CL Round of 16 - Arsenal vs. Barcelona match thread

Fake playmaker?

Agree slightly. But he's always been an impact player, and not a playmaker a la Rosicky or Wilshere. Was back to his first few seasons performances with us in the first half, not bad, but lacking that cutting edge and too predictable. Far better in the second half though.

I don't really see it as a negative thing that he's not a playmaker. Barcelon have 3/4 in their sqaud, thats enough!

I don't think anyone has ever said that Nasri is a dictator of tempo. The guy is a dribbler and despite his form this season, I still maintain his best position is the one Cesc is playing in - he's a lot more dynamic than our captain.

First half, Wilshere and Walcott were our best players in my opinion, so I wouldn't single out Nasri for criticism.

Also, i'm not really fussed he's not a playmaker. Cesc, Rosicky, Wilshere and even RVP to an extent are all playmakers - more than enough in my view.

Hlebagone wrote:

The Santa Stalker wrote:I think the biggest development from this is that Arsenal finally have a Goalkeeper

I'm gonna say it: Does his starfish tactics in one on one situations remind people of Schmichael?

Needs to intimidate his defenders (only Buffon has come close).

Between Wilshere & Nasri Fabregas can be replaced - the former for his playmaking (though I'm not sure about his longer passing)the latter for his final pass/goalscoring. And both can dribble, which is a skill Cesc has only been confident using in the last couple of years. He was a far more static player than Wilshere when he was younger.

It's gonna be really interesting to see what happens when Ramsey returns - he's due back in a week.

Romford Pele wrote:It's gonna be really interesting to see what happens when Ramsey returns - he's due back in a week.

Denilson could be the biggest loser when it's all said and done.

As well as Pep's subs being bad, Arsene's were very good - something we often criticise him for. The game was never a physical one so it wasn't a risk having Wilshere, Cesc and Nasri in the middle. We kept the ball better and this allowed us to build the attacks better. It's something I thought we could always get away with in certain home games.

The Santa Stalker™ wrote:

Romford Pele wrote:It's gonna be really interesting to see what happens when Ramsey returns - he's due back in a week.

Denilson could be the biggest loser when it's all said and done.

I'd like that, we can get shot of Diaby too because next season Frimpong will be on the scene.

Deluded F*ck™ wrote:

Romford Pele wrote:It's gonna be really interesting to see what happens when Ramsey returns - he's due back in a week.

Denilson could be the biggest loser when it's all said and done.

Or Diaby heaven forbid.

Think Coquelin might have a role in the first team squad next year too.

shazlx wrote:Where is all this Nasri hype homing from? Defensively he was great and he did great for the second goal plus a couple of sribbles but otherwise he was boring. He's still a fake playmaker...

What is wrong with you

Sometimes your sub-Littbarskian "fake controversialism" gets boring too

Nasri is coming back from an injury. Agree though that he isn't a wing-playmaker, um, like Pires maybe? Rather than 'fake-', faux-playmaker would be a better fit. But he started as one of the best playmakers for French under-19, under-21 and especially in L'OM, regularly setting up Cisse and Niang. In some games for Arsenal, he does set up a lot of chances but he's also willing to be on end of moves more. He isn't actually a cross-cross player like Nani or Bale, so statistically it might be difficult to prove this. Either way, best prospect for France after a long time. He looks the real deal to me.

Why hasn't Kas posted his post match thoughts?

Deluded F*ck™ wrote:

Romford Pele wrote:It's gonna be really interesting to see what happens when Ramsey returns - he's due back in a week.

Denilson could be the biggest loser when it's all said and done.

I think it could depend on whether Cesc stays or goes.

If he stays, then we'll be overloaded in midfield, and Denilson could possibly be the one to make way for Ramsey(No way will it be Diaby - Wenger rates him too highly for him to ever let him go). It's quite unfortunate for Denilson, it's quite rare that a player has to fight it out with not only 1, but 2 very special talents for a place in a team.

But if Cesc goes, then Ramsey will just take Cesc's place in the squad(yes I don't think Wenger will buy a replacement) and will be a serious contender to take over the role Cesc currently plays in IMO.

Ramsey has almost certainly improved while he has been injured, to the extent that he will seamlessly slot in to replace the team's key player

Fenomeno wrote:Nasri is coming back from an injury. Agree though that he isn't a wing-playmaker, um, like Pires maybe? Rather than 'fake-', faux-playmaker would be a better fit. But he started as one of the best playmakers for French under-19, under-21 and especially in L'OM, regularly setting up Cisse and Niang. In some games for Arsenal, he does set up a lot of chances but he's also willing to be on end of moves more. He isn't actually a cross-cross player like Nani or Bale, so statistically it might be difficult to prove this. Either way, best prospect for France after a long time. He looks the real deal to me.

He does, but I'd like to know how creative he was as a youngster, did he he really see things quickly and played penetrative passes(throughballs) with frequency?

My views on him are quite similar to Shazlx when it comes to his play-making ability. I consider him a ball retention expert and a top class match winner ie basically Hleb + goal scoring - quick thinking.

He's quite similar to RVP in a way that people consider them primarily creative players because of the players they were compared to(Zidane and Bergkamp). But they are more goal scorers and far less creative compared to those two legends. I remember nearly being killed on here for saying RVP is well capable of hitting around 30 goals a season injuries permitting,it was considered a ridiculous thing to say coz they never considered him a goalscorer.

RVP is ridiculously creative though!

Hlebagone wrote:RVP is ridiculously creative though!

Nah I don't think vision is a stand out quality of Robin. What he's become so good at is his link-up play and movement to evade going into 50-50 battles with CBs. Scoring ridiculous goals has always been part of his armory. Vision though....he's certainly not in the same league as Cesc or even Arshavin.

Edit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_zZ8WgcRFA

Standard youtube video. I take your point about link play, but you can't have link play as amazing as van persie's without having brilliant vision.

The Professor wrote:

Hlebagone wrote:RVP is ridiculously creative though!

Nah I don't think vision is a stand out quality of Robin. What he's become so good at is his link-up play and movement to evade going into 50-50 battles with CBs. Scoring ridiculous goals has always been part of his armory. Vision though....he's certainly not in the same league as Cesc or even Arshavin.

Have to disagree here. He might not pull out genuis passes like the chip over the top from Cesc to him yesterday, but I've seem him play a number of very difficult passes without looking up (vision), such as backheeled throughballs. Sure, his link up play is good, but it takes good vision to do it so effectively. He is always aware of where other players are around him. I've seen RVP play far more decisive passes than Arshavin.

The Professor wrote:

Deluded F*ck™ wrote:

Romford Pele wrote:It's gonna be really interesting to see what happens when Ramsey returns - he's due back in a week.

Denilson could be the biggest loser when it's all said and done.

I think it could depend on whether Cesc stays or goes.

If he stays, then we'll be overloaded in midfield, and Denilson could possibly be the one to make way for Ramsey(No way will it be Diaby - Wenger rates him too highly for him to ever let him go). It's quite unfortunate for Denilson, it's quite rare that a player has to fight it out with not only 1, but 2 very special talents for a place in a team.

But if Cesc goes, then Ramsey will just take Cesc's place in the squad(yes I don't think Wenger will buy a replacement) and will be a serious contender to take over the role Cesc currently plays in IMO.

If true (and there is enough evidence of Wenger's ludicrous and by now discredited loyalty to suggest you may be right) this is inexcusable.

Denilson may be limited, even "lazy and weak" as I think Shaz described him the other day but he has his reliable uses as a squad player, retaining and circulating the ball etc etc, often excellent in keeping possession and even scoring some valuable goals. He has been a good servant to the club and rarely if ever lets the team down, whereas the supposedly infinitely more talented, yet sickeningly overrated Diaby has failed whenever it has counted and traitorously spat all the faith entrusted in him back in everyone's face.

Yes, I think it indeed far preferable that we debate the relative creativity levels and styles of Robin, Cesc, Nasri and Arshavin.

Allez les rouges wrote:

shazlx wrote:Where is all this Nasri hype homing from? Defensively he was great and he did great for the second goal plus a couple of sribbles but otherwise he was boring. He's still a fake playmaker...

What is wrong with you

Sometimes your sub-Littbarskian "fake controversialism" gets boring too

Those italics don't really work - read it back to yourself.

Luis wrote:Why hasn't Kas posted his post match thoughts?

One of the most remarkable stats around is that Guardiola, who may very well win a 2nd Champions League title this season, has never won an away leg in the Champions League knockout round.

Pierre Littbarski wrote:

Allez les rouges wrote:

shazlx wrote:Where is all this Nasri hype homing from? Defensively he was great and he did great for the second goal plus a couple of sribbles but otherwise he was boring. He's still a fake playmaker...

What is wrong with you

Sometimes your sub-Littbarskian "fake controversialism" gets boring too

Those italics don't really work - read it back to yourself.

Yes, they do.

It's always funny getting a grammar lesson from you

Or should that be you?

Hlebagone wrote:

The Professor wrote:

Hlebagone wrote:RVP is ridiculously creative though!

Nah I don't think vision is a stand out quality of Robin. What he's become so good at is his link-up play and movement to evade going into 50-50 battles with CBs. Scoring ridiculous goals has always been part of his armory. Vision though....he's certainly not in the same league as Cesc or even Arshavin.

Have to disagree here. He might not pull out genuis passes like the chip over the top from Cesc to him yesterday, but I've seem him play a number of very difficult passes without looking up (vision), such as backheeled throughballs. Sure, his link up play is good, but it takes good vision to do it so effectively. He is always aware of where other players are around him. I've seen RVP play far more decisive passes than Arshavin.

It's amazing how we watch the same player yet see different things, but that's the beauty of the game.

RVP for me is more of an instinct player, he's less of a thinker compared to the Cescs, Tottis, Berkamps etc of this world. It's becomes more evident he needs more time to see a pass compared to those players when he plays in the hole(see the Partizan or wigan game this season for example). Our whole attacking game becomes very labored and slow. But he becomes a totally different player once he's moved closer to the opposition goal(i remember having this discussion with u that's that position he's best at some years ago), that's because he's at an area of the pitch where he can use both his instinct(which what his game is mostly about) and his thinking(which is quite good compared to the average player, but way off the genius level).

Arshavin, Rosicky, Wilshere, Bendtner(yes him) play far less on instinct compared to him(which makes them better creative passers IMO), and as such I consider them better options to play in the hole(the position where vision is most important).

Arshavin is 2nd only to Cesc when it comes to vision in our team IMO, and not far off the true masters IMO.

Allez les rouges wrote:

The Professor wrote:

Deluded F*ck wrote:

Romford Pele wrote:It's gonna be really interesting to see what happens when Ramsey returns - he's due back in a week.

Denilson could be the biggest loser when it's all said and done.

I think it could depend on whether Cesc stays or goes.

If he stays, then we'll be overloaded in midfield, and Denilson could possibly be the one to make way for Ramsey(No way will it be Diaby - Wenger rates him too highly for him to ever let him go). It's quite unfortunate for Denilson, it's quite rare that a player has to fight it out with not only 1, but 2 very special talents for a place in a team.

But if Cesc goes, then Ramsey will just take Cesc's place in the squad(yes I don't think Wenger will buy a replacement) and will be a serious contender to take over the role Cesc currently plays in IMO.

If true (and there is enough evidence of Wenger's ludicrous and by now discredited loyalty to suggest you may be right) this is inexcusable.

Becareful Allez, I'm sure u don't want to be eating humble pie like Pierre is doing now with Walcott

Wenger rarely gets it wrong when he persists with an outfield player.

Besides Diaby's talent is evident, he's not a subtle player say like Denilson(the talent is harder to spot, and not appreciated by many).

I mean it's very clear to see Diaby is very skilful, has immense physical qualities(height, pace, power etc), outstanding close control, very good shot technique etc In short, he has most of the tools a player needs to make it at the top level, but his problem is he's also more of an instinct player playing in midfield, so he will never be great in a position that requires him to run things, but he could be great playing a supporting role(basically a position that requires less thinking). We saw glimpses of what an immense player he could be last season. The question is whether that period of good form was a fluke, some fans(like u) probably think so and have given up whilst others(like myself and Wenger) don't think so. We all just have to wait and see because let's be honest, we all don't know with 100% certainty how a player will develop, not even Wenger knows, although he has a proven track record that he almost always gets it right. But again, he could get this one wrong, the future will tell.

Wow, surprised to see so many people specifically demanding my post-game thoughts
Sorry to disappoint you guys, was away for the past few days so I didn't get a chance to log on. But I did watch all the football this week, so here's my opinion on this game.



Basically, three words: Guardiola, you idiot

Keita for Villa? Really? A midfield runner for a striker?

When have you *ever* made that kind of negative substitution (apart from when there's 5 mins left in a game that we're already winning 3-0) in a previous match? So why do it now in a big game, when we were already fighting to keep control?

What the fuck was that 2nd half all about? All sideways and backwards passing, no urgency, no attempt to score a 2nd goal, trying to control a 1-0 lead. Futbol Club Barcelona, trying to protect a lead? Fuck off. Given the terrible away record in CL knockout games, all through the 2nd half I was just waiting for the inevitable equaliser to go in. Didn't expect the 2-1 though

People drawing comparisons to last year are wrong - that time it was more physical (esp. with Walcott coming on as a sub), this time it was tactical and mental errors from Barça. Arshavin and Keita coming on at the same time was a coincidence, but Guardiola should have immediately reacted to that, perhaps by bringing Afellay - or even Bojan - on.



Arsenal were very good. They showed something that many people - including me - never thought them capable of - getting the tactics for a match perfectly right.

They kept their lines close together, congested the centre of the pitch, remained patient despite extended Barça possession (some of which was just magnificent, even for me who watches every game...Arsenal made the spaces tight, but Xavi-Iniesta-Messi still moved the ball around well) and of course, already had the dangerous counter attacks and skill on the ball. Wilshere already got a lot of praise, but I'd also like to point out Koscielny's reading of the game was very good, and Scez-whatever was excellent. Alert to come off his line, and does the "invisible" things right, like on the early miss from Messi. Narrowed the angle, stayed big, didn't go down soon...it wasn't a miss by Messi, it was a "save" by Scez-etc. I still can't believe Wenger stuck with Almunia for so long. He was and is an utterly hopeless keeper for the top level. Does lots of basics wrong.



Now a lot of people are saying Barça are favourites for the 2nd leg and will still win easily, but I don't agree. I know I'll get the usual accusations of false modesty and trying to underplay hopes, but just like I was more and more nervous as we got close to this 1st leg, I'm very worried about us getting knocked out now.

The reason is not because of the 2-1. On the surface it's a reasonable scoreline for the away side and can be overcome. But the key aspect here is momentum, which is with Arsenal - if it was Arsenal leading 2-0 and we pulled back a late goal, I would be much more optimistic. But as it stands, it's Arsenal who will be on a high, whereas our players will start the 2nd leg under pressure. We already know Arsenal will kill us on the counter...I have no doubt they can score 2 goals at Camp Nou if we let them...if we're going to be more open and attack, it'll naturally open up more holes for them to exploit.

The main factor in Barça's favour - and I do believe this is a genuine possibility - is that Arsenal's players take it easy and think "ah well, even if we go out, at least we beat them in the 1st leg...we'll always have that". If this kind of mindset enters their players' heads. ie. they don't realise that it's only halftime and they still have to finish the job with another 90 mins of huge concentration and dedication like they showed on Wednesday...then Barça's chances of succeeding improve tenfold.


But as things stand, I personally am very worried that those 30-35 mins of over-cautiousness have put us in a very very difficult situation in the CL. I'd say it's 55-45 to Barça now, quite needlessly.

The Professor wrote:

Allez les rouges wrote:

The Professor wrote:

Deluded F*ck wrote:

Romford Pele wrote:It's gonna be really interesting to see what happens when Ramsey returns - he's due back in a week.

Denilson could be the biggest loser when it's all said and done.

I think it could depend on whether Cesc stays or goes.

If he stays, then we'll be overloaded in midfield, and Denilson could possibly be the one to make way for Ramsey(No way will it be Diaby - Wenger rates him too highly for him to ever let him go). It's quite unfortunate for Denilson, it's quite rare that a player has to fight it out with not only 1, but 2 very special talents for a place in a team.

But if Cesc goes, then Ramsey will just take Cesc's place in the squad(yes I don't think Wenger will buy a replacement) and will be a serious contender to take over the role Cesc currently plays in IMO.

If true (and there is enough evidence of Wenger's ludicrous and by now discredited loyalty to suggest you may be right) this is inexcusable.

Becareful Allez, I'm sure u don't want to be eating humble pie like Pierre is doing now with Walcott

Wenger rarely gets it wrong when he persists with an outfield player.

Besides Diaby's talent is evident, he's not a subtle player say like Denilson(the talent is harder to spot, and not appreciated by many).

I mean it's very clear to see Diaby is very skilful, has immense physical qualities(height, pace, power etc), outstanding close control, very good shot technique etc In short, he has most of the tools a player needs to make it at the top level, but his problem is he's also more of an instinct player playing in midfield, so he will never be great in a position that requires him to run things, but he could be great playing a supporting role(basically a position that requires less thinking). We saw glimpses of what an immense player he could be last season. The question is whether that period of good form was a fluke, some fans(like u) probably think so and have given up whilst others(like myself and Wenger) don't think so. We all just have to wait and see because let's be honest, we all don't know with 100% certainty how a player will develop, not even Wenger knows, although he has a proven track record that he almost always gets it right. But again, he could get this one wrong, the future will tell.

We've had this one before Prof and as I said on the Arsenal thread I won't continue because I'll simply lose my temper. Let's just say I don't think it's to your credit that you persist in defending the indefensible. (There was only one way we could possibly have contrived to throw away points the other day at St James's Park – and yes, he found it...)

I'll just say that the kindest I think that can be sad is here is a desperately wasted talent. It remains all encapsulated in what he does when he has the ball – as ever, to hold on to it too long, to over-elaborate selfishly before losing it. As a German fan perhaps the most significant improving statistic in the national team over recent years has been the decreasing amount of time the ball is held between each pass, from well over two seconds to 1.8 seconds to just 1.1sec at the last World Cup I think, only narrowly behind the victorious Spanish – the progression towards one-touch football, the ideal. Xavi said many fascinating things in his excellent Grauniad interview last week, but nothing, for me, more illuminating than his conjuring of the ideal of something even quicker in thought than that: “half a touch” (I can’t remember the Catalan).

Diaby is the very antithesis of this. It doesn’t take me to point out the vast and blessed difference in our team with Wilshere in it – and not him.

Real talk ^^^^

It's not to say Diaby isn't talented because that obviously isn't the case - I just think we play at our best when he's not in the side.

At the Nou Camp last season when we were a goal up, there was another chance to send Theo through and it really wasn't a difficult pass but he somehow contrived to screw it up. Had we gone 2-0 up at that time, it may have been a totally different game.

I think his attributes would be better suited to a side where he has less responsibility.