should the Bundesliga become more DEFENSIVE ?

anybody watching Seria A , the EPL, the French league and the Bundesliga notices rather quickly one thing

irrespective of the speed at which the ball circulates, or even at which players pass and run about, there is no league quite so obsessed with attacking football as the Bundesliga

the Bundesliga concentrates on scoring goals whereas the other leagues value strong defences

the Bundesliga is about non-stop entertainment, whereas the other European leagues are more pragmatic (with the exception of La Liga)

the old argument that there are only more goals in the Bundesliga because the defences are crap is only partially true ; after all German sides tend to score rather freely in Europe against many of the so-called best defences as well

YET

top Bundesliga managers certainly could do a lot more to fortify their back-line, notably by deploying more stereotypical German caution

Schaaf , the German Wenger, is all about free-flowing attack and just does not manage to iron out those jitters at the back for good

Klinsi had the same problem

Bayern under Magath, and even now Hitzfeld, struggle to plug the leaks

HSV under Doll wanted to do a Bremen and refused to mix cement at the back even when they were in free-fall

Schalke have just lost 0:2 against the not very dangerous HSV

and so it continues

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these days it is the EPL ,which despite it's frantic speed , parks the bus at the back

Benitez and Mourinho stand in the tradition of Hiddink and Capello, or rather Vogts, Derwall and Beckenbauer, for whom a strong back-line was non-negotiable

"die Null muss stehen"

our German experts, still on honeymoon with Klinsi's old "we can always score one more" attitude discredited this ultra-pragmatic style as old-fashioned and have now embraced the current Bundesliga harakiri style

problem is, internationally it does not work at all, which is the reason for the lack of success of Bundesliga clubs in Europe

van der Vaart lauds the regime change at HSV under Stevens , saying:

"Der Trainer ist natürlich ganz wichtig. Er hat uns das Zutrauen zurückgegeben und legt viel Wert auf die Defensive. Und wenn man unten steht, ist das die Basis für den Erfolg."

ie, the difference between Doll and Stevens is that the Duchie values defence whereas the German did not

is it time German clubs should revert back to stereotype and build their teams FROM THE BACK and renounce Klinsi/Keegan's suicide style ?

Is it down to lack of quality, lack of tactics or both?

I'd say its just yactics myself as any decent manager can get a bunch of half decent players to deend well.

I think it yet again boils down to a lack of managerial quality in the bundesliga

the players are there, as you say yourself, it's not difficult to be composed at the back

so yes, it's about tactics

is it a question of Bundesliga manager quality ?

yes and no

for me, a GOOD manager is a SUCCESSFUL one

so yes, Schaaf, Slomka, Doll, Klinsi and Co had major weaknesses

yet, as I said above, it also has a lot to do with simple PREFERENCES, even fashion

in the press there is a boderline comtempt for the "don't concede any goals-style"

it's considered to be old-fashioned

Benitez , Mourinho and Hiddink would be mercilessy lambasted in the German press just as Trappatoni was hounded out of the Bundesliga, not least because fans HATED his style

even our German friends on here like blut and one or two others ridiculed the Voeller style , called Rumpelfussball

at Euro 2004, Voeller played with two DMCs and one striker (Kuranyi)

he was ridiculed for that (as well as his lack of success) and resigned

Lippi, Capello, Benitez, the French World Cup team and endless others employ the same set up with great success, even if fans don't like it

if the Bundesliga wants to make any impact at international level, we need to see more substance and less style, I fear

What seems old fashioned in Germany is still the predominant style in the rest of Europe, though what truly guarantees success is a flmaobyant side built on a solid backbone a la Inter and Man Utd this season.

The Bunesdliga have some class defenders: Mertesacker, Kompany, Van Buyten, Lucio, Naldo... - maybe its to do as well with the support they get from the forward players - all the best defences are built on a hardworking midfield in front of them.

Why did you bring this up otto? would you say the defensive frailties have been down to individual lapses in concentration or just a lack of defensive ability as a team?

Schaaf is not Germany's Wenger (Schaaf is Schaaf), and attacking football is what makes this league so attractive. It just lacks proper marketing.

Besides, with the exception of the usual chokers Hertha and Schalke (won't mention HSV because they had a full blown crisis in the first half of the season), the Bundesliga clubs are actually doing pretty well in Europe so far. And two of the clubs that are still in the European competition have an attacking philosophy, Werder and Leverkusen. Schalke, Hertha and HSV are not attacking teams per se, especially Schalke plays like a good old German team - strong defence, and efficiency up front, so I really don't know what you are talking about. Schalke's problem is that they simply haven't scored in the last few matches, they miss Lövenkrands badly.

Attacking football does not mean that you have to forget about defending, that's just nonsense. On normal form, Werder Bremen has one of the best defences in the league, despite being the most attacking side of the league. You can be both, it's not mutually exclusive.

Otto, you say Mourinho is too defensive, yet we average 2 goals a game (even away from home)

Wait a second Otto, you want to make the Bundesliga EVEN MORE Defensive?

Its boring enough as it is, you don't need to add to its worries.

Ballack wrote:Wait a second Otto, you want to make the Bundesliga EVEN MORE Defensive?

Its boring enough as it is, you don't need to add to its worries.

look at the number of goals of this match-day alone; it's all in the Bundesliga thread

the EPL would dream of stats like those

you Englanders have a saying: "it's raining cats and dogs"

in German we say (literally translated) : " it's shooting goals and goals"

@S4P

but Chelsea is built FROM THE BACK

which really is like it should be

Bremen are built from midfield and have no reverse gear

three guesses who is going to be more successful internationally, but is be more boring to watch

@ blut

name me the teams that SUCCESSFULLY combine a SOLID defence with an attack-mind approach, plenty of goals and international trophies to show for it

Barca in 2006: granted

and then ??

ottOld Shatterhand wrote:
@ blut

name me the teams that SUCCESSFULLY combine a SOLID defence with an attack-mind approach, plenty of goals and international trophies to show for it

Barca in 2006: granted

and then ??

Brazil (various, e.g. the 1994 WC winning side), Milan of the 90s, CL winning Real Madrid side of 2000 etc. pp. There are a ton of examples.

Besides, the best German national teams of all times, the 1972 EC winning one, and the 1974 WC winning one, were both attack minded, and solid in the defence at the same time. Especially the 1972 team (best team ever) was very attacking, yet conceded less goals than most other teams in the competition. The 'defensive' approach is a newer phenomenon in German football, started in the 1980s, and dominated for 2 decades. So it's simply not true if you say that this is the 'original German' way, that's actually a stereotype itself.

P.S.: Bremen do have a 'reverse gear'. Again, we do have some of the best defenders in the league. Our problem is that we basically are playing without a real DMC for months now, because Baumann, our captain and key player (this alone should tell you that Schaaf cares about defending, otherwise he wouldn't have made a DMC captain), is injured. Frings' role for Werder is different to his role for die Nationalmannschaft.

Good to see you lot are finally following Holland

We all know that the Eredivisie was and still is *the* most attacking league on the planet.

We've had these discussions about not being able to defend for decades, let's see if you can find some new points

Axeslammer wrote: Good to see you lot are finally following Holland

We all know that the Eredivisie was and still is *the* most attacking league on the planet.

maybe the reason why there are still many goals in the Eredivisie is that Hiddink and Stevens have left