Can anybody stop Arsenal from winning the EPL?

It's odds on now me thinks

460

Terrible situation for Arsenal - if they don't win they aren't in contention, if they do win they're under pressure to win it and we all know what happens then.

Yeah I'm not buying it either...once they get up there a collapse is inevitable.

by -4 points

I voted ten or more, of course.

Seriously though, I think the governing factor is and remains Robin – with him we'd have a chance, without him we won't win it. But it would be nice to have a damn good try. Yesterday's half-time leathering and second-half recovery was positive, because as Arsène said we looked in danger of never stepping up in the big games and always folding – mentally, physically, whatever. Maybe it doesn't have to be that way.

They can be 12 points clear at the end of February and still won't win it. Arsenal are the masters of collapsing under pressure, and adding a hyperventilating meerkat while selling a player better than him will not change that fact.

Axeslammer wrote:by -4 points

think we'll be more points behind at the end of the season. On yesterday, 1 pinguin doesn't make it winter.

Allez les rouges wrote:I voted ten or more, of course.

Seriously though, I think the governing factor is and remains Robin – with him we'd have a chance, without him we won't win it. But it would be nice to have a damn good try. Yesterday's half-time leathering and second-half recovery was positive, because as Arsène said we looked in danger of never stepping up in the big games and always folding – mentally, physically, whatever. Maybe it doesn't have to be that way.

You still never know though if we make the right signings in January.

No big 4 team is all that.

I still get the feeling that Arsenal's recent improvements have been more relative to the other top 4 sides showing weakness rather than Arsenal showing particular strength. You can tell by how tentative the optimism is in football blogs on Arsenal, I think their fans are expecting to be brought crashing down to Earth against Burnley! I thought Liverpool played terribly in the second half rather than Arsenal really improving all that much, but I'd still expect Arsenal to finish higher by end of the season.

I don't think many people seriously expect us to win it and yes Burnley are v strong at home so sneaking a win there would be a start. But Ade is not a better player than Arshavin for fuck's sake and borrowing Pierre's agendas is pretty poor...

Allez les rouges wrote:But Ade is not a better player than Arshavin for fuck's sake and borrowing Pierre's agendas is pretty poor...

I always thought Arshavin was overrated. Saying that, I think Adebayor is overrated but he's at least had an excellent, world class season. Arshavin at best has a world class five minutes.

Obviously I rate both very highly. It depends what (stage) you think of as world-class I guess – up to the quarter-final of the CL for Adebayor plus a few big PL games, winning the UEFA for Zenit with Arshavin, doing what he did at the Euro esp. to Holland, ditto as for Ade with the PL. The problem with Ade is that in the mood he can be a top-class front-runner in the Drogba mould (his performance against us in the league this season), but he is far from always in the mood, so ends up being at least as inconsistent as you allege Arshavin is.

It's true that Arshavin's stamina (on occasion his work ethic too) is not, as he's openly admitted (as he tends to openly admit most things) his strongest point, but there's no need to exaggerate that into an all-subsuming agenda. He is often the kind of player who performs in bursts (not always – against Stoke he was everywhere, then at Liverpool he was anonymous until his goal), but that's the way he is; against AZ in the CL, in the stadium we thought he was being a lazy bastard having another day off until we realized he'd supplied a hat-trick of assists. He's a potentially devastating asset to have on your team, at least as much as Adebayor is.

People can't have a go at him for not showing against the big teams or in big games, so they pick the stamina/laziness agenda instead. Well, as you will, but there's a broader truth here.

Allez les rouges wrote:Obviously I rate both very highly. It depends what (stage) you think of as world-class I guess – up to the quarter-final of the CL for Adebayor plus a few big PL games, winning the UEFA for Zenit with Arshavin, doing what he did at the Euro esp. to Holland, ditto as for Ade with the PL. The problem with Ade is that in the mood he can be a top-class front-runner in the Drogba mould (his performance against us in the league this season), but he is far from always in the mood, so ends up being at least as inconsistent as you allege Arshavin is.

Adebayor has some justification in that the Arsenal fans turned on him for no decent reason. Nonetheless, he is more consistent than Arshavin (who is yet to have a good full 90 minutes this season).

It's true that Arshavin's stamina (on occasion his work ethic too) is not, as he's openly admitted (as he tends to openly admit most things) his strongest point, but there's no need to exaggerate that into an all-subsuming agenda. He is often the kind of player who performs in bursts (not always – against Stoke he was everywhere, then at Liverpool he was anonymous until his goal), but that's the way he is; against AZ in the CL, in the stadium we thought he was being a lazy bastard having another day off until we realized he'd supplied a hat-trick of assists. He's a potentially devastating asset to have on your team, at least as much as Adebayor is.

Against AZ and Stoke.

This is Eduardo all over again. Arshavin was absolutely shit against Chelsea, spent the whole match fouling people and giving the ball away. Yet not a word of criticism was directed at him, despite the big money fee, despite the hype of Arsenal fans saying he was favourite for this season's POTY last April, despite the constant wanking over him by TV pundits trying to look informed about foreign players.

People can't have a go at him for not showing against the big teams or in big games, so they pick the stamina/laziness agenda instead. Well, as you will, but there's a broader truth here.

Yes, which is that Arshavin isn't actually that good a player.

have another guess

You have another guess, 'tard.

What, despite the evidence of my own eyes that he is a simply sensational talent who is capable of scoring goals of the quality of the one on Sunday, a couple of the ones at Anfield in April, his first goal for Arsenal against Blackburn etc etc that very few people are capable of and regularly producing that kind of magic in the oh-so-relevant "big games", I should accept that he "isn't a very good player"?

I'll give him criticism when he doesn't show up or disappears, and have done. That doesn't mean anyone is going to look anything other than a fool for denying his talent.

Jesus Christ, making ex cathedra assertions repeatedly doesn't make them any truer even if it gets you an audience. Any more than it's true that the form Eduardo showed before his injury was non-existent or that Adebayor was turned on "for no reason" by Arsenal fans, rather than gradually losing his immense popularity as he openly flirted with other clubs in order to double his salary and ceased to put in any effort on the pitch.

Ultimately, I wonder if Arshavin is going to have a detrimental affect on the team in the long run.

He is clearly a talented, if lazy, player.

The problem seems to be he inability to keep his mouth shut.

Unless he is continually being "misquoted", I can't imagine that he is the most harmonising of characters in the dressing room.

Someone asked me the other day if I would swap Arshavin for Modric.

The answer to me is a clear "no" - because Modric is a model professional, and has not had anything negative to say publically since he's been at Spurs and in England.

If Arsenal don't win any silverware this season, I wonder how long before Arshavin demands a move or Wenger finally has enough of his outbursts and sends him on his way.

certainly NOT an Henry, Wright, Keown, Viera -type player who Arsenal can rely on to build a team around.

Ultimately, that is the biggest problem Wenger faces with a player like Andre. With his young team he needs continuity. Unless the Russian undergoes a massive change of character, Arsenal fans have another Adebayor on their hands

Xmas Package wrote:

Allez les rouges wrote:But Ade is not a better player than Arshavin for fuck's sake and borrowing Pierre's agendas is pretty poor...

I always thought Arshavin was overrated. Saying that, I think Adebayor is overrated but he's at least had an excellent, world class season. Arshavin at best has a world class five minutes.

You could say the same about your beloved Matt Le Tissier though.

World class players have the ability to play craply for 89 minutes and then produce a moment of genius that wins the game.

Arshavin was piss poor on Sunday aside from that goal, but who cares? He scored a fantastic goal that won the game. I've seen him have plenty of decent games to boot.

Anyway, that's not 6 goals against 'big four opposition' since he's joined us. Not bad.

Allez les rouges wrote:What, despite the evidence of my own eyes that he is a simply sensational talent who is capable of scoring goals of the quality of the one on Sunday, a couple of the ones at Anfield in April, his first goal for Arsenal against Blackburn etc etc that very few people are capable of and regularly producing that kind of magic in the oh-so-relevant "big games", I should accept that he "isn't a very good player"?

I said he isn't that good a player. He is a very good player, but to me he isn't even the outstanding player in Arsenal's first XI. And Adebayor is better, though I don't think Adebayor is as good as Arsenal fans made out until it no longer suited them to make out he was amazing. It's curious how much worse they think he is now he's gone to another club, despite the fact his form is back to what it was in his very best season for Arsenal.

I'll give him criticism when he doesn't show up or disappears, and have done. That doesn't mean anyone is going to look anything other than a fool for denying his talent.

Tony Yeboah was very talented. Ricardo Quaresma is very talented. Arshavin is very talented.

I know that within Arsenal a player is rated by what he can do at his very best, but in the real footballing world players are rated by what they actually do on a regular basis. I saw Arshavin over 90 minutes against both Man Utd and Chelsea this season and he was abysmal in both games.

Jesus Christ, making ex cathedra assertions repeatedly doesn't make them any truer even if it gets you an audience. Any more than it's true that the form Eduardo showed before his injury was non-existent or that Adebayor was turned on "for no reason" by Arsenal fans, rather than gradually losing his immense popularity as he openly flirted with other clubs in order to double his salary and ceased to put in any effort on the pitch.

As previously discussed, Eduardo had scored I think 1 in 9 games prior to his injury, and most of his goals in his two-month hot spell came against lower league/weak EPL opposition.

His form now isn't so different.

Given the hype around Adebayor and the money Arsenal were asking for him, the man was entitled to expect a big salary hike to put him on a par with the other big earners at the club. As I said at the time, you can't on the one hand call him a 'guaranteed 30 goal a season striker' and say he's worth £35 million but then say he doesn't deserve more than 40K a week when others around him are on more than double that amount. It's massively hypocritical, and Arsenal were extremely cynical in the way they managed their PR around Adebayor after that. Given how quiet the Emirates crowd is when it comes to almost everything, for them to put so much energy into hounding Adebayor was very funny, but utterly misguided.

Characterise these statements however you like, but the fact is I'm right about Arsenal far more often than any Arsenal fan on here. When Arshavin began well for Arsenal I said I was going to wait until he'd had a year in the league before deciding how good I thought he was, while you and your buddies were jumping around acting like you'd signed Kaka. If you really want to talk about people look foolish then let's 'ave it.

Tweesus wrote:

Xmas Package wrote:

Allez les rouges wrote:But Ade is not a better player than Arshavin for fuck's sake and borrowing Pierre's agendas is pretty poor...

I always thought Arshavin was overrated. Saying that, I think Adebayor is overrated but he's at least had an excellent, world class season. Arshavin at best has a world class five minutes.

You could say the same about your beloved Matt Le Tissier though.

Le Tissier never, ever, ever had the hype that Arshavin has received.

World class players have the ability to play craply for 89 minutes and then produce a moment of genius that wins the game.

Or a succession of lucky swings turned into 'world class ability' by over eager pundits and fans.

Arshavin was piss poor on Sunday aside from that goal, but who cares?

I do.

He scored a fantastic goal that won the game. I've seen him have plenty of decent games to boot.

Decent games, yes. Truly exceptional ones? No.

Anyway, that's not 6 goals against 'big four opposition' since he's joined us. Not bad.

As you yourself just acknowledged, scoring a goal doesn't necessarily mean a good performance. John O'Shea has a good goal record in big games. When I see Arshavin destroy a top defence that's actually playing well, as I have seen the best players in this league do, including Adebayor, then I'll happily change my view of him. But the odd wonder goal does not make up for his being content to be a luxury player.

Saints: The thing is, a lot of your technique is putting words in other people's mouths, an Aunt Sally/straw man thing if you like. I don't disagree with a lot you say about Adebayor, certainly by his market rate he'd have been worth a lot more than £40,000 a week (I don't know where the £35m/guaranteed 30 goals thing comes from, or the idea that he's somehow "worse" now), but there are ways and means of going about these things (he could take lessons from the likes of Cesc), and it's also (far more) about the way he continued to behave and perform (or not) after getting his massive raise. I certainly wasn't one of those giving him abuse, of which there was very little before he left the club. I agreed with what you said in the past about Flamini – unlike Adebayor – deserving better from the club, but he never treated it or spoke about it as Adebayor has.

I don't think the 1 in 9 figure re Eduardo is remotely accurate, as I remember he'd scored ten-odd in the couple of months leading up to his injury, in his first run in the team. Man City, Everton, lower-level/weak teams, whatever.

Anyway it's not about him and I for one am not saying Arshavin is "the" outstanding player in the team, rather one of the three brightest sparks with RvP and Cesc. So-and-so is "better", well anyone can make an assertion like that, but we'll have to disagree. The games you mentioned weren't his best, no, but he did score in both, even if the Chelsea one was wrongly disallowed, and sometimes he's like that in games, as I tried to say above – and if you do, say, come up with a hat-trick of assists who cares if you look lazy for most of the match to the casual observer? (Ah, I see Tweedle's just made the same point.) The same was the case for his salvo at Anfield last season.

Bernd may, unfortunately, have a point, but I think it would be fairer and wiser to see how Arshavin continues to do with Robin out (as a centre-forward or otherwise) before jumping into what it seems to me are agenda-governed assertions of "better", "overrated" and the like. At least give him the season (as you've suggested you're prepared to), seeing that apparently the big test is how you do at a "top four"-level club.

I'd never dare of putting Arshavin in the same class as Ronaldo, Messi and Kaka, but as attacking midfielders/support forwards go, he's definately up there in the second group.

Regarding the truly exceptional games issue, weren't most of the press waxing lyrical about him for Russia in every game he played at the euro champs? And what about the Europa league run for CSKA? He was pretty exceptional in a number of those games as well?

This season he may not have had an exceptional game for us, but he's had a fair number of 'good' games and he's scored a number of important goals for us.

Allez les rouges wrote:Bernd may, unfortunately, have a point

He does.

He's hardly the most loyal of players, lets be honest.

That said, he's 28 now and realistically he's only probably got 3 years left at his best -so we're arguably getting him in his prime years.

If we'd signed him at 22, we'd probably have missed out on those.

I think his attitude may partially be the reason that we got a reduced fee for him and that everyone else had calmed their interest a bit. Having said that though, some of the stuff he says is great entertainment for the neutrals. You need characters like that in the league to stirr up a bit of controversy.

Tweesus wrote:I'd never dare of putting Arshavin in the same class as Ronaldo, Messi and Kaka, but as attacking midfielders/support forwards go, he's definately up there in the second group.

Regarding the truly exceptional games issue, weren't most of the press waxing lyrical about him for Russia in every game he played at the euro champs? And what about the Europa league run for CSKA? He was pretty exceptional in a number of those games as well?

This season he may not have had an exceptional game for us, but he's had a fair number of 'good' games and he's scored a number of important goals for us.

Not CSKA.

A few more points...

Arshavin is maybe a poor man's Messi - they're quite similar in style whereas RVP is practically unique.

Its far more difficult to argue that RVP isn't 'world class' quality because some of the things he can do are magical - they're things that the likes of ronaldo, messi and maybe even Kaka cannot do.

The things preventing RVP from being regarded in the same bracket as those three are:
1. Injuries disrupting his form
2. Probably related to (1) consistency
3. Doing it in the big games

He could possibly do with a tincy bit more pace as well but physcial attributes shouldn't come into it

Allez les rouges wrote:Saints: The thing is, a lot of your technique is putting words in other people's mouths, an Aunt Sally/straw man thing if you like. I don't disagree with a lot you say about Adebayor, certainly by his market rate he'd have been worth a lot more than £40,000 a week (I don't know where the £35m/guaranteed 30 goals thing comes from, or the idea that he's somehow "worse" now), but there are ways and means of going about these things (he could take lessons from the likes of Cesc), and it's also (far more) about the way he continued to behave and perform (or not) after getting his massive raise. I certainly wasn't one of those giving him abuse, of which there was very little before he left the club. I agreed with what you said in the past about Flamini – unlike Adebayor – deserving better from the club, but he never treated it or spoke about it as Adebayor has.

All of these statements I found in abundance in the Arsenal thread, many of which I argued with at the time. It isn't a strawman argument at all.

I don't think the 1 in 9 figure re Eduardo is remotely accurate, as I remember he'd scored ten-odd in the couple of months leading up to his injury, in his first run in the team. Man City, Everton, lower-level/weak teams, whatever.

http://www.soccerbase.com/players_details.sd?playerid=44130

My mistake, it was 1 in 11.



He was injured in a game against Birmingham on February 23rd. Sot he previous two months would take us back to December 23rd. In that period he scored 5 goals, not 10.

This demonstrates how even when the information is available to them with the minimum of effort, Arsenal fans would rather rely on their own faulty memory of their own hyping of their players, and then attack people for disagreeing on the basis of actual evidence.

Anyway it's not about him and I for one am not saying Arshavin is "the" outstanding player in the team, rather one of the three brightest sparks with RvP and Cesc. So-and-so is "better", well anyone can make an assertion like that, but we'll have to disagree. The games you mentioned weren't his best, no, but he did score in both, even if the Chelsea one was wrongly disallowed, and sometimes he's like that in games, as I tried to say above – and if you do, say, come up with a hat-trick of assists who cares if you look lazy for most of the match to the casual observer? (Ah, I see Tweedle's just made the same point.) The same was the case for his salvo at Anfield last season.

Bernd may, unfortunately, have a point, but I think it would be fairer and wiser to see how Arshavin continues to do with Robin out (as a centre-forward or otherwise) before jumping into what it seems to me are agenda-governed assertions of "better", "overrated" and the like. At least give him the season (as you've suggested you're prepared to), seeing that apparently the big test is how you do at a "top four"-level club.

I waited a lot longer to make my 'agenda-governed assertions' than the Arsenal fans did.

I will give him the season, and I'm willing to have my mind changed. But so far I'm more underwhelmed with him than I am with Nani, who gets far more shit despite being a lot younger (and deserves quite a lot of the shit he's getting).

On the other hand, I am highly impressed with how Tubblestone is getting along. Another cheap young English talent Wenger could have signed who is turning out better than the equivalent Arsene bought at the time. But let's not get into that.

Edin Dzeko wrote:

Tweesus wrote:I'd never dare of putting Arshavin in the same class as Ronaldo, Messi and Kaka, but as attacking midfielders/support forwards go, he's definately up there in the second group.

Regarding the truly exceptional games issue, weren't most of the press waxing lyrical about him for Russia in every game he played at the euro champs? And what about the Europa league run for CSKA? He was pretty exceptional in a number of those games as well?

This season he may not have had an exceptional game for us, but he's had a fair number of 'good' games and he's scored a number of important goals for us.

Not CSKA.

I have a blind spot for CSKA / Zenit.

You must feel so proud of yourself for pulling me up on that though. Well done Your gold star is in the post.

Numpty.

Women should not be allowed to smoke or drive.

Yeah, everyone speaks French in the dressing room, I should probably learn it.

England is shit.

Yeah sometimes I can be arsed but if the team is gonna just pass the ball around in their own half I'll have a wee rest and do something special when it comes to me. I'm a lazy fuck.

You love it

Tweesus wrote:

Edin Dzeko wrote:

Tweesus wrote:I'd never dare of putting Arshavin in the same class as Ronaldo, Messi and Kaka, but as attacking midfielders/support forwards go, he's definately up there in the second group.

Regarding the truly exceptional games issue, weren't most of the press waxing lyrical about him for Russia in every game he played at the euro champs? And what about the Europa league run for CSKA? He was pretty exceptional in a number of those games as well?

This season he may not have had an exceptional game for us, but he's had a fair number of 'good' games and he's scored a number of important goals for us.

Not CSKA.

I have a blind spot for CSKA / Zenit.

You must feel so proud of yourself for pulling me up on that though. Well done Your gold star is in the post.

Numpty.

I do.