Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

+8
Puro
Brian2468
DeLux
DS
SteveOoO
SuperMario
Rez
mongrel hawk
12 posters

    Tim Vickery on Copa América

    mongrel hawk
    mongrel hawk


    Number of posts : 4757
    Age : 44
    Supports : Corinthians
    Registration date : 2006-08-08

    Tim Vickery on Copa América Empty Tim Vickery on Copa América

    Post by mongrel hawk Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:41 am

    The romantics met the pragmatists in the final of the Copa America.
    Brazil's 3-0 win means that it was a resounding triumph for the pragmatists.
    Argentina coach Alfio Basile says again and again that he is not simply interested in winning - it matters to him how the victory is achieved.
    His critics would argue that he favours 1940s football, but all the way through the tournament right up until the final his side were looking good value in the 21st century.




    Tim Vickery on Copa América O

    Brazil's players have been built for explosion... quick breaks replaced the intricate passing moves of old




    Their patient passing game was a joy to watch, tiring the opponents and then turning on the talent in the second half.
    But it failed to spark against Brazil. And it didn't work for the very reasons that led to Brazil abandoning such a style in the 1980s.
    Argentina were outdone because they were unable to cope with the physical power and the speed on the counter-attack of the Brazilian side - weapons that were used against Brazil in the past, but now work firmly in their favour.
    Brazilian football was thrown into confusion by the great Holland side of 1974. The Dutch are remembered for their constant inter-changing of positions, but they also put enormous pressure on the opposition when they wanted the ball back.
    Brazil tried to copy them in 1978 and when that didn't work, they tried to turn the clock back under their last romantic coach, Tele Santana, in 1982 and 1986.
    The failure of Santana's side left deep scars. Current coach Dunga has referred to them as "specialists in losing."
    The conclusion was drawn that the physical and tactical development of the game made it much more difficult for a team to play its way through packed defences as Brazil had done in the past.
    Scared of the physical strength of the Europeans, the Brazilians set out to match it. Nowadays they claim their physical preparation specialists are the best in the world. Brazilian players have become bigger and stronger.
    When they finally faced Germany in a World Cup match, in the 2002 final, they did so at no physical disadvantage. On Sunday in Maracaibo they won the key 50-50 balls, especially the one in which Julio Baptista was able to free Daniel Alves to cross for the vital second goal.




    Tim Vickery on Copa América _44000485_riquelme203 Riquelme shows his frustration on a bad night for Argentina


    Brazil's players have been built for explosion and the style of play reflected this. Quick breaks replaced the intricate passing moves of old.
    Brazil had five shots to Argentina's eight and lost the corner count eight to four, but they won the game because the pace of their counter-attack was too much for the Argentina defence.
    And because at the other end Brazil were able to hold Argentina with a midfield based more on lung power than finesse.
    Defence and midfield stayed compact, Mineiro and Josue kept snapping away, and Argentina were stopped by fair means, and by foul.
    Brazil's total of 37 fouls was high, but the objective was achieved. The niggling stoppages prevented Argentina from building up their rhythm.
    But pragmatic does not necessarily mean defensive - as arch-pragmatist Dunga showed when injury meant he had to substitute Elano in the first half.
    Brazil were already a goal up, and some coaches might have been tempted to bring on holding midfielder Fernando.
    Instead Dunga introduced flying right-back Daniel Alves and played him on the right of midfield.
    It was his pace on the counter that brought Brazil their second and third goals and puts another cup in their bulging trophy cabinet.
    YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED

    Got a question about South American football for Tim Vickery? Email him at vickerycolumn@hotmail.com
    Having looked at the sublime footballing skills of Argentina in this year's Copa and the emergence of even more promising youngsters in the Under-20 World Cup in Canada, do you see Argentina being the team to beat in the next decade or so, provided Alfio Basile utilises the experience and youth well?
    Shafkat Mahbub
    A question that was sent before Sunday's final, but it opens up an interesting area - what do Argentina do now? The lack of titles is eating away, several of the side need to be replaced soon and they also have to convince themselves and their public that they have what it takes to win something.
    The purists - I'll put myself among them - will be hoping they continue on current lines. They have some players coming through - passing midfielder Ever Banega, little striker Sergio Aguero - who fit into the current philosophy.
    I do think they need more height and power - Racing Santander centre-back Ezequiel Garay could be a good long term bet, perhaps Gonzalo Higuain of Real Madrid can develop into Crespo's replacement up front, because I think a target man was also missed against Brazil.
    I liked what I saw in Venezuela of Javier Mascherano and Fernando Gago in the same midfield, so maybe that combination has a future.
    I used to watch the Copa America to be able to spot a future Brazilian star and I was spoiled by the likes of Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos, Ronaldinho and Adriano. This year all I see is an average, boring team with an average, boring coach. What has happened to Brazil's famous conveyor belt of world-class players?
    Marcus Chew, Ireland
    Another one that was sent before the final! The talent is still there, but as the article above tries to explain, the collective end product is not as pleasing on the eye as it used to be.
    The big hope for Brazilian central midfield is Lucas, now of Liverpool - who is big and strong, but also talented, and loves to burst forward.
    And the best of all is 17-year-old striker Alexandre Pato, who has been touched by the hand of genius.
    avatar
    Rez


    Number of posts : 3757
    Age : 40
    Registration date : 2006-10-06

    Tim Vickery on Copa América Empty Re: Tim Vickery on Copa América

    Post by Rez Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:01 pm

    As always a very good article by Vickery, everything he says is correct.

    He totally lauds Pato, is he really that special?

    I saw this comment on a blog and I think this posters suggestion could solve the Argies problem in a big game;



    Is there anyone else here who thinks that argentina and riquelme in particular should do what milan and pirlo do?



    Both pirlo and riquelme are both exceptionally gifted footballers with vision and creativity but lack the one characteristic needed in the final third of the field...pace.



    When pirlo started out at brescia and inter he was deemed a classic number 10, however he never seemed to be able to realise his potential when played behind a front 2 and often ended up on the bench or on loan somewhere. Ancelotti saw something and converted him into a deep lying playmaker.



    I reckon that riquelme can do the same. Riquelme in front of the argentinian defence flanked on the left by cambiasso and on the right by mascherano or lucho gonzalez.
    Have messi at the front of the diamond and crespo and tevez up front.



    So long as argentina use attacking full backs (sorin could come back and do this on the left and zanetti could probably play forever on the right) and at least one target man to complement the smaller lighter tevez/messi etc.. this formation should work a treat and maximise the creative talents of both riquelme and messi.
    SuperMario
    SuperMario


    Number of posts : 16866
    Age : 57
    Supports : Feyenoord & Arsenal
    Favourite Player : Diego Biseswar
    Registration date : 2006-11-10

    Tim Vickery on Copa América Empty Re: Tim Vickery on Copa América

    Post by SuperMario Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:14 pm

    What a pile of Cr@p. He's right about soem changes in Brazilian footy, but this is scoreboard journalism, ie writing something based on (and/or explaining) the final scoreline.

    Ayala's 5th minute howler v Baptista changed the entire match. Most counterattacking teams look great once 0-1 up.

    Vickery would have written a completely different story if the Argies would have beaten Brazil, "Triumph of Romantics over pragmatism"
    avatar
    SteveOoO


    Number of posts : 446
    Age : 39
    Registration date : 2006-08-29

    Tim Vickery on Copa América Empty Re: Tim Vickery on Copa América

    Post by SteveOoO Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:49 pm

    jonathan de guzman wrote:What a pile of Cr@p. He's right about soem changes in Brazilian footy, but this is scoreboard journalism, ie writing something based on (and/or explaining) the final scoreline.

    Ayala's 5th minute howler v Baptista changed the entire match. Most counterattacking teams look great once 0-1 up.

    Vickery would have written a completely different story if the Argies would have beaten Brazil, "Triumph of Romantics over pragmatism"

    Err.. yeah he isn't going to explain Argentina's loss if they win the game is he.
    SuperMario
    SuperMario


    Number of posts : 16866
    Age : 57
    Supports : Feyenoord & Arsenal
    Favourite Player : Diego Biseswar
    Registration date : 2006-11-10

    Tim Vickery on Copa América Empty Re: Tim Vickery on Copa América

    Post by SuperMario Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:08 pm

    SteveOoO wrote:
    jonathan de guzman wrote:What a pile of Cr@p. He's right about soem changes in Brazilian footy, but this is scoreboard journalism, ie writing something based on (and/or explaining) the final scoreline.

    Ayala's 5th minute howler v Baptista changed the entire match. Most counterattacking teams look great once 0-1 up.

    Vickery would have written a completely different story if the Argies would have beaten Brazil, "Triumph of Romantics over pragmatism"

    Err.. yeah he isn't going to explain Argentina's loss if they win the game is he.
    Long term trends are not dependent on 1 match. Brazil had everything going their way this final. He draws far too big conclusions from a single match.
    DS
    DS


    Number of posts : 12952
    Age : 38
    Supports : Manchester United , Bayern Munich
    Registration date : 2006-08-07

    Tim Vickery on Copa América Empty Re: Tim Vickery on Copa América

    Post by DS Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:39 pm

    I agree based on the score not on the match and style.
    DeLux
    DeLux


    Number of posts : 4399
    Age : 37
    Supports : Celta Vigo
    Favourite Player : Mostovoi, Xavi, David Silva, Valerón, Raúl
    Registration date : 2006-08-10

    Tim Vickery on Copa América Empty Re: Tim Vickery on Copa América

    Post by DeLux Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:40 pm

    jonathan de guzman wrote:What a pile of Cr@p. He's right about soem changes in Brazilian footy, but this is scoreboard journalism, ie writing something based on (and/or explaining) the final scoreline.

    Ayala's 5th minute howler v Baptista changed the entire match. Most counterattacking teams look great once 0-1 up.

    Vickery would have written a completely different story if the Argies would have beaten Brazil, "Triumph of Romantics over pragmatism"

    Listening to the match on Italian TV, the commentator said something along the lines that Dunga had watched videos of Argentina playing and specifically Ayala's defending, where he's being outdone by the ball played over his head (against Chelsea as well).
    avatar
    Brian2468


    Number of posts : 4875
    Age : 64
    Registration date : 2006-08-06

    Tim Vickery on Copa América Empty Re: Tim Vickery on Copa América

    Post by Brian2468 Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:22 pm

    jonathan de guzman wrote:What a pile of Cr@p. He's right about soem changes in Brazilian footy, but this is scoreboard journalism, ie writing something based on (and/or explaining) the final scoreline.

    Ayala's 5th minute howler v Baptista changed the entire match. Most counterattacking teams look great once 0-1 up.

    Vickery would have written a completely different story if the Argies would have beaten Brazil, "Triumph of Romantics over pragmatism"


    What is he meant to say?? The Romantics of football are going to suck and play second fiddle to Brazil for the next 20 years. By not bringing up Argentina's past to strongly it is obvious he sees the same footprint going forward. If there is a magic team to report the story more would of been different.....To many people are looking for sensasionalism reports or the need for more HYPE in there diet........... Laugh
    mongrel hawk
    mongrel hawk


    Number of posts : 4757
    Age : 44
    Supports : Corinthians
    Registration date : 2006-08-08

    Tim Vickery on Copa América Empty Re: Tim Vickery on Copa América

    Post by mongrel hawk Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:32 pm

    If I was European, I would be praying for my team to sign him, cause he will certainly be one of the greatest players in the planet.

    Bon voyage Rossi wrote:He totally lauds Pato, is he really that special?
    mongrel hawk
    mongrel hawk


    Number of posts : 4757
    Age : 44
    Supports : Corinthians
    Registration date : 2006-08-08

    Tim Vickery on Copa América Empty Re: Tim Vickery on Copa América

    Post by mongrel hawk Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:34 pm

    brazil had everything going their way in the last 3 times they played Argentina:

    4 - 1

    3 - 0

    3 - 0

    you think that's normal? large scores like that used to be very rare in this derby for both sides.


    jonathan de guzman wrote:
    SteveOoO wrote:
    jonathan de guzman wrote:What a pile of Cr@p. He's right about soem changes in Brazilian footy, but this is scoreboard journalism, ie writing something based on (and/or explaining) the final scoreline.

    Ayala's 5th minute howler v Baptista changed the entire match. Most counterattacking teams look great once 0-1 up.

    Vickery would have written a completely different story if the Argies would have beaten Brazil, "Triumph of Romantics over pragmatism"

    Err.. yeah he isn't going to explain Argentina's loss if they win the game is he.
    Long term trends are not dependent on 1 match. Brazil had everything going their way this final. He draws far too big conclusions from a single match.
    Puro
    Puro


    Number of posts : 10679
    Registration date : 2006-09-12

    Tim Vickery on Copa América Empty Re: Tim Vickery on Copa América

    Post by Puro Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:38 pm

    Some of you guys give Vickery way too much credit. I admit he's much better than most sportswriters, but he's the ultimate Monday morning quarterback. cheers

    He was one of them experts alluding that Argentina were gonna crush Brasil. Oh how wrong this guys were. Biggrin <Ale>
    SuperMario
    SuperMario


    Number of posts : 16866
    Age : 57
    Supports : Feyenoord & Arsenal
    Favourite Player : Diego Biseswar
    Registration date : 2006-11-10

    Tim Vickery on Copa América Empty Re: Tim Vickery on Copa América

    Post by SuperMario Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:41 pm

    @Mongrel Hawk

    this explains why it's opportunistic journalism.

    Puro wrote:

    He was one of them experts alluding that Argentina were gonna crush Brasil. Oh how wrong this guys were. Biggrin <Ale>

    By the way by Brazil had everything going for them. I mean you were 1=-0 up after 5 minutes an Ayala howler made it 2-0. I'm neither saying the Argies were better, nor that you didn't deserve the win.

    I'm debating Vickery using that single match to completely swing his opinion and starts speaking of some new dawn...


    Last edited by on Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    Oleguerisntthatbad


    Number of posts : 7180
    Age : 46
    Registration date : 2006-08-10

    Tim Vickery on Copa América Empty Re: Tim Vickery on Copa América

    Post by Oleguerisntthatbad Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:41 pm

    I would love to see Barcelona sign him in a few years time, but it is too risky to bring such a young player to a top club. Lack of playing time could really hamper his development.

    @todo I can't say I was pleased about the result but congratulations. The Argentineans completely lost the plot after the early goal. No support whatsoever for Messi and Tevez, who had to chase long balls, and Verón failed completely to take the pressure of Román. Ayala had a brain hemorage and Cambiasso went missing. All in all a bad day. Shame since I was really looking forward to some intricate attacking football.
    fcb
    fcb


    Number of posts : 40471
    Age : 113
    Supports : FC Barcelona
    Registration date : 2006-08-11

    Tim Vickery on Copa América Empty Re: Tim Vickery on Copa América

    Post by fcb Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:24 am

    Oleguerisntthatbad wrote:I would love to see Barcelona sign him in a few years time, but it is too risky to bring such a young player to a top club. Lack of playing time could really hamper his development.


    The only reason I don't want us to sign him is Bojan. He may not be as highly rated as Pato, but he costs us 0, whereas Pato will be 25 million, after a lengthy battle with other clubs with much bigger budgets than us - Inter, Milan, Chelsea, and of course Madrid will come in for whichever player we are interested in.
    avatar
    Guest
    Guest


    Tim Vickery on Copa América Empty Re: Tim Vickery on Copa América

    Post by Guest Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:33 am

    Bojan>Pato
    mongrel hawk
    mongrel hawk


    Number of posts : 4757
    Age : 44
    Supports : Corinthians
    Registration date : 2006-08-08

    Tim Vickery on Copa América Empty Re: Tim Vickery on Copa América

    Post by mongrel hawk Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:53 am

    you buy pato for 25 million today, and you sell him for much more in 3 or 4 years. mark my words.

    kas wrote:
    Oleguerisntthatbad wrote:I would love to see Barcelona sign him in a few years time, but it is too risky to bring such a young player to a top club. Lack of playing time could really hamper his development.


    The only reason I don't want us to sign him is Bojan. He may not be as highly rated as Pato, but he costs us 0, whereas Pato will be 25 million, after a lengthy battle with other clubs with much bigger budgets than us - Inter, Milan, Chelsea, and of course Madrid will come in for whichever player we are interested in.
    avatar
    Formerly known as sheva7


    Number of posts : 1899
    Age : 40
    Registration date : 2006-08-07

    Tim Vickery on Copa América Empty Re: Tim Vickery on Copa América

    Post by Formerly known as sheva7 Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:55 am

    de Guzman is right. One game doesn't prove anything.

    In 2005 we saw the triumph of the romantics.

    So many beautiful goals and plays...It could have been 6 or 7.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl1SJeKr7S8


    Last edited by on Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:58 am; edited 1 time in total
    fcb
    fcb


    Number of posts : 40471
    Age : 113
    Supports : FC Barcelona
    Registration date : 2006-08-11

    Tim Vickery on Copa América Empty Re: Tim Vickery on Copa América

    Post by fcb Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:55 am

    That's true, but again Barcelona will be the club that bought a world class player early in his career, then sold him for cash in his prime. I would rather not spend the money now, and just let the others fight it out.
    avatar
    Rez


    Number of posts : 3757
    Age : 40
    Registration date : 2006-10-06

    Tim Vickery on Copa América Empty Re: Tim Vickery on Copa América

    Post by Rez Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:36 pm

    mongrel hawk wrote:If I was European, I would be praying for my team to sign him, cause he will certainly be one of the greatest players in the planet.

    Bon voyage Rossi wrote:He totally lauds Pato, is he really that special?

    Wow, well it sounds like manchester united signed the wrong Brazilan wonderkid!

    We already have most of the worlds young attacking talents in; Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez, Rossi, Anderson and Nani. So it would only be fair for us to let someone else have a wonderkid Very Happy Lets just hope he doesnt go on to outshine all of them
    Calidad
    Calidad


    Number of posts : 7996
    Age : 37
    Supports : Hibernian FC
    Registration date : 2006-08-25

    Tim Vickery on Copa América Empty Re: Tim Vickery on Copa América

    Post by Calidad Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:39 pm

    I thought Pato was very disappointing in the U20 World Cup.

    Barcelona don't really have room for Pato with Messi, Dos Santos & Bojan.

    Apparently Milan are favourites to sign him anyway. His idols are Ronaldo & Kaka.

    Sponsored content


    Tim Vickery on Copa América Empty Re: Tim Vickery on Copa América

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun Apr 28, 2024 9:46 am