and then working for BMW in a management position); ie the lad knows ALL sides to the argument

my Romanian buddy now has a German passport and is fully integrated

but he says that at Hauptschul-level, where the majority of pupils have foreign roots, certainly in big city "Problembezirke", "real" German kids called Müller or Schmidt get seriously bullied and discriminated

in the past , they would get called Schweine-/Kartoffelfresser

it's less extreme than it was in the past, but since the pressure is massive to FIT IN, the "real" Germans at Hauptschule nowadays even invent FAKE "foreign" identities

ie, a Müller will tell his "Turkish..." class mates that his parents originally come from Poland, Russia or the Czech Republic, rather than "admit" that he is German

this is basically the background to the likes of Podolski, Boateng/Khedira.. (who have German mothers) refusing to sing the anthem

my Romanian buddy also says that Özil is now probably the most hated "Turk" in Germany

the majority of the ethnic Turks consider him to be a TRAITOR, which basically explains why the poor lad was whistled by the German-Turks when Germany played Turkey in BERLIN some time ago

as for my German-Turkish contact, the good boy told me that his friend Ekici decided to play for Turkey rather than Germany, where he was born, because of family pressure

in Turkish society, he says, you not only respect your elders, you often have to obey them as well + the ENTIRE family has a say in what you do

if Ekici's parents are less well integrated or don't feel at home in Germany, because of linguistic difficulties, they push their son to opt for Turkey and he will obey

the words my contact always uses, just like all the other "Turks" I know is

RESPEKT (respect)

and

EHRE (honour)

in others words

integration of the grandchildren of the first immigrants in Germany can be VERY difficult

if the parents or grandparents insist it's a question of honour or respect to be loyal to Turkey

frankly, both the German-Turk and the "Romanian"-German are both very eloquent and seemingly fully integrated and more than able to play to "German" rules

BUT

both have entirely different sets of values to me and my German buddies, it's insane

I may be a big fan of REAL GERMANS like Ballack, Lehmann, Frings, Sammer, Lothar....

but compared to them I am so ridiculously effeminate / soft /weak..., it's almost silly

these guys are REAL MACHOS (despite being softly spoken, when needed)

they can completely LOSE IT, when another man looks at their GF,

are more than willing to engage in brawls when they feel somebody looks at them the wrong way

the "Turk" is more than willing to DIE for his country (which rather confusingly means both Turkey and Germany),

the NATION is holy to them

honour and respect are everything to them

cars, the bigger the better, are all important to them

preferably , BMWs with 300+ horsepower

insult their mother and fear for your life

their GFs are treated like princesses as long as they ACCEPT their rules

....

again, these are the FULLY integrated "foreign-Germans", who CAN successfully play by local rules

if Claudia Roth knew what these guys make of her PC ideas, of feminism...

she would reassess her views of a multicultural dream society completely

anyway

both the Turk and the Romanian German agree that they would EXPECT any non-Turk/Romanian to SING THE ANTHEM in the Turkish/Romanian national team

in other words, they agree that most Germans with Migrationshintergrund expect something they would be unwilling to grant themselves in their parents' home countries

both also agree that it will take at least another full generation before integration really starts to become a success

--------------

meanwhile,

my own brother, who has been living and working in the USA for more than seven years now

now also has an American passport (he was allowed to keep the German one as well)

rather amusingly, he applied to work for the American diplomatic service, despite only having his American passport for about 6 months

and now got a job offer



in other words, my brother, who REFUSED to give up his German passport, still speaks "American" with a German accent, and has little respect for the American political system

could, if he decided to accept the offer,

now REPRESENT the USA and its "values" abroad



and is more than happy to do so

how many German-Turks would be happy to REPRESENT Germany and its values abroad

me wonders

Agree with most of these guys said and growing up in an area next to a ghetto, until my area became a ghetto as well, I can recognize all the same patterns. Danes are increasinly being "integrated" into the foreigners who they aspire to ressemble more than the other way around. This is of course cultural/societal madness. The problem ultimately is the native population. They don't believe in their nations sufficiently for others to respct their nation and certainly not enough to demand respect for their native nation/culture. Under such a situation immigration from more aggressive cultures should be halted right away.

I strongly disagree with this part though:

again, these are the FULLY integrated "foreign-Germans", who CAN successfully play by local rules

if Claudia Roth knew what these guys make of her PC ideas, of feminism...

she would reassess her views of a multicultural dream society completely

This is supremely naive. The multicult is not run on evidence. If it was it would have reevaluated integration/immigration a long time ago. They have more contempt for their own culture/nation than they do others. It is that simple. This is why when you raise questions of what is Danish culture(in your context German) they resort to themes like democracy,pluralism, tolerance. It is almost always things that are not rooted in your specific country( traits, regions, history, religion, race, culture).

In my honest opinion Germany is doomed for at least a generation. Germany needs an even that will strengthen nationalism and perhaps the coming conflict with the EU and the inevitable collapse of the welfare state will shake up enough ground but otherwise Germans are ripe for take over. I see the same problem in Sweden which is run by multicult fanatics but at the very least they now have a growing party that is anti-immigrant. I can't imagine this in Germany until some big event happens. A shame because I have to come respect German culture more with time and it deserves better.

Super Mourinho wrote:Agree with most of these guys said and growing up in an area next to a ghetto, until my area became a ghetto as well, I can recognize all the same patterns. Danes are increasinly being "integrated" into the foreigners who they aspire to ressemble more than the other way around. This is of course cultural/societal madness. The problem ultimately is the native population. They don't believe in their nations sufficiently for others to respct their nation and certainly not enough to demand respect for their native nation/culture. Under such a situation immigration from more aggressive cultures should be halted right away.

I strongly disagree with this part though:

again, these are the FULLY integrated "foreign-Germans", who CAN successfully play by local rules

if Claudia Roth knew what these guys make of her PC ideas, of feminism...

she would reassess her views of a multicultural dream society completely

This is supremely naive. The multicult is not run on evidence. If it was it would have reevaluated integration/immigration a long time ago. They have more contempt for their own culture/nation than they do others. It is that simple. This is why when you raise questions of what is Danish culture(in your context German) they resort to themes like democracy,pluralism, tolerance. It is almost always things that are not rooted in your specific country( traits, regions, history, religion, race, culture).

In my honest opinion Germany is doomed for at least a generation. Germany needs an even that will strengthen nationalism and perhaps the coming conflict with the EU and the inevitable collapse of the welfare state will shake up enough ground but otherwise Germans are ripe for take over. I see the same problem in Sweden which is run by multicult fanatics but at the very least they now have a growing party that is anti-immigrant. I can't imagine this in Germany until some big event happens. A shame because I have to come respect German culture more with time and it deserves better.

Its collapse is only inevitable if people allow it to happen. It is amazing how a vicious attack on the rights of poor people and the working class who have contributed (including immigrants who end up doing the work local people think beneath them) are the first to be attacked when capitalism proves itself incompetent. Working people and immigrants did not make the financial crisis happen and nor did the welfare state. Blame the bankers and politicians whose incompetence and on occasion criminal conduct caused this total mess. Instead of attacking the welfare state, stop bailing out useless banks. Let them go under. Isn't that what market forces says should have happened? Amazing how when it suits these pathetic and incompetent suits they hare happy for a 'socialist' solution to benefit themselves alone and then apply more rigorous austerity on ordinary people. Give the bail out money to the savers whose money was wasted by these incompetents or criminals and invest in the economy not in the wankers that call themselves bankers who should have been sent to Hades' domain. Follow Ecuador's solution. Jail the bankers and invest in their people. Remarkable how well the economies of countries that did that are performing compared to the austerity-led bullshit!

The collapse is inevitable and it will happen regardless of how this banking crisis turns out. It will happen because the pension system is a ponzi scheme and we are entering a period where it will finally collapse. We are already seeing signs of this because politicians want to save the pension system by raising the age and restricting some of it to the rich. This should have been done a generation or two ago but it didn't because it was too popular. Now it is too late.
The point of no return was reached a long time ago.

What you say is only relevant to those who defend the banks. Remember both the left and right wants/wanted to save the banks. I don't. I'm consistent on this topic. Let any bank fail that can't hold its own. But I'm also against the welfare state whether it is for the poor, middle class, or the rich. Let it fall as well.

With regards to immigrants not doing the work natives won't do. That means nothing. Natives will take any job. The question is at what price? Immigrants push down the price and subsequently natives will be less likely to take the job. It is economics 101. The reason immigration is pushed by both political wings is that the left want multiculturalism, dependent voters and the right get support from the business class that is dependent on cheap labor and help destroy unions.

Super Mourinho wrote:The collapse is inevitable and it will happen regardless of how this banking crisis turns out. It will happen because the pension system is a ponzi scheme and we are entering a period where it will finally collapse. We are already seeing signs of this because politicians want to save the pension system by raising the age and restricting some of it to the rich. This should have been done a generation or two ago but it didn't because it was too popular. Now it is too late.
The point of no return was reached a long time ago.

What you say is only relevant to those who defend the banks. Remember both the left and right wants/wanted to save the banks. I don't. I'm consistent on this topic. Let any bank fail that can't hold its own. But I'm also against the welfare state whether it is for the poor, middle class, or the rich. Let it fall as well.

With regards to immigrants not doing the work natives won't do. That means nothing.

I actually said the precise opposite of that. Immigrants were brought in to do jobs the 'natives' did not want to do. Those immigrants contributed to the economy. They paid their taxes and they made sure the work that needed doing was done. Amazing how they get blamed for pushing wages down when the employers choose to do that. Why? Because it divides the workforce and enables them to get away with it. Immigrants do not choose the wages paid. Blame employers for that.


Natives will take any job. The question is at what price? Immigrants push down the price and subsequently natives will be less likely to take the job. It is economics 101. The reason immigration is pushed by both political wings is that the left want multiculturalism, dependent voters and the right get support from the business class that is dependent on cheap labor and help destroy unions.

That is precisely what should not happen. The rich do not need the welfare state. They abuse it. The banks operated the Ponzi Schemes. Funny how they were rewarded with public money for doing that. Punish them not ordinary people. The left did not want to save the banks, especially using public resources that attacked ordinary people. I have no problem eliminating waste - no economy can afford it - but target the wastrels. Amazing how government officials and unaccountable departments can happily waste millions with no consequences. I know it is an exceptional case, but think about this. The current bill for 25 years of complete incompetence at best and possible criminal actions in the Lynette White Inquiry has cost somewhere in the region of £50m-100m. We still do not have anything approaching resolution of it. At best public officials did not do the job they were appointed to do to anything approaching the standard required. There were no consequences, just unaccountable procedures that waste more public resources at a time it cannot be afforded. Since the long overdue release of the Guildford Four in 1989 hundreds if not thousands of serious miscarriages of justice have been exposed. Nobody has been held accountable for them. They have cost public resources at least half a billion pounds at a conservative estimate. No government department will account for this. The FoI is useless - they only have to keep figures for 6 years. I know as I have made FoI requests about this. These buggers should have been audited and surcharged, especially in a case like Cardiff Five where it is plain that they have outrageously wasted public resources. At the very least these resources could and should have been put to far better use. Instead of that we are supposed to forget about this and give these incompetents a free pass. Not going to happen!

I understood you correctly but I misspelled. What I meant to say is that you were incorrect in saying that immigrants do the work natives won't do. They do it at a lower price. Labor competes against labor and employers compete against employers. This is economics 101. What you're describing is the labor theory of value. Natives get hired because they do the job at a lower price.

Anyway this thread is not about immigration but integration. So if you want to continue this discussion we should move it to the off topic section.