Xavi: Messi IS better then Maradona

Jaime wrote:

Hem fet un.. wrote:I know... but it still annoys these hugely biased agendas.. I have never said that Messi is better than Maradona.. he could become better, who knows, but he is still only 23 and has achieved more at that age than any current Real or Bayern player has.. And dont get me started on Laudrup.. great player (but not at the level of the Messis, Dinhos, Maradonas etc) but the verdict is still very much out on him as a coach.. One good year at getafe, doesnt make him a legend. He even admitted that Mallorca was very lucky against us, and lets face it, he hasnt been anywhere the level that Manzano had Mallorca performing at. So far, some good games, some bad games, overall a quite inconsistent performance (just like at his previous clubs)

What does Madrid have to do with anything? You lot are so paranoid.

]

Well since it is a Bayern fan and a Madrid fan who are most active with this bull..........

Bale is better than both Messi and Maradona.

I'm also in the dinho is the shit camp and i don't think best has surpassed him at his best yet, doubt he ever will.

but as far as the maradona comparison goes, he has won more at club level, playing at an incredible level while doing so, the only thing thats left for him to do in "win the world cup" if he does that while maintain the level he is at, i don't think it would be too far off to say he is as good are better than maradona.

Fenomeno wrote:Bale is better than both Messi and Maradona.

Bluenine said it best in his post

but talking about raw talent and not how the career pans out, Maradona is better, he does things no one could think of, infact I can name several players who are better than Messi when it comes to their natural talent (Kaka in his peak, Baggio, Totti even Cassano) among the ones I saw (I guess you can add Van Basten but I wasnt able to watch him play) but the difference is that their careers were not as successful as Messi's because of either injuries or chosing uncompetitive clubs. The difference is that Messi is almost always fit to play and his best asset is his consistentcy and he is backed up by a great squad (football ideology) whom he has been playing with since he was 13, so it is no surprise that he cannot translate that same form with Argentina.

1) @ kaka being more talented than Messi
2) he career was plagued by injuries so i don't know what you are talking about

Messi today scored his 100th goal in 117 games under pep, anyway you slice that its impressive.

Yes that is my point, his career was ruined by injuries, I was watching a replay of and the Milan derby from 2006 season, Kaka was unstoppable, he would score goals or create something whether you like it or not, did you forget how fast he was? infact he burned Messi once when he took the ball from his own goal and scored the other side... I think its sad people forgot about the old Kaka, I used to watch him day in day out eversince he joined Milan I never saw a player who could carry a team on his own like he did he had all the solutions to the most difficult defensive tactics, lets not kid ourselves and think he could only run the man gave great assists and was an amazing team player before anything else.

"did you forget how fast he was"

This

Pierre Littbarski wrote:

Kroos wrote:

Noah and the Bale wrote:

Kroos wrote:when he is dinho level call me

He's well on his way to surpass Ronaldinho.

Another season of him kicking ass at Barca already on the cards.

The only thing missing is a truly memorable World Cup. Plenty of time to have one.

Interestingly, don't think Dinho ever had an outstanding WC.

You think Dinho was better than Fat Ronaldo?

for me he will never reach dinhos level (for me dinho on his peak was the best player ever), messi really has not the overall game

messi is a stupid winger in my eyes, his game is very limited, always doing the same stuff

he never scored against a decent side in the cl, always rapes the shit out of smaller teams and teams like arsenal, they getting raped because they suit perfect the style of barca

and his stats in la liga where the other teams in the league hopeless overcharged when they play barca

dinho raped milan, chelsea on his own and he won the cl on his own, while messi is useless without support, dinho was his own support

ok he is still 23, but he wont improve much on his game, he will always do the same stuff again and again and again, drive into the box with small ball control, this guy bores the shit out of me

Dinho is for me the greatest too.

Messi will just carry on being very fast and good at dribbling - he won't become a genius.

The only true geniuses are Dinho and Totti ATM - Totti could never reach Dinho's level due to not having the exceleration.

What is your definition of a "genius" (in football) ?

Surely Zidane is more of a 'genius' than Ronaldinho, just look at their comparative success when neither had any pace (people forget how fast and strong Ronaldinho was at Barca IMO). Ronaldinho was more about having the guts to pull off playground/beach football moves in a professional setting, as well as pure technique. Zidane was far less showy but he was running big, big games even in his mid thirties. Totti managed to evolve his game to keep up with the changes to how a trequartista is used in the modern game. Ronaldinho hasn't shown he can do either of those things, he's just become a luxury player now. There's so many other players that have coped better with losing their pace too - Giggs, Figo, Scholes, Nedved, Seedorf etc. 'Genius' just isn't the word I would use to describe him.

Ronaldinho was more of an impact player though, even at his peak, than someone who would dictate a game. His greatest success always came from the left of the pitch at Barcelona. Look for example, at his poor showing in a deeper central position in the 2006 world cup. At Barca, other players would run the game - set the tempo, he'd find the final assist, rather than being involved earlier in the move.

none of those players were as good as him at his best, no where close, with the exception of zidane.

Luis wrote:I voted 'Yes'

Or he will be anyway. Maradona was/is a drug-addicted fat sell out. Messi will never let that happen to him. He is the epitome of class says I.

The youth of today

In case it's not too hard to understand, being short, fat and addicted to cocaine (and probably other things too) makes being a footballer harder not easier and makes him even more of a jaw-dropping legend.

Untouchable, as has been said here (not only by Bluenine, who I feared would be anti-Maradona, in his excellent post; good stuff from abundance and Six too).

Intoccabile, unantastbar, intouchable.

------------------------------------------

Some glorious highlights of Pele v Maradona :

2000
Fifa hold an online vote to name their official Player of the Century – but are unhappy when Maradona wins it. So they redraw the rules, giving the main award to clean-living Pelé and naming drug-mired Diego "Internet Player of the Century". At the ceremony, Maradona storms out before Pelé's speech.
Pelé: "I would have liked to have Maradona up on stage here with me, but it looks like he has already gone home ..." He says his award is deserved. "It's like with music. There are many different styles, many great musicians. But there is only one Beethoven. Only one who is above everybody else."
Maradona: "Pelé won by forfeit. I won the people's vote." Later, Maradona says Pelé had a gay affair with a coach at Santos. Pelé says he won't respond because of Maradona's "cocaine issues". A friend says: "Maradona made this accusation as a result of pure envy."

2005
Pelé says Argentinian Carlos Tevez only won the Player of the Year award in Brazil "because Robinho now plays in Spain".
Maradona: "Pelé's so sad. He has an opinion about everything. Maybe it's his time of the month. He's having his period. But then Pelé is like that: always with an opinion, always wrong."

2006
Maradona refuses to go to the World Cup opening ceremony: "I'm not here to look at bloody Pelé walking around."

2007
Maradona says he is anti-establishment. "I won't network and lick my way through Fifa. I won't do that, that would make me a total son of a bitch. Like Pelé."

2008
Pelé says Maradona should be stripped of all his honours. "Why is it Olympic athletes lose their medals when caught taking drugs, but not him?"

2009
Pelé says Maradona "could not kick with his right foot and did not score with his head. The only time he scored a big goal with his head it turned out he had used his hand."
Maradona: "What can I say? Pelé lost his virginity to a man."

2010
Maradona accuses Pelé of abusing South Africa. "A certain coloured gentleman who played No10 didn't believe that the World Cup could be played here. South Africa says: 'Yes it can'."
Pelé: "'I don't know why he speaks about me so much, he must be in love with me." Later adding: "He only took the Argentina job for money. Under him, they really struggle. But it isn't Maradona's fault. It is the fault of whoever put him in charge."
Maradona: "Pelé should go back to the museum. And stay there."

fcb wrote:

Pierre Littbarski wrote:

Kroos wrote:

Noah and the Bale wrote:

Kroos wrote:when he is dinho level call me

He's well on his way to surpass Ronaldinho.

Another season of him kicking ass at Barca already on the cards.

The only thing missing is a truly memorable World Cup. Plenty of time to have one.

Interestingly, don't think Dinho ever had an outstanding WC.

You think Dinho was better than Fat Ronaldo?

for me he will never reach dinhos level (for me dinho on his peak was the best player ever), messi really has not the overall game

messi is a stupid winger in my eyes, his game is very limited, always doing the same stuff

he never scored against a decent side in the cl, always rapes the shit out of smaller teams and teams like arsenal, they getting raped because they suit perfect the style of barca

and his stats in la liga where the other teams in the league hopeless overcharged when they play barca

dinho raped milan, chelsea on his own and he won the cl on his own, while messi is useless without support, dinho was his own support

ok he is still 23, but he wont improve much on his game, he will always do the same stuff again and again and again, drive into the box with small ball control, this guy bores the shit out of me

Dinho is for me the greatest too.

Messi will just carry on being very fast and good at dribbling - he won't become a genius.

The only true geniuses are Dinho and Totti ATM - Totti could never reach Dinho's level due to not having the exceleration.

What is your definition of a "genius" (in football) ?

From the examples he's given, players who presumably spend their entire career underperforming on the biggest stage and don't dare to offer any athletic attributes that might muddle that natural footballing talent. rolly eyes

Totti can be as genius as he wants playing for his home club and strolling around Serie A playing at a snail pace, but real genius are those who don't just show occassional flashes of it when they can be arsed, but actually produce on the biggest stages - namely the Champions League and International competitions. For such a genius, Totti hasn't really shown much on either. But then, perhaps consistent inconsistency, and mercurial performances are what make geniuses.

If so, Messi isn't a genius - he's a fucking machine. I know which player I'd rather have on my team

I dont know, Messi is obviously a great great player, but when I think of genius I think someone who you cannot contain, I have seen many games where Messi was denied from taking part in the game, I think he has a big disadvantage that he is small, so if a team can stop him from making mazy runs then that 50 percent of his game taken away. So when I mentioned Kaka before it is because he could always find a way to be effective and decisive, if they stopped him from running at them, he could play killer passes, or shoot from distance, or he can move the ball around smartly and bring the team forward, and even when he ran at defenders it was very difficult to stop him because he had a unique mix of strength balance and speed I have seen him knock down the likes of Puyol, Samuel, Ferdinand..etc with ease! For me he was more outstanding than Messi.

Six wrote:Surely Zidane is more of a 'genius' than Ronaldinho, just look at their comparative success when neither had any pace (people forget how fast and strong Ronaldinho was at Barca IMO). Ronaldinho was more about having the guts to pull off playground/beach football moves in a professional setting, as well as pure technique. Zidane was far less showy but he was running big, big games even in his mid thirties. Totti managed to evolve his game to keep up with the changes to how a trequartista is used in the modern game. Ronaldinho hasn't shown he can do either of those things, he's just become a luxury player now. There's so many other players that have coped better with losing their pace too - Giggs, Figo, Scholes, Nedved, Seedorf etc. 'Genius' just isn't the word I would use to describe him.

Ronaldinho still managed to play well against Inter in a couple of games from what I remember. He wasn't too bad either against Man Utd in the first leg. Ronaldinho has struggled more with loss of pace then others but problems that aren't football related have also been a part of the reason for his decline.

Cheb
I don't think Messi is a genius but neither do I think Kaka is. I think people are confusing fantastic with genius and it is a word that means different things to different people. I have never said Totti is the best player in the world but there is few players I would rather watch then Totti. Ronaldinho is one of them and Cassano another but I can't think of too many at the moment.

Allez
Great quotes
Maradona's constant refences to Pele's homosexuality.

Super Laudrup wrote:

Six wrote:Surely Zidane is more of a 'genius' than Ronaldinho, just look at their comparative success when neither had any pace (people forget how fast and strong Ronaldinho was at Barca IMO). Ronaldinho was more about having the guts to pull off playground/beach football moves in a professional setting, as well as pure technique. Zidane was far less showy but he was running big, big games even in his mid thirties. Totti managed to evolve his game to keep up with the changes to how a trequartista is used in the modern game. Ronaldinho hasn't shown he can do either of those things, he's just become a luxury player now. There's so many other players that have coped better with losing their pace too - Giggs, Figo, Scholes, Nedved, Seedorf etc. 'Genius' just isn't the word I would use to describe him.

Ronaldinho still managed to play well against Inter in a couple of games from what I remember. He wasn't too bad either against Man Utd in the first leg. Ronaldinho has struggled more with loss of pace then others but problems that aren't football related have also been a part of the reason for his decline.

Cheb
I don't think Messi is a genius but neither do I think Kaka is. I think people are confusing fantastic with genius and it is a word that means different things to different people. I have never said Totti is the best player in the world but there is few players I would rather watch then Totti. Ronaldinho is one of them and Cassano another but I can't think of too many at the moment.

Allez
Great quotes
Maradona's constant refences to Pele's homosexuality.

Agree re Kaka before he lost his pace - amazing.

That's 2 Milan greats who mysteriously lost their pace

Noah talking out of his arse re Totti - reached the final of both major tournies at Intl level - outperformed Zidane in one but let down by his team mates, won the other with most assists in the competiton.

By genius I mean the ones with vision - Ronaldinho's pass for Giuly in the San Siro, Totti's ability to see the defence splitting pass.

Zidane wasn't particularly a genius but perhaps the most talented/skillful footballer I've ever seen.

Pierre Littbarski wrote:

Super Laudrup wrote:

Six wrote:Surely Zidane is more of a 'genius' than Ronaldinho, just look at their comparative success when neither had any pace (people forget how fast and strong Ronaldinho was at Barca IMO). Ronaldinho was more about having the guts to pull off playground/beach football moves in a professional setting, as well as pure technique. Zidane was far less showy but he was running big, big games even in his mid thirties. Totti managed to evolve his game to keep up with the changes to how a trequartista is used in the modern game. Ronaldinho hasn't shown he can do either of those things, he's just become a luxury player now. There's so many other players that have coped better with losing their pace too - Giggs, Figo, Scholes, Nedved, Seedorf etc. 'Genius' just isn't the word I would use to describe him.

Ronaldinho still managed to play well against Inter in a couple of games from what I remember. He wasn't too bad either against Man Utd in the first leg. Ronaldinho has struggled more with loss of pace then others but problems that aren't football related have also been a part of the reason for his decline.

Cheb
I don't think Messi is a genius but neither do I think Kaka is. I think people are confusing fantastic with genius and it is a word that means different things to different people. I have never said Totti is the best player in the world but there is few players I would rather watch then Totti. Ronaldinho is one of them and Cassano another but I can't think of too many at the moment.

Allez
Great quotes
Maradona's constant refences to Pele's homosexuality.

Agree re Kaka before he lost his pace - amazing.

That's 2 Milan greats who mysteriously lost their pace

Noah talking out of his arse re Totti - reached the final of both major tournies at Intl level - outperformed Zidane in one but let down by his team mates, won the other with most assists in the competiton.

By genius I mean the ones with vision - Ronaldinho's pass for Giuly in the San Siro, Totti's ability to see the defence splitting pass.

Zidane wasn't particularly a genius but perhaps the most talented/skillful footballer I've ever seen.

If that's so, then Xavi is the genius that we are talking about, cause nobody does it better then him.

Xavi is a friggin' genius on his own but Totti's vision is more... visionary

INZAGHI IS GENIUSSSSSSSS!!!!!

Pierre Littbarski wrote:

Super Laudrup wrote:

Six wrote:Surely Zidane is more of a 'genius' than Ronaldinho, just look at their comparative success when neither had any pace (people forget how fast and strong Ronaldinho was at Barca IMO). Ronaldinho was more about having the guts to pull off playground/beach football moves in a professional setting, as well as pure technique. Zidane was far less showy but he was running big, big games even in his mid thirties. Totti managed to evolve his game to keep up with the changes to how a trequartista is used in the modern game. Ronaldinho hasn't shown he can do either of those things, he's just become a luxury player now. There's so many other players that have coped better with losing their pace too - Giggs, Figo, Scholes, Nedved, Seedorf etc. 'Genius' just isn't the word I would use to describe him.

Ronaldinho still managed to play well against Inter in a couple of games from what I remember. He wasn't too bad either against Man Utd in the first leg. Ronaldinho has struggled more with loss of pace then others but problems that aren't football related have also been a part of the reason for his decline.

Cheb
I don't think Messi is a genius but neither do I think Kaka is. I think people are confusing fantastic with genius and it is a word that means different things to different people. I have never said Totti is the best player in the world but there is few players I would rather watch then Totti. Ronaldinho is one of them and Cassano another but I can't think of too many at the moment.

Allez
Great quotes
Maradona's constant refences to Pele's homosexuality.

Agree re Kaka before he lost his pace - amazing.

That's 2 Milan greats who mysteriously lost their pace

Noah talking out of his arse re Totti - reached the final of both major tournies at Intl level - outperformed Zidane in one but let down by his team mates, won the other with most assists in the competiton.

By genius I mean the ones with vision - Ronaldinho's pass for Giuly in the San Siro, Totti's ability to see the defence splitting pass.

Zidane wasn't particularly a genius but perhaps the most talented/skillful footballer I've ever seen.

That's *exactly* what I expected you to say.

I don't think it's as simple as genius=vision. For me vision is just a single attribute, whereas a genius is a more comprehensive term to describe someone who is world class at many different attributes. Ronaldinho is certainly a genius. Messi is in some aspects - ball control, dribbling, finishing - but not at others - passing vision like you say. But I don't think that makes him "not a genius". Just a different type of "genius". And yes, Xavi is of course a genius if we stick to the "vision" definition.



@Super: I don't recall Ronaldinho ever playing against Inter for Barça. Even if he did, are you seriously trying to compare Mancini's 2006/2007 Inter to Mourinho's 2009/2010 version?

"Big team" depends on various circumstances at the time, not just the name of the club.

What about Messi against Man. Utd. in the CL final? Messi against Chelsea as an 18 year old, and then again a season or two later when Mourinho had Del Horno kick him off the pitch? What about Messi against Madrid on numerous occasions?

Ronaldinho epitomised everything about 'genius' from about 2006 through to 2006. Took sheer delight in watching him play, probably with a similar grin to him. Not sure that any other player will recreate that for me, Messi certainly doesn't.

Messi will probably go on to be far more productive (tho Ronnie is certainly no slouch in this department either), but I don't think he'll ever be half as exciting to watch for me than Dinho. Dinho could change a game with an incredible pass, trick, dribble, shot, he was 3D dimensional in his play in every sense of the word, and there was no predictability in his game. Given what he would attempt and pulloff, coupled with this consistency during those years, his play was truly a marvel.

Messi is incredible, but he does lack a bit of ingenuity, he's just so good at what he does, it doesn't hurt him; yet.

Pirlo is Genius!

Calidad wrote:Ronaldinho epitomised everything about 'genius' from about 2006 through to 2006. Took sheer delight in watching him play, probably with a similar grin to him. Not sure that any other player will recreate that for me, Messi certainly doesn't.

Messi will probably go on to be far more productive (tho Ronnie is certainly no slouch in this department either), but I don't think he'll ever be half as exciting to watch for me than Dinho. Dinho could change a game with an incredible pass, trick, dribble, shot, he was 3D dimensional in his play in every sense of the word, and there was no predictability in his game. Given what he would attempt and pulloff, coupled with this consistency during those years, his play was truly a marvel.

Messi is incredible, but he does lack a bit of ingenuity, he's just so good at what he does, it doesn't hurt him; yet.

This is the problem is it not Calidad (i.e. lack of longevity at the very top as to why Zizou will go down as the greater...) (not that I disagree)

dinho from 03-06, I've never seen a better footballer, in my years of watch this game.

wasn't too bad in 07 as well, single handedly kept us in the title race to the very end, only lost on head to head

Messiah wrote:dinho from 03-06, I've never seen a better footballer, in my years of watch this game.

wasn't too bad in 07 as well, single handedly kept us in the title race to the very end, only lost on head to head

But you still lost.

I'd define genius as a WTF moment. Which Messi doesn't do so often, with Messi, its more like shit that was good. And then, oh god, hes done it again.

Gourcuff's goal a few years ago strikes me, just because he knew exactly what he wanted to do, and no one could have anticipated it. I dont think it only has to be vision. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdVzzvMEG08

fcb wrote:

Pierre Littbarski wrote:

Super Laudrup wrote:

Six wrote:Surely Zidane is more of a 'genius' than Ronaldinho, just look at their comparative success when neither had any pace (people forget how fast and strong Ronaldinho was at Barca IMO). Ronaldinho was more about having the guts to pull off playground/beach football moves in a professional setting, as well as pure technique. Zidane was far less showy but he was running big, big games even in his mid thirties. Totti managed to evolve his game to keep up with the changes to how a trequartista is used in the modern game. Ronaldinho hasn't shown he can do either of those things, he's just become a luxury player now. There's so many other players that have coped better with losing their pace too - Giggs, Figo, Scholes, Nedved, Seedorf etc. 'Genius' just isn't the word I would use to describe him.

Ronaldinho still managed to play well against Inter in a couple of games from what I remember. He wasn't too bad either against Man Utd in the first leg. Ronaldinho has struggled more with loss of pace then others but problems that aren't football related have also been a part of the reason for his decline.

Cheb
I don't think Messi is a genius but neither do I think Kaka is. I think people are confusing fantastic with genius and it is a word that means different things to different people. I have never said Totti is the best player in the world but there is few players I would rather watch then Totti. Ronaldinho is one of them and Cassano another but I can't think of too many at the moment.

Allez
Great quotes
Maradona's constant refences to Pele's homosexuality.

Agree re Kaka before he lost his pace - amazing.

That's 2 Milan greats who mysteriously lost their pace

Noah talking out of his arse re Totti - reached the final of both major tournies at Intl level - outperformed Zidane in one but let down by his team mates, won the other with most assists in the competiton.

By genius I mean the ones with vision - Ronaldinho's pass for Giuly in the San Siro, Totti's ability to see the defence splitting pass.

Zidane wasn't particularly a genius but perhaps the most talented/skillful footballer I've ever seen.

That's *exactly* what I expected you to say.

I don't think it's as simple as genius=vision. For me vision is just a single attribute, whereas a genius is a more comprehensive term to describe someone who is world class at many different attributes. Ronaldinho is certainly a genius. Messi is in some aspects - ball control, dribbling, finishing - but not at others - passing vision like you say. But I don't think that makes him "not a genius". Just a different type of "genius". And yes, Xavi is of course a genius if we stick to the "vision" definition.



@Super: I don't recall Ronaldinho ever playing against Inter for Barça. Even if he did, are you seriously trying to compare Mancini's 2006/2007 Inter to Mourinho's 2009/2010 version?

"Big team" depends on various circumstances at the time, not just the name of the club.

What about Messi against Man. Utd. in the CL final? Messi against Chelsea as an 18 year old, and then again a season or two later when Mourinho had Del Horno kick him off the pitch? What about Messi against Madrid on numerous occasions?

When did I compare Mancini's Inter to Mourinho's Inter?

I was simply pointing out that Ronaldinho hasn't been totally crap which is a very unbalanced view of his time in Milan and that he has had some good games even against some of the better teams in the league.

Regarding Messi:

Man Utd final- Eto was the game changer in that one. After his goal everything changed and Man Utd opened up a lot more. The way Messi even got his goal would be unthinkable under normal circumstances. I mean a header in the little box with Vidic and Ferdinand. But he did get a goal but with the game in perspective im not too impressed.

Chelsea- What about that performance? He teared Del Horno a new one , allthough hardly an incredible feat, but didn't create a goal or change the game except for falling after Del Horno ran into him.

Madrid-Are you seriously saying that Real Madrid have been among the best in the last 5 years? When we get past the last 16 then we can start talking about us as being back among the big dogs. I mean just look at the team that have beaten us through the years. It was only Liverpool out of those teams that I would consider great and we still didn't do anything.

Super Laudrup wrote:

fcb wrote:

Pierre Littbarski wrote:

Super Laudrup wrote:

Six wrote:Surely Zidane is more of a 'genius' than Ronaldinho, just look at their comparative success when neither had any pace (people forget how fast and strong Ronaldinho was at Barca IMO). Ronaldinho was more about having the guts to pull off playground/beach football moves in a professional setting, as well as pure technique. Zidane was far less showy but he was running big, big games even in his mid thirties. Totti managed to evolve his game to keep up with the changes to how a trequartista is used in the modern game. Ronaldinho hasn't shown he can do either of those things, he's just become a luxury player now. There's so many other players that have coped better with losing their pace too - Giggs, Figo, Scholes, Nedved, Seedorf etc. 'Genius' just isn't the word I would use to describe him.

Ronaldinho still managed to play well against Inter in a couple of games from what I remember. He wasn't too bad either against Man Utd in the first leg. Ronaldinho has struggled more with loss of pace then others but problems that aren't football related have also been a part of the reason for his decline.

Cheb
I don't think Messi is a genius but neither do I think Kaka is. I think people are confusing fantastic with genius and it is a word that means different things to different people. I have never said Totti is the best player in the world but there is few players I would rather watch then Totti. Ronaldinho is one of them and Cassano another but I can't think of too many at the moment.

Allez
Great quotes
Maradona's constant refences to Pele's homosexuality.

Agree re Kaka before he lost his pace - amazing.

That's 2 Milan greats who mysteriously lost their pace

Noah talking out of his arse re Totti - reached the final of both major tournies at Intl level - outperformed Zidane in one but let down by his team mates, won the other with most assists in the competiton.

By genius I mean the ones with vision - Ronaldinho's pass for Giuly in the San Siro, Totti's ability to see the defence splitting pass.

Zidane wasn't particularly a genius but perhaps the most talented/skillful footballer I've ever seen.

That's *exactly* what I expected you to say.

I don't think it's as simple as genius=vision. For me vision is just a single attribute, whereas a genius is a more comprehensive term to describe someone who is world class at many different attributes. Ronaldinho is certainly a genius. Messi is in some aspects - ball control, dribbling, finishing - but not at others - passing vision like you say. But I don't think that makes him "not a genius". Just a different type of "genius". And yes, Xavi is of course a genius if we stick to the "vision" definition.



@Super: I don't recall Ronaldinho ever playing against Inter for Barça. Even if he did, are you seriously trying to compare Mancini's 2006/2007 Inter to Mourinho's 2009/2010 version?

"Big team" depends on various circumstances at the time, not just the name of the club.

What about Messi against Man. Utd. in the CL final? Messi against Chelsea as an 18 year old, and then again a season or two later when Mourinho had Del Horno kick him off the pitch? What about Messi against Madrid on numerous occasions?

When did I compare Mancini's Inter to Mourinho's Inter?

I was simply pointing out that Ronaldinho hasn't been totally crap which is a very unbalanced view of his time in Milan and that he has had some good games even against some of the better teams in the league.

Regarding Messi:

Man Utd final- Eto was the game changer in that one. After his goal everything changed and Man Utd opened up a lot more. The way Messi even got his goal would be unthinkable under normal circumstances. I mean a header in the little box with Vidic and Ferdinand. But he did get a goal but with the game in perspective im not too impressed.

Chelsea- What about that performance? He teared Del Horno a new one , allthough hardly an incredible feat, but didn't create a goal or change the game except for falling after Del Horno ran into him.

Madrid-Are you seriously saying that Real Madrid have been among the best in the last 5 years? When we get past the last 16 then we can start talking about us as being back among the big dogs. I mean just look at the team that have beaten us through the years. It was only Liverpool out of those teams that I would consider great and we still didn't do anything.

You really do dislike him, don't you?