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    The ugly battle that undermines Ajax’s search...

    Machiavel
    Machiavel


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    Post by Machiavel Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:55 pm

    ... for a beautiful game

    From The Times

    The greatest rivalries are built on differences. So you had Muhammad Ali, all swaggering verbosity, taking on Joe Frazier’s prosaic brawler and Björn Borg’s mute Viking trading blows with John McEnroe’s prep-school brat.

    In football, you will struggle to find a more vivid contrast than the one between Ajax, the self-styled aesthetes and liberal champions of totaal voetbal, and that “bunch of antiSemitic dockers” from Rotterdam. The subtext to this enmity between Ajax and Feyenoord, two clubs separated by 43 miles, is one of the more bizarre in world football.

    “Hamas, Hamas — Jews to the gas,” the Rotterdam contingent chant at their counterparts. “We are Super Jews,” comes the reply. Stars of David bedeck the Amsterdam ArenA. “We’re not a Jewish club at all,” one disgruntled season-ticket holder and son of a Holocaust survivor said. “It’s just these bloody kids. They just want some sort of identity, but it’s insulting.”

    This adopted Jewishness is one quirk of a unique club. Another is the devotion to beautifying the game, underscored by the board’s policy statement committing Ajax to “creative, attacking and dominant football”, then there is the ugliness of its F-Side ultras.

    It takes two to tango, three to form a crowd and ten mounted policeman to cause chaos via a prematch cavalry charge. This was on Sunday, 90 minutes before the start of the most febrile fixture in the Netherlands and the Ajax fans waited beneath the railway station and the contempt of the police.

    As the huge yellow train containing all the Feyenoord supporters pulled in, bottles and firecrackers flew. Police dogs barked, the mob bayed, truncheons thudded. Eleven fans were arrested, three officers were wounded and one fan dressed in a white boiler suit and gas mask, and with a Feyenoord cockroach painted on his back, failed to merge into the background.

    It will be ten years ago next month when fans met in a field 20 miles from Amsterdam.

    One Ajax supporter, Carlo Picornie, was beaten to death in the so-called Battle of Beverwijk. That led to a nation-wide campaign — “Football: don’t mess it up” — and flowers were laid on Picornie’s seat. It made little difference, just as death and self-destruction in Italy are now seen as someone else’s problem.

    Three years ago, Jorge Acuña, the Feyenoord midfield player, ended up in hospital with head injuries after being attacked by Ajax hooligans at a reserve-team match. Robin van Persie, now at Arsenal, was narrowly saved from having to make the same trip.

    This classic rivalry is one that goes beyond football. “Amsterdam is the historic and cultural centre [of the Netherlands],” Ian Mackay, a resident for 30 years, said. “But Rotterdam is an industrial working city and not pleasing on the eye. It extends to politics, too. Until the last vote, Amsterdam was liberal to socialist, whereas Rotterdam has become more right wing, with Pim Fortuyn setting up his anti-immigration party in the city.”

    And then there is the football. Ajax have the history — four European Cups to Feyenoord’s one — the fabled system, a high defensive line and interchanging roles versus a decent work ethic and widespread sympathy; Ruud Krol’s father hiding 17 Jews in the flat above his café against Feyenoord being expelled from the Uefa Cup for hooliganism.

    Ajax are also peculiar for a big club in promoting so many local players. “In the old days you could go down to training and talk to Dennis Bergkamp through the netting,” Mackay said. That was when they were still at the old De Meer stadium, where Johan Cruyff’s mother washed the shirts.

    Now they have players such as Ryan Babel, who comes from Bijlmer, a rough area with a large immigrant community, by the ArenA. “This is where most players come from,” Jordy van Dort, the editor of the Football Derbies website, said. The merging of the parochial with a global appeal is a further string to the Ajax paradox.

    Another local, Edgar Davids, was back on Sunday and the fans loved it. One supporter said that Davids would have been in prison had it not been for football. Born in Surinam, he grew up in the insalubrious Amsterdam Noordt, where he later built a football pitch for local children.

    His presence, some 16 years after his debut, added to the vibrancy and he played well enough. Wesley Sneijder, the playmaker in a 4-2-1-3 system, scored a hat-trick as Ajax won 4-1.

    The clubs’ rivalry is born of jarring contrasts, jealousy, suspicion and prejudice, real and imagined. Sometimes its nuances sound like double Dutch, but the confused should refer to a 4-1 scoreline and the defining saying of the divide: “While Amsterdam dreams, Rotterdam works.”

    Rivals rating

    Atmosphere Fireworks, smoke, noise and colour, but the volume dropped a little when Ajax cantered into a 3-0 lead 7

    History Honours galore, including five European Cups, the furore caused by Ajax legend Johan Cruyff’s move to Feyenoord in 1983, and decades of mutual antipathy 8

    Ugliness Feyenoord fans were taken from the station into the ground via a covered walkway, but a mounted police charge caused panic beforehand 7

    Status It is eight years since Feyenoord won the title, but Ajax’s 4-1 win keeps them in contention for a first triumph since 2004. Still hard for Ajax to keep their best players 7

    Fan’s view Ranked higher than any English match on the Football Derbies website 8

    Total 37 (out of 50)
    SuperMario
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    Post by SuperMario Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:36 pm

    We're rated 3rd biggest rivalry in the world (outside city derbies)

    http://www.footballderbies.com/

    BTW Rai, do you have a link to the article?

    thanks beforehand.
    Machiavel
    Machiavel


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    Post by Machiavel Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:44 pm

    @ JDG

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/european_football/article1336946.ece
    SuperMario
    SuperMario


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    Post by SuperMario Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:47 pm

    Cees Keizer wrote:@ JDG

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/european_football/article1336946.ece

    Thanks will write the editor a letter. Pity they always confuse AntiAjaxness with AntiSemitism. That horrible Hamas chant originally is a Utrecht chant BTW. The outright majority of the stupid morons who sing it, aren't anti-Semites, they jsut want to insult Ajax in the muost hoorible way.
    Machiavel
    Machiavel


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    Post by Machiavel Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:54 pm

    jonathan de guzman wrote:
    Cees Keizer wrote:@ JDG

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/european_football/article1336946.ece

    Thanks will write the editor a letter. Pity they always confuse AntiAjaxness with AntiSemitism. That horrible Hamas chant originally is a Utrecht chant BTW. The outright majority of the stupid morons who sing it, aren't anti-Semites, they jsut want to insult Ajax in the muost hoorible way.

    I agree with you,

    Ajax is not a Jewish club, everyone knows before the Second World War Amsterdam had a big Jewish population, some ex-players were in fact well know members of the community including the legend Swart who i known to have heard suffered some abuse from the terraces.

    The F-Side use Jewish insignias to 'attract' anti-Semite abuse and hence find a excuse to fight .. just so wrong.

    JDG, here's a good read/s -

    Ajax and the Jewish Issue

    http://www.ajax-usa.com/desk/ajax-and-the-jewish-issue.html

    'We're Hunting The Jews!'

    http://www.ajax-usa.com/history/kuper/we-re-hunting-the-jews.html

    From the last link, you can find more links to this topic.
    SuperMario
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    Post by SuperMario Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:01 pm

    Thanks for the links.

    Sometimes people misunderstand the ugly sides of the rivalry.

    I'm 100% sure the outright majority of the Ajax fans who sing "when springtime comes we throw bombs on Rotterdam" or peole who made that banner, aren't nazi's or sypathizers. They're just morons who want to insult in the most horrible way.

    Same goes for those morons who sing "hamas, hamas".

    TBH I don't mind Ajax fans' Jewish identity, as long as I'm allowed to sing "who ain't jumping is a Jew" (I see absolutely no harm in that chant).
    Machiavel
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    Post by Machiavel Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:12 pm

    @ JDG

    Read: 'We're Hunting The Jews!'

    says it all .. both sides find any excuse to 'hurt' their opponent, even is the issue is sensitive.

    Some Israelis believe Johan Cruyff was Jewish ..

    "In Israel, Johan Cruyff was regarded as the man who saved Anne Frank." - Saggie Cohen, Israeli football analyst and doctor in philosophy

    Do the Israelis think Cruyff is Jewish?

    "Johan Cruyff is considered an 'Israeli of Honour'. If Cruyff would start a political party over here, he would definitely win two or three seats in the Knesset. Cruyff writes Hebrew, did you know that? During major tournaments, he sometimes contributes a column in one of Israel's major newspapers. Sometimes it says at the bottom: 'especially written for Israel'."

    Do the Israelis think Ajacieden are Jewish?

    Cohen: "No, no. We don't think they're Jewish. But we do award them that quality. We know exactly who they are, but we divide people in two categories: the ones who are with us and the ones who are against us. And we follow them.

    http://www.ajax-usa.com/history/kuper/israel-s-favorite-team.html
    SuperMario
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    Post by SuperMario Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:32 pm

    Good stuff

    Has Kuper ever written about the relationship between the Spuds' Yid Army and the F-Side?
    Machiavel
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    Post by Machiavel Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:22 pm

    jonathan de guzman wrote:Good stuff

    Has Kuper ever written about the relationship between the Spuds' Yid Army and the F-Side?

    Not that i am aware of .. but i expect him to mention it.
    SuperMario
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    Post by SuperMario Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:28 pm

    Cees Keizer wrote:
    jonathan de guzman wrote:Good stuff

    Has Kuper ever written about the relationship between the Spuds' Yid Army and the F-Side?

    Not that i am aware of .. but i expect him to mention it.
    Never read anything about it (read most of his stuff). He should have done better research, I have an old skool F-sider in my family in law. He told me the Yid Army where the F-isdes hero's and influenced them a lot (close to copying them). They had some ties too (both groups were 'friends').

    That's exactly my problem with Kuper he fails to recognise that Ajax wasn't 'Jewish' for while (or hardly, certainly it wasn't expressed outwards). They copied the adopting/exagerating their new/old identity.

    Kuper makes it sound like it the like the 'Jew identity' is a kind of Geuzennaam. This was not the case, It was copied from Spurs' Yid Army Firm, not adopted because of abuse by other fans.
    Machiavel
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    Post by Machiavel Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:37 pm

    jonathan de guzman wrote:
    Cees Keizer wrote:
    jonathan de guzman wrote:Good stuff

    Has Kuper ever written about the relationship between the Spuds' Yid Army and the F-Side?

    Not that i am aware of .. but i expect him to mention it.
    Never read anything about it (read most of his stuff). He should have done better research, I have an old skool F-sider in my family in law. He told me the Yid Army where the F-isdes hero's and influenced them a lot (close to copying them). They had some ties too (both groups were 'friends').

    That's exactly my problem with Kuper he fails to recognise that Ajax wasn't 'Jewish' for while (or hardly, certainly it wasn't expressed outwards). They copied the adopting/exagerating their new identity.

    Kuper makes it sound like it the like the 'Jew identity' is a kind of Geuzennaam. This was not the case, It was copied from Spurs, niyt because of abuse.

    I wont be surprised if they 'adopted' the styles.

    Even Swart, Krol and some others admit .. Ajax is not a Jewish Club, but if they adopt insignias and bring some 'memories' of the old community which was destroyed .. it would only do 'something' to repair its past. Still some F-Siders use it as a tool to start a fight.

    as hardcore fans F-Siders aren't that bad .. but if they want violence, they are just shameful and embarrassing, still this shows the 'weakness' of the other away fans who send 'anti-semitic' chants..
    SuperMario
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    Post by SuperMario Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:43 pm

    Cees Keizer wrote:
    jonathan de guzman wrote:
    Cees Keizer wrote:
    jonathan de guzman wrote:Good stuff

    Has Kuper ever written about the relationship between the Spuds' Yid Army and the F-Side?

    Not that i am aware of .. but i expect him to mention it.
    Never read anything about it (read most of his stuff). He should have done better research, I have an old skool F-sider in my family in law. He told me the Yid Army where the F-isdes hero's and influenced them a lot (close to copying them). They had some ties too (both groups were 'friends').

    That's exactly my problem with Kuper he fails to recognise that Ajax wasn't 'Jewish' for while (or hardly, certainly it wasn't expressed outwards). They copied the adopting/exagerating their new identity.

    Kuper makes it sound like it the like the 'Jew identity' is a kind of Geuzennaam. This was not the case, It was copied from Spurs, niyt because of abuse.

    I wont be surprised if they 'adopted' the styles.

    Even Swart, Krol and some others admit .. Ajax is not a Jewish Club, but if they adopt insignias and bring some 'memories' of the old community which was destroyed .. it would only do 'something' to repair its past. Still some F-Siders use it as a tool to start a fight.

    as hardcore fans F-Siders aren't that bad .. but if they want violence, they are just shameful and embarrassing, still this shows the 'weakness' of the other away fans who send 'anti-semitic' chants..
    I think hardly anyone of the old skool F-siders is into holliganism nowadays, same goes for old skool Vak S (who weren't all hooligans either, I had a season ticket for S for over 10 seasons -moved with a lot of old skool S'ers to T- never did anything wrong), most of them have a wife and kids and sit in a more quiet section. Even in the 80s (which were the worst years when it comes to hooliganism in Holland), you hardly saw older hooligans (like for example in the England).

    The main problems Ajax and feyenoord now have is with a new generation (who have nothing to do with the F-side or Vak S), who want to 'prove' themselves (by say attacking the Den haag fanhome).
    Machiavel
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    Post by Machiavel Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:52 pm

    Absolutely shameful what happened last season at the Den Haag fan base ..

    I just hope; 'revenge' is not in the air this weekend.
    SuperMario
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    Post by SuperMario Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:44 pm

    Cees Keizer wrote:Absolutely shameful what happened last season at the Den Haag fan base ..

    I just hope; 'revenge' is not in the air this weekend.
    did you see my post in the eredivise thread?
    Machiavel
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    Post by Machiavel Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:51 pm

    jonathan de guzman wrote:
    Cees Keizer wrote:Absolutely shameful what happened last season at the Den Haag fan base ..

    I just hope; 'revenge' is not in the air this weekend.
    did you see my post in the eredivise thread?

    What i fear: ’om de slachtoffers te laten merken dat we niet zijn vergeten wat er vorig jaar is gebeurd’.

    But there will be no Ajax fans?
    DD
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    Post by DD Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:53 pm

    Cees Keizer wrote:
    jonathan de guzman wrote:
    Cees Keizer wrote:Absolutely shameful what happened last season at the Den Haag fan base ..

    I just hope; 'revenge' is not in the air this weekend.
    did you see my post in the eredivise thread?

    What i fear: ’om de slachtoffers te laten merken dat we niet zijn vergeten wat er vorig jaar is gebeurd’.

    But there will be no Ajax fans?
    Because seeing the mug of an Ajax fan would be too painful.


    Stupid really. The whole thing. Right now. Without both parties.

    Besides, what the victims don't need is a dinner. They need compensation €.

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