Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

+19
110%
Knoblauch
Axeslammer
Since 1888
fcb
Glenarch of the Glen
S4P
Brian2468
Hardrada
gone
mongrel hawk
Machiavel
blutgraetsche
Sheffield gunner
zen and the art of
Puro
TM
Parks lives
bluenine
23 posters

    Greatest Football coaches of all time

    bluenine
    bluenine


    Number of posts : 22998
    Age : 50
    Supports : www.footballspeak.com
    Favourite Player : Zanetti
    Registration date : 2006-08-08

    Greatest Football coaches of all time - Page 2 Empty Re: Greatest Football coaches of all time

    Post by bluenine Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:04 am

    And Seedorf is the only player to win CL with 3 different teams! Is he greater than Eusebio/George Best?

    This is not about what records coaches have, this is about who was the most brilliant tactician/manager...

    zen and the art of wrote:Paisley, to my knowledge, is the only man to have managed 3 European Cup winning sides.

    todo wrote:Zagallo is the only man on earth who has won 4 World Cups.
    zen and the art of
    zen and the art of


    Number of posts : 299
    Age : 39
    Registration date : 2007-04-04

    Greatest Football coaches of all time - Page 2 Empty Re: Greatest Football coaches of all time

    Post by zen and the art of Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:07 am

    bluenine wrote:And Seedorf is the only player to win CL with 3 different teams! Is he greater than Eusebio/George Best?

    This is not about what records coaches have, this is about who was the most brilliant tactician/manager...

    zen and the art of wrote:Paisley, to my knowledge, is the only man to have managed 3 European Cup winning sides.

    todo wrote:Zagallo is the only man on earth who has won 4 World Cups.

    Slight difference between moulding and managing great teams than just being a member of them.

    Like I said: 3 European Cups (the only man to have managed teams to have won that many) and 6 leagues in the space of 9 seasons.
    bluenine
    bluenine


    Number of posts : 22998
    Age : 50
    Supports : www.footballspeak.com
    Favourite Player : Zanetti
    Registration date : 2006-08-08

    Greatest Football coaches of all time - Page 2 Empty Re: Greatest Football coaches of all time

    Post by bluenine Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:07 am

    Let me explain by reasoning out my list... there would be about 20-25 managers who have won a lot lot in europe/world football, and they all would be contenders.... so what separates them, what makes some greater than others?? Its what those coaches meant to football, how their startegies changed the way football used to be played... open any textbook on football strategies, and you will see the names of Helenio Herrera and Rinus Michels in them, coz these 2 probably chnaged the way football is played more than anyone else... they just redefined the game.

    Back to my list:

    1. Helenio Herrera - the "inventor" of Catenaccio!!

    He modified a 5-3-2 tactic known as the Verrou (door bolt) to include larger flexibility for counter attacks - and the Catenaccio was born - using the full backs (particullary Giacinto Facchetti) as wingbacks (defensively supported by the libero) to launch faster counter-attacks. Catenaccio and its hybrids are the MOST common tactical elements of modern football, almost every manager these days uses Herrera's methods to some extent or other. Mourinho's Porto were a textbook adaptation. He also pioneered the use of psychological motivating skills -his pep-talk phrases are still legendary. He was also one of the first managers to call the support of the "12th player" - the spectators, as that was an important part of his home-away strategy. While indirectly, this led to the appearance of the first Ultras movements in the late 60s. His impact as a manager can be observed by historical nomenclature - for the first time in history, a manager was mainly credited for his teams' performances. Till then teams were credited to players, like Di Stéfano's Real Madrid, whereas Inter FC during the 60s is still referred to as Herrera's Inter. Herrera's Inter won three Serie A titles, a Coppa Italia, two European Cups, and two Intercontinental Cups. Herrera was also successful with Barcelona, Atlético Madrid, and (to a lesser extent) AS Roma.

    2. Rinus Michels - the father of "Total Football"

    Michels is credited with the invention of a major football tactic known as "Total Football" in the 1970s, and was named "coach of the century" by FIFA in 1999 coz of the impact his brand of football had in the 70s. The only reason he is below Herrera in my list is that Total football in its pure sense is obsolete now, and that he did not get along very well with the players. Michels favoured a dominant and attacking style of play in which the offside trap played an important part, where players kept changing positions confusing the opponents. This style was perhaps born in an attempt to best use Cryuff in the best way possible, letting him roam into positions where he could do the opponent maximum damage. Rinus took over at Ajax when the club was in serious danger of relegation. When he left they were the premier side in Europe, the best. In 1988 he led Holland to their only major title, the European Championship Wink

    3. Ernst Happel: The foundation of modern attacking football

    Happel goes down in history as the first coach to win the European Cup with two different clubs, winning first with Feyenoord and then with HSV. He also won domestic titles in 4 different countries in europe (germany, belgium, austria, and holland)!! Infact, even his Club Brugge also reached the European Cup final... wonder what he would have done for a top team in the Big 3!! But what I give Happel the most credit for, is to "invent" the more practical hybrid of Total Football, the attacking format that the likes of Cryuff employed later in their managerial careers, and that we still see in world football. While he too used the offside trap heavily, his tactics were to make his team alternate between pressurizing their opponents and playing for possession, under no circumstances allowing the opposing team to settle in to their preferred game. His Holland lost the world cup final in 78, just like Michel's holland 4 years before, but to give Happel credit, he was working with "weaker" resources. From an evolution point of view, a Happel had to preceed a Sacchi, just like a Michels had to preceed a Happel, hence the order in my ranking.

    4. Arrigo Sacchi - the architect of Milan's golden era, more importantly, attacking football's renaissance

    I am surprised that this choice shocked people here... Coz Sacchi did define the attacking brand of calcio, cleverly mixing Herrero's catenaccio into the Happel style of football, advancing a part of the traditional "libero" duties into the midfield (the first modern holding midfielder was born). The system he favoured was too dependent on intelligent players like Baresi, Donadoni and Rijkaard (specially Rijkaard) that were able to preserve the balance between attack and defence, using one attacking fullback in young Maldini, and the roaming genius of Gullit. As one of the inspirers of the renaissance of attacking football in the early 90's, Sacchi certainly deserves to be included in this list of greatest ever football coaches. Ask any Milan fan, and he will tell you that while Capello's record breaking Milan were awesome, they were not like "that Milan". IMO, it was a team which has had the biggest impact on football ever since I have been watching this game (mid-80s).

    5. Béla Guttmann - The inventor of "4-2-4" formation

    The only coach to ever win the European Cup and Copa Libertadores. He did both, TWICE!! Bela was very much a product of the Danubian School of football, or the 'Scottish System', which favoured a short-passing game with the ball kept on the ground (as opposed to English 'Kick and Rush'). Guttmann took it to another level, favouring an dynamic and attacking style of play. He worked in nearly a dozen countries including Brazil, where he was instrumental in introducing the famed 4-2-4 system, which the Brazilians would go on to use to great effect during the 1958 and 1970 World Cups. He also took Benfica to two consecutive European Cup wins (1961, 1962), breaking Real's monopoly over the championship.

    By no means I am suggesting that these should be the top 5. This is just my opinion, being a keen student of football tactics and history. Just wanted to illustrate how these guys did a lot more apart from winning a lot of trophies. Sure, most of them must have stumbled on their invention due to the resources they had at their disposal (like Facchetti for Herrera, Cruyff for Michels, etc), but then there is a chance factor in every great invention... And of course there are others who also contributed a lot, most of them mentioned somewhere on this thread.... so much of this is subjective and opinion, we all understand that. But these 5 should make any top 10, that much I am convinced of.

    Phew, this must be the longest post I have ever researched and written!!

    Benetiz, anyone? Wink


    Last edited by on Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:16 am; edited 1 time in total
    fcb
    fcb


    Number of posts : 40471
    Age : 113
    Supports : FC Barcelona
    Registration date : 2006-08-11

    Greatest Football coaches of all time - Page 2 Empty Re: Greatest Football coaches of all time

    Post by fcb Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:55 am

    Super post bluenine. What are these "football strategies books" that you refer to? I'd like to read some.
    Since 1888
    Since 1888


    Number of posts : 5171
    Age : 35
    Supports : Sparta Rotterdam
    Favourite Player : Sepp de Roover
    Registration date : 2006-08-06

    Greatest Football coaches of all time - Page 2 Empty Re: Greatest Football coaches of all time

    Post by Since 1888 Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:22 am

    1. Denis Neville
    2. Barry Hughes
    3. van Gaal
    4. Michels
    5. ten Cate
    Axeslammer
    Axeslammer


    Number of posts : 19690
    Age : 52
    Supports : Leeds Utd / FC Groningen
    Favourite Player : Le Tiss, Bergkamp, Tadic, Eric le Roy
    Registration date : 2006-08-07

    Greatest Football coaches of all time - Page 2 Empty Re: Greatest Football coaches of all time

    Post by Axeslammer Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:23 am

    Since 1888 wrote:1. Denis Neville
    2. Barry Hughes
    3. van Gaal
    4. Michels
    5. ten Cate

    That really destroys the rest of the list....
    avatar
    Knoblauch


    Number of posts : 592
    Age : 40
    Supports : Sport Lisboa e Benfica
    Favourite Player : Lazer Markovic
    Registration date : 2007-03-01

    Greatest Football coaches of all time - Page 2 Empty Re: Greatest Football coaches of all time

    Post by Knoblauch Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:40 am

    bluenine wrote:
    1. Helenio Herrera - the "inventor" of Catenaccio!!
    2. Rinus Michels - the father of "Total Football"
    3. Ernst Happel - the only coach to win the European Cup with 2 different clubs
    4. Arrigo Sacchi - the architect of Milan's golden era
    5. Béla Guttmann - The inventor of "4-2-4" formation, only coach to ever win the European Cup (twice) and Copa Libertadores (Twice)!!

    Excellent list bluenine, but, maybe it should have been the 20/25 of all time. So many great ones hardly mentioned.
    avatar
    110%


    Number of posts : 8978
    Age : 50
    Registration date : 2006-08-07

    Greatest Football coaches of all time - Page 2 Empty Re: Greatest Football coaches of all time

    Post by 110% Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:58 am

    bluenine wrote:And Seedorf is the only player to win CL with 3 different teams! Is he greater than Eusebio/George Best?

    This is not about what records coaches have, this is about who was the most brilliant tactician/manager...

    zen and the art of wrote:Paisley, to my knowledge, is the only man to have managed 3 European Cup winning sides.

    todo wrote:Zagallo is the only man on earth who has won 4 World Cups.

    Surely the most brilliant tactician/manager is the one who is successful with his tactics. People talk about someone inventing "counter-attack', but actually that's what the team that is not as good in possession or goes ahead automatically plays. Are we going to hail spalletti's style of 4-6-0, it is kind of a new style (although I am sure that plenty of non-famous managers have used it same as all the other "invented styles") but using it they got hammered by manu and will come 2nd in serie A (only because both Milan and Juve were out of it).

    Paisley and Zagallo used a combination of tactics to win a hell of a lot. Those are great coaches. If you want some kind of invention, you can say they "invented" the style of winning.
    bluenine
    bluenine


    Number of posts : 22998
    Age : 50
    Supports : www.footballspeak.com
    Favourite Player : Zanetti
    Registration date : 2006-08-08

    Greatest Football coaches of all time - Page 2 Empty Re: Greatest Football coaches of all time

    Post by bluenine Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:22 pm

    the list I have mentioned are coaches who have won a lot too, as much as anyone else... They also brought about a revolution in tactics... the comparison to spalletti is very unfair, maybe if Spalletti wins 5-6 scudetti and a couple of CLs with his new tactics at Roma, resulting in clubs across the globe starting to use 4-6-0, and Spalletti's name becoming synonimous with all books/training on football strategy, then the comparison will be fair....

    Anyways, Paisley and Zagallo are good calls too, who will be your other 3??

    110% wrote:
    bluenine wrote:And Seedorf is the only player to win CL with 3 different teams! Is he greater than Eusebio/George Best?

    This is not about what records coaches have, this is about who was the most brilliant tactician/manager...

    zen and the art of wrote:Paisley, to my knowledge, is the only man to have managed 3 European Cup winning sides.

    todo wrote:Zagallo is the only man on earth who has won 4 World Cups.

    Surely the most brilliant tactician/manager is the one who is successful with his tactics. People talk about someone inventing "counter-attack', but actually that's what the team that is not as good in possession or goes ahead automatically plays. Are we going to hail spalletti's style of 4-6-0, it is kind of a new style (although I am sure that plenty of non-famous managers have used it same as all the other "invented styles") but using it they got hammered by manu and will come 2nd in serie A (only because both Milan and Juve were out of it).

    Paisley and Zagallo used a combination of tactics to win a hell of a lot. Those are great coaches. If you want some kind of invention, you can say they "invented" the style of winning.
    Since 1888
    Since 1888


    Number of posts : 5171
    Age : 35
    Supports : Sparta Rotterdam
    Favourite Player : Sepp de Roover
    Registration date : 2006-08-06

    Greatest Football coaches of all time - Page 2 Empty Re: Greatest Football coaches of all time

    Post by Since 1888 Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:09 pm

    Axeslammer wrote:
    Since 1888 wrote:1. Denis Neville
    2. Barry Hughes
    3. van Gaal
    4. Michels
    5. ten Cate

    That really destroys the rest of the list....

    He was great for Sparta. bounce
    Machiavel
    Machiavel


    Number of posts : 21355
    Age : 36
    Supports : AFC Ajax & Manchester United FC
    Favourite Player : Paul Scholes & Wesley Sneijder
    Registration date : 2006-08-06

    Greatest Football coaches of all time - Page 2 Empty Re: Greatest Football coaches of all time

    Post by Machiavel Fri May 11, 2007 2:53 pm

    Rai Krol wrote:1. Rinus Michels
    2. Ernst Happel

    3. Stefan Kovacs - for those who don't know him, the most successful league Football manager ever, also took Michels/Vic Buckingham idea of Total Football to the next level.

    4. Bob Paisley
    5. Helenio Herrera

    Lobanovskiy should get a honorary mention .. Legend Ale
    Cesc Soler
    Cesc Soler


    Number of posts : 9944
    Age : 39
    Supports : Arsenal FC
    Registration date : 2007-03-24

    Greatest Football coaches of all time - Page 2 Empty Re: Greatest Football coaches of all time

    Post by Cesc Soler Fri May 11, 2007 2:54 pm

    He coached Dynamo Kiev and Ukraine at the same time right?
    Machiavel
    Machiavel


    Number of posts : 21355
    Age : 36
    Supports : AFC Ajax & Manchester United FC
    Favourite Player : Paul Scholes & Wesley Sneijder
    Registration date : 2006-08-06

    Greatest Football coaches of all time - Page 2 Empty Re: Greatest Football coaches of all time

    Post by Machiavel Fri May 11, 2007 2:58 pm

    Cesc wrote:He coached Dynamo Kiev and Ukraine at the same time right?

    Yes he did , he also coached the USSR and Dynamo Kyiv at the same time aswell (got them to the Euro 88' Final)
    Forza Italia!Forza Milan!
    Forza Italia!Forza Milan!


    Number of posts : 4759
    Age : 45
    Supports : Italia and Milan
    Registration date : 2007-05-10

    Greatest Football coaches of all time - Page 2 Empty Re: Greatest Football coaches of all time

    Post by Forza Italia!Forza Milan! Fri May 11, 2007 8:09 pm

    bluenine wrote:To an extent even the greatest coach is only ever as good as the players at his disposal. Even the best of tacticians can't turn a dismal side into a championship winning team. However, some coaches have stood out from the crowd due to their ability to get the best out of their players, or because of their revolutionary approach to the game.

    Just to avoid people favouring current coaches/managers, lets make this about last century... Who do you think is the greatest football coach/manager of the 20th century??

    Please nominate your top 5.

    Mine would be:

    1. Helenio Herrera - the "inventor" of Catenaccio!!
    2. Rinus Michels - the father of "Total Football"
    3. Ernst Happel - the only coach to win the European Cup with 2 different clubs
    4. Arrigo Sacchi - the architect of Milan's golden era
    5. Béla Guttmann - The inventor of "4-2-4" formation, only coach to ever win the European Cup (twice) and Copa Libertadores (Twice)!!

    Honourable mentions:
    Matt Busby
    Helmut Schon
    Marcelo Lippi
    Valeri Lobanovsky
    Mario Zagallo
    Nereo Rocco
    Perrera
    Pozzo
    Cruyff
    Trapattoni
    Paisley
    Shankly
    Munoz


    The jury is still out on the likes of Capello, Mourinho and Hitzfeld.



    1) Marcello Lippi
    2) Rinus Michels
    3) Cesar Luis Menotti
    4) Arrigo Sacchi
    5) Shankly/Clough
    bluenine
    bluenine


    Number of posts : 22998
    Age : 50
    Supports : www.footballspeak.com
    Favourite Player : Zanetti
    Registration date : 2006-08-08

    Greatest Football coaches of all time - Page 2 Empty Re: Greatest Football coaches of all time

    Post by bluenine Fri May 11, 2007 9:56 pm

    I think I did give him a honourable mention - legend! ok

    Rai Krol wrote:
    Rai Krol wrote:1. Rinus Michels
    2. Ernst Happel

    3. Stefan Kovacs - for those who don't know him, the most successful league Football manager ever, also took Michels/Vic Buckingham idea of Total Football to the next level.

    4. Bob Paisley
    5. Helenio Herrera

    Lobanovskiy should get a honorary mention .. Legend Ale
    lampiao007
    lampiao007


    Number of posts : 1164
    Age : 52
    Supports : SL Benfica
    Favourite Player : Pablo Aimar
    Registration date : 2006-08-07

    Greatest Football coaches of all time - Page 2 Empty Re: Greatest Football coaches of all time

    Post by lampiao007 Fri May 11, 2007 11:33 pm

    Speaking of Guttmann.............http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/01/17/chelsea_be_warned_a_guttman_is.html

    Player

    MTK Hungária FC

    * Hungarian League: 2
    o 1919-20, 1920-21

    SC Hakoah Wien

    * Austrian Champions: 1
    o 1924-25

    New York Hakoah

    * U.S. Open Cup: 1
    o 1929

    [edit] Manager

    Újpest FC/Újpesti TE

    * Hungarian League: 2
    o 1938-39, 1946-47
    * Mitropa Cup: 1
    o 1939

    São Paulo FC

    * São Paulo State Champions: 1
    o 1957

    FC Porto

    * Portuguese Champions: 1
    o 1958-59

    SL Benfica

    * European Champions: 2
    o 1961, 1962
    * Portuguese Champions: 2
    o 1959-60, 1960-61
    * Portuguese Cup: 1
    o 1962
    * Inter-Continental Cup: 1
    o Runner-Up 1961

    CA Peñarol

    * Uruguayan Champions: 1
    o 1962
    avatar
    Formerly known as sheva7


    Number of posts : 1899
    Age : 40
    Registration date : 2006-08-07

    Greatest Football coaches of all time - Page 2 Empty Re: Greatest Football coaches of all time

    Post by Formerly known as sheva7 Sat May 12, 2007 4:04 am

    Good call, Puro. Telê Santana and Scolari are light years ahead of Zagalo.

    Sponsored content


    Greatest Football coaches of all time - Page 2 Empty Re: Greatest Football coaches of all time

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Nov 02, 2024 12:27 pm