Sheva and Thierry

Unless Sheva scores two goals next week he will have had a worse start to his Chelsea career than Henry did in his career at Juve. Henry started 13 times for the Italians and scored 3 goals playing in midfield. Sheva has scored one goal and started 11 matches for Chelsea. Now, I am not for one minute suggesting that Sheva is overrated or that he is past it - I am highlighting the absurdity of those people who maintain that Henry 'failed' in Italy and that this is forever a scar on his reputation. It bugs me. Henry was a kid when he played for Juve and he played out wide and yet people persitently claim that his inability to hit top form meant that he couldn't 'hack it'. Of course, Sheva will find some form at some point - he is too good to be written off as a failure. Obviously it is too soon to judge him - it takes time to adjust to a new league and culture - and yet by the end of next week he will have started the same number of games for Chelsea that Henry started for Juve! IF Henry failed in Italy than Sheva has failed in the EPL! If Serie A was too high a standard for Thierry then the EPL is too high a standard for Sheva.

I think Sheva is having the same problems Rooney had, struggling for fitness since the World cup and its thus effected his confidence.

If he's still having these problems in a few months you may have a point but it does take a long time for players to adjust. Look at your Pires for an example.

My point is not that Sheva has failed - rather that he hasn't failed. And yet he has started the same number of games that Thierry started for Juve and people think of Henry as having failed in Italy. My point is that had Thierry stayed in Italy and made more than 13 starts he would probably have made an impact. There is no way Serie A was beyond Thierry - similarly there is no way the EPL is beyond Sheva.

Sheva's scored twice has he not?

1 v Liverpool
1 v Middlesborough

Hmmm, the difference is that Sheva has done it elsewhere beforehand whereas Henry played poorly for the first real big team he played for so people see it differently.

Can't compare the situations. Yes both are not playing in their right roles but Henry came into Juvel with zero expectations on his shoulders, Sheva came to Chelsea with a 30 million price tag.

S4P wrote:Sheva's scored twice has he not?

1 v Liverpool
1 v Middlesborough

That's true but do we count the Community Shield? I think of it as a pre-season firendly - even if it isn't officially.

Owen Thomas wrote:Hmmm, the difference is that Sheva has done it elsewhere beforehand whereas Henry played poorly for the first real big team he played for so people see it differently.

Yes but my point is that had Thierry had more time he may well have started to peform. Six months and 13 starts is just not long enough to judge whether or not a player will succeed in a league. Everyone knows this and yet many people forget this with reference to Thierry Henry. How many times have you seen on this board and on 606 'Henry couldn't hack it in Italy' or words to that effect. Hundreds. After only 13 starts Thierry has been declared a failure in Italy - all I'm saying is that if it applies to him it applies to Sheva. Obviously it applies to neither of them.

Freddie Or Not wrote:

Owen Thomas wrote:Hmmm, the difference is that Sheva has done it elsewhere beforehand whereas Henry played poorly for the first real big team he played for so people see it differently.

Yes but my point is that had Thierry had more time he may well have started to peform. Six months and 13 starts is just not long enough to judge whether or not a player will succeed in a league. Everyone knows this and yet many people forget this with reference to Thierry Henry. How many times have you seen on this board and on 606 'Henry couldn't hack it in Italy' or words to that effect. Hundreds. After only 13 starts Thierry has been declared a failure in Italy - all I'm saying is that if it applies to him it applies to Sheva. Obviously it applies to neither of them.

Personally I agree with you. I was just playing Devil's advocate. I'm not a huge fan of Henry - I think he's overrated but he still is a great player and he is ridiculously run down on this board.

Just an athlete comments are ridiculous.

I agree totally with the point of the thread about neither of them failing.

I think Sheva will start to do the business soon.

I disagree with the point that Serie A wouldn't have been beyond Henry - I think he would fail there.

He's had some good performances against Juve, Roma, Inter in CL but generally in Serie A teams won't attack and leave space like Roma and Inter did - they drop deep and let you have the ball in your own half and then you find a mass of bodies between you and the goal when you get in to their half.

I can't see how he would possibly succeed against this type of football.

He is also a player who has to have the ball regularly so our fast paced game suits him - if he was playing the slower game in Italy he might find that he has to do nothing for half an hour and then suddenly take a chance when it comes along.

I don't think even his biggest fan could say he is the sort of player who can do that.

Freddie Or Not wrote:

S4P wrote:Sheva's scored twice has he not?

1 v Liverpool
1 v Middlesborough

That's true but do we count the Community Shield? I think of it as a pre-season firendly - even if it isn't officially.

But then surely he's only played 10 games, not 11?

Pierre Littbarski wrote:I agree totally with the point of the thread about neither of them failing.

I think Sheva will start to do the business soon.

I disagree with the point that Serie A wouldn't have been beyond Henry - I think he would fail there.

He's had some good performances against Juve, Roma, Inter in CL but generally in Serie A teams won't attack and leave space like Roma and Inter did - they drop deep and let you have the ball in your own half and then you find a mass of bodies between you and the goal when you get in to their half.

I can't see how he would possibly succeed against this type of football.

He is also a player who has to have the ball regularly so our fast paced game suits him - if he was playing the slower game in Italy he might find that he has to do nothing for half an hour and then suddenly take a chance when it comes along.

I don't think even his biggest fan could say he is the sort of player who can do that.

I'm not saying he could do that- in fact I agree with what you said - but my piont that he was judged to harshly too quickly still stands. What you said is interesting and, I think probably correct, but his spell in Serie A shouldn't be used as evidence by those who claim he failed in Italian football. We cannot draw conclusions about a footballer after 13 starts.

All these stories about Henry failing when playing for Juventus are non sense. Henry played pretty well in his spell for Monaco. He was already one of the best scorers, alongside papin and co

Pierre Littbarski wrote:I agree totally with the point of the thread about neither of them failing.

I think Sheva will start to do the business soon.

I disagree with the point that Serie A wouldn't have been beyond Henry - I think he would fail there.

He's had some good performances against Juve, Roma, Inter in CL but generally in Serie A teams won't attack and leave space like Roma and Inter did - they drop deep and let you have the ball in your own half and then you find a mass of bodies between you and the goal when you get in to their half.
I can't see how he would possibly succeed against this type of football.

He is also a player who has to have the ball regularly so our fast paced game suits him - if he was playing the slower game in Italy he might find that he has to do nothing for half an hour and then suddenly take a chance when it comes along.

I don't think even his biggest fan could say he is the sort of player who can do that.

Is that not what teams normally do when they play us in the EPL? Sit deep, mostly in their box and pressure whenever we get in their half.

BTW: henry started 12 not 13 matches for juve.

Agooner wrote:

Pierre Littbarski wrote:I agree totally with the point of the thread about neither of them failing.

I think Sheva will start to do the business soon.

I disagree with the point that Serie A wouldn't have been beyond Henry - I think he would fail there.

He's had some good performances against Juve, Roma, Inter in CL but generally in Serie A teams won't attack and leave space like Roma and Inter did - they drop deep and let you have the ball in your own half and then you find a mass of bodies between you and the goal when you get in to their half.
I can't see how he would possibly succeed against this type of football.

He is also a player who has to have the ball regularly so our fast paced game suits him - if he was playing the slower game in Italy he might find that he has to do nothing for half an hour and then suddenly take a chance when it comes along.

I don't think even his biggest fan could say he is the sort of player who can do that.

Is that not what teams normally do when they play us in the EPL? Sit deep, mostly in their box and pressure whenever we get in their half.

BTW: henry started 12 not 13 matches for juve.

yeah was thinking exactly the same myself while reading that.. nice theory pierre but simply not reality...
also henry regularly ripped us apart when under houllier and early benitez management and you can hardly descirbe these setups as being much different to what henry would be experiencing in italy

COTR wrote:

Agooner wrote:

Pierre Littbarski wrote:I agree totally with the point of the thread about neither of them failing.

I think Sheva will start to do the business soon.

I disagree with the point that Serie A wouldn't have been beyond Henry - I think he would fail there.

He's had some good performances against Juve, Roma, Inter in CL but generally in Serie A teams won't attack and leave space like Roma and Inter did - they drop deep and let you have the ball in your own half and then you find a mass of bodies between you and the goal when you get in to their half.
I can't see how he would possibly succeed against this type of football.

He is also a player who has to have the ball regularly so our fast paced game suits him - if he was playing the slower game in Italy he might find that he has to do nothing for half an hour and then suddenly take a chance when it comes along.

I don't think even his biggest fan could say he is the sort of player who can do that.

Is that not what teams normally do when they play us in the EPL? Sit deep, mostly in their box and pressure whenever we get in their half.

BTW: henry started 12 not 13 matches for juve.

yeah was thinking exactly the same myself while reading that.. nice theory pierre but simply not reality...
also henry regularly ripped us apart when under houllier and early benitez management and you can hardly descirbe these setups as being much different to what henry would be experiencing in italy

I have also seen him rip psv apart on several occasion. Now that is the team that really master the art of frustrating their opponents, ask the likes of milan.

Agooner wrote:

Pierre Littbarski wrote:I agree totally with the point of the thread about neither of them failing.

I think Sheva will start to do the business soon.

I disagree with the point that Serie A wouldn't have been beyond Henry - I think he would fail there.

He's had some good performances against Juve, Roma, Inter in CL but generally in Serie A teams won't attack and leave space like Roma and Inter did - they drop deep and let you have the ball in your own half and then you find a mass of bodies between you and the goal when you get in to their half.
I can't see how he would possibly succeed against this type of football.

He is also a player who has to have the ball regularly so our fast paced game suits him - if he was playing the slower game in Italy he might find that he has to do nothing for half an hour and then suddenly take a chance when it comes along.

I don't think even his biggest fan could say he is the sort of player who can do that.

Is that not what teams normally do when they play us in the EPL? Sit deep, mostly in their box and pressure whenever we get in their half.

In my opinion, no.

Pierre Littbarski wrote:

Agooner wrote:

Pierre Littbarski wrote:I agree totally with the point of the thread about neither of them failing.

I think Sheva will start to do the business soon.

I disagree with the point that Serie A wouldn't have been beyond Henry - I think he would fail there.

He's had some good performances against Juve, Roma, Inter in CL but generally in Serie A teams won't attack and leave space like Roma and Inter did - they drop deep and let you have the ball in your own half and then you find a mass of bodies between you and the goal when you get in to their half.
I can't see how he would possibly succeed against this type of football.

He is also a player who has to have the ball regularly so our fast paced game suits him - if he was playing the slower game in Italy he might find that he has to do nothing for half an hour and then suddenly take a chance when it comes along.

I don't think even his biggest fan could say he is the sort of player who can do that.

Is that not what teams normally do when they play us in the EPL? Sit deep, mostly in their box and pressure whenever we get in their half.

In my opinion, no.

currently watching the inter-catania match and i can tell u , cantania aren't sitting any deeper than villa, city, sheff. utd etc did against us this season. Infact catania have attacked more in the first 40 minutes than those teams did in the entire 90.

It is a well known fact that the best way to play against us is to sit deep and harass us and we've had a lot of problems with that, hence why we are called one dimensional.

Oh God! typical Henry bashing again.

And I feel th need to defend him.

There is no way Henry would have failed in Serie A - hell 3 goals from 13 games as a left winger is a good return, esp for a 20 year old.

And as you mention he does well against Italian teams in the CL now, but your arguements are flawed if you think that merely because you have a thing for picking on Henry that he would have failed in Italy, Thats bullshit.

Tweedledum wrote:Oh God! typical Henry bashing again.

And I feel th need to defend him.

There is no way Henry would have failed in Serie A - hell 3 goals from 13 games as a left winger is a good return, esp for a 20 year old.

And as you mention he does well against Italian teams in the CL now, but your arguements are flawed if you think that merely because you have a thing for picking on Henry that he would have failed in Italy, Thats bullshit.

How can I debate when you make comments like this ?

Honestly, read it back to yourself.

* Back to the original point - I don't think Sheva has any problem playing in the prem and would be fine with Man U, Arsenal, possibly even Liverpool.

It should make people realise how good Drogba is - he turns aimless balls forward into great passes with his desire and physical qualities.

I'd like to see any other striker (Ronaldo, Henry, Eto'o included) play in front of that midfield and succeed.

Credit to Didier.

Hang on - I think Pierre has a decent point. I think he goes a step too far by saying that Henry would have failed...but his argument that Henry functions best when he has space in behind defences is valid. We all know that Henry loses his greatest attribute - pace - when teams sit deep and pack bodies behind the ball. Also, I think it is fair to assume that the fast paced game of the EPL suits Thierry perfectly - the more ponderous/thoughtful approach in Serie A would limit his impact somewhat...it was the same with the French team when Zizou was playing. Zizou was terrible for Thierry - Henry needs quick ball and early ball...Zizou liked to 'put his foot on the ball' and control the play. I expect to see a better Henry now that Zizou has retired. Still, what Pierre hasn't factored in is the ability to adapt and change your style of play. Who knows how Thierry would have turned out had he stayed in Italy. He might be a very different player - I'm pretty sure he'd still be a good player. He certainly is talented enough and clever enough to change his play depending on the opposition.

Great post!

Freddie Or Not wrote:Hang on - I think Pierre has a decent point. I think he goes a step too far by saying that Henry would have failed...but his argument that Henry functions best when he has space in behind defences is valid. We all know that Henry loses his greatest attribute - pace - when teams sit deep and pack bodies behind the ball. Also, I think it is fair to assume that the fast paced game of the EPL suits Thierry perfectly - the more ponderous/thoughtful approach in Serie A would limit his impact somewhat...it was the same with the French team when Zizou was playing. Zizou was terrible for Thierry - Henry needs quick ball and early ball...Zizou liked to 'put his foot on the ball' and control the play. I expect to see a better Henry now that Zizou has retired. Still, what Pierre hasn't factored in is the ability to adapt and change your style of play. Who knows how Thierry would have turned out had he stayed in Italy. He might be a very different player - I'm pretty sure he'd still be a good player. He certainly is talented enough and clever enough to change his play depending on the opposition.

Wasn't France and Henry struggling in that period after Zidane first retired and the time he returned. Part of the reason he did return.

Or was that more Domenech's mad tactics.

It's true when the old guard the retired the first time France struggled. I don't know why! I still expect Henry to score more without Zizou in the side.

True story.

Zidane is your classic no 10.

EPL teams don't really have that sort of player and Arsenal prefer to create as a unit with pass and move rather than have all the responsibility on one play maker (see how impotent Villarreal looked when Silva took Riquelme out of the game).

Freddie Or Not wrote:It's true when the old guard the retired the first time France struggled. I don't know why! I still expect Henry to score more without Zizou in the side.

simple; the team they were playing then was simply not good enough. Compare that team then to the present one, you'll see a bid difference in quality.confidence was also another factor affecting them.

I also agree that a team that plays in a very slow pace with a no. 10 doesn't get the best out of henry. I have seen a lot of the french team recently and henry has been their best forward.

Freddie Or Not wrote:It's true when the old guard the retired the first time France struggled. I don't know why! I still expect Henry to score more without Zizou in the side.

I do. We had shit like Pedretti, Boumsong and Dhorasoo in the team. And Cissé as well.