Sheva v Henry who was the bigger flop

S4P wrote:

robert wrote:Peak imo is 28 - 32.

I don't know how you can say Sheva only just, almost all the factors are for Sheva bar that they were both played out of position.

Henry - 16 games/3 goals
Sheva - 51 games/14 goals

I think it's quite clear that Sheva has been the bigger flop, but the gap isn't as big as some may think.

hope u aren't serious s4p? including sheva's goals against sorry division 2 teams to make his stats look better....

the correct stats are:

Henry - 16(4 as a sub) games : 3 goals.

sheva - 33( 8 as sub) games : 4 goals.

the diffrence isn't even small.

sheva is simply a far bigger flop than henry was.

I don't think you can make this kind of comparison, because it was Henry's first experience playing aboard, and he was badly used as you can see what happened after when he played for Wenger who rectified is position and role his ration goal/game improved greatly. Regards to Sheva, it was his second experience playing abroad so you would have expected better things from him. But he is simply not suited to play in the E.P.L so you can't just say he's a poor player. He should have gone in Spain or return to Italy, where he would have had more chances to show his qualities.

Another drawback of making such comparison is that Henry was starting his career, whereas Sheva is now almost at the end of it.

Comparing Henry flopping at Barca would make a more interesting debate. BUt it's still too early yet to make this statement.

Sheva is probably a bigger flop, but I just don't understand what this poll is all about? How does this prove anything??

If you want to compare players, look at what they were at their best days... and look at how long those best days lasted. Looking at their worst doesn't tell you much.

Sheva came to England 3/4 seasons too late.

Henry went to Italy 3/4 seasons too early.

We'll never know

I think Manchester United were interested in Shevchenko back in 1999 ..

Let's leave the Otto point of view for a while and take another point of view (the glass is half full instead of half empty !) :

Who was a bigger success, Shevchenko in Italy or Henry in England ?

(Shevchenko gets my vote btw)

Axeslammer wrote:Let's leave the Otto point of view for a while and take another point of view (the glass is half full instead of half empty !) :

Who was a bigger success, Shevchenko in Italy or Henry in England ?

(Shevchenko gets my vote btw)

SHEVA!!!!

Raifael wrote:I think Manchester United were interested in Shevchenko back in 1999 ..

And Salas, Kluivert etc....

TeamSpirit wrote:

Axeslammer wrote:Let's leave the Otto point of view for a while and take another point of view (the glass is half full instead of half empty !) :

Who was a bigger success, Shevchenko in Italy or Henry in England ?

(Shevchenko gets my vote btw)

SHEVA!!!!

ok lets get this straight here,


sheva:

- only finished top scorer ONCE in his whole career in Italy. And he only scored 20+ league goals ONCE in his last FIVE seasons.

- Won the league as many times as Alan shearer( who in many people eyes didn't win enough trophies to match his talent) did in England ie Only ONCE despite playing in an arguably more talented side than the likes of Juve and Roma.

- I don't ever remember him being voted the best player in Italy, i stand to be corrected though. Totti for example outperformed him during his time in there.

Henry:

- Finished EPL top scorer FOUR times and only a dodgy Ruud van Nistelrooy penalty prevented him from finishing top scorer for FIVE CONSECUTIVE seasons. Also became the 1st player to score 20+ league goals for 5 consecutive seasons in the English league.

- Won two epl titles and 3 FA cups. Also worth saying he could have won atleast another epl title had it not being for a certain Russian billionaire.

- The only player in English football history to have ever won the Football writers' association footballer of the year thrice. Mind u that's more than the likes of George best, Bobby charlton, Daglish etc managed.

So how could anyone say sheva was more of a succes in Italy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andriy_Shevchenko#Honours

Agooner wrote:

TeamSpirit wrote:

Axeslammer wrote:Let's leave the Otto point of view for a while and take another point of view (the glass is half full instead of half empty !) :

Who was a bigger success, Shevchenko in Italy or Henry in England ?

(Shevchenko gets my vote btw)

SHEVA!!!!

ok lets get this straight here,


sheva:

- only finished top scorer ONCE in his whole career in Italy. And he only scored 20+ league goals ONCE in his last FIVE seasons.

- Won the league as many times as Alan shearer( who in many people eyes didn't win enough trophies to match his talent) did in England ie Only ONCE despite playing in an arguably more talented side than the likes of Juve and Roma.

- I don't ever remember him being voted the best player in Italy, i stand to be corrected though. Totti for example outperformed him during his time in there.

Henry:

- Finished EPL top scorer FOUR times and only a dodgy Ruud van Nistelrooy penalty prevented him from finishing top scorer for FIVE CONSECUTIVE seasons. Also became the 1st player to score 20+ league goals for 5 consecutive seasons in the English league.

- Won two epl titles and 3 FA cups. Also worth saying he could have won atleast another epl title had it not being for a certain Russian billionaire.

- The only player in English football history to have ever won the Football writers' association footballer of the year thrice. Mind u that's more than the likes of George best, Bobby charlton, Daglish etc managed.

So how could anyone say sheva was more of a succes in Italy?

Its the London biased media which also explains why Ginola won it for winning the league cup and Becks won nothing for winning the treble.

RE Henry v Sheva; Henry was more succesful domestically, but Sheva was and still is more succesful in the CL.

So you agree European success> domestic success then?

Hurrah! Liverpool > Man U.

You obviously know about Henry, but don't know $h!t about Sheva.

Agooner wrote:
ok lets get this straight here,

sheva:
- only finished top scorer ONCE in his whole career in Italy. And he only scored 20+ league goals ONCE in his last FIVE seasons.

Twice Capocannoniere, if I remember correctly, BOTH times with 20+ goals. 127 goals in 208 games is not a bad haul in the days of the defensive Serie A.

Agooner wrote:
- Won the league as many times as Alan shearer( who in many people eyes didn't win enough trophies to match his talent) did in England ie Only ONCE despite playing in an arguably more talented side than the likes of Juve and Roma.

Serie A those days was more competitive than EPL. And Sheva also won the CL with his team, also being the top scorer all time in europe. Did Alan Shearer or Henry do that?? As for Milan being more talented than Juve during his time, I am sure a lot of bianconeri will disagree....

Agooner wrote:
- I don't ever remember him being voted the best player in Italy, i stand to be corrected though. Totti for example outperformed him during his time in there.

He was voted as the best foriegn footballer in 2000, beating the likes of Zidane, Ronaldo, Batistuta, Nedved, etc. EPL did not have that kinda quality of players at that time. Also won the Ballon D'Or.

bluenine wrote:You obviously know about Henry, but don't know $h!t about Sheva.

Agooner wrote:
ok lets get this straight here,

sheva:
- only finished top scorer ONCE in his whole career in Italy. And he only scored 20+ league goals ONCE in his last FIVE seasons.

Twice Capocannoniere, if I remember correctly, BOTH times with 20+ goals. 127 goals in 208 games is not a bad haul in the days of the defensive Serie A.

Agooner wrote:
- Won the league as many times as Alan shearer( who in many people eyes didn't win enough trophies to match his talent) did in England ie Only ONCE despite playing in an arguably more talented side than the likes of Juve and Roma.

Serie A those days was more competitive than EPL. And Sheva also won the CL with his team, also being the top scorer all time in europe. Did Alan Shearer or Henry do that?? As for Milan being more talented than Juve during his time, I am sure a lot of bianconeri will disagree....

Agooner wrote:
- I don't ever remember him being voted the best player in Italy, i stand to be corrected though. Totti for example outperformed him during his time in there.

He was voted as the best foriegn footballer in 2000, beating the likes of Zidane, Ronaldo, Batistuta, Nedved, etc. EPL did not have that kinda quality of players at that time. Also won the Ballon D'Or.

id disagree. the juve team of 2/3 years ago was awesome:

-------buffon-------
zambo--thuram--canna---zebina/birin/pessoto
----viera-----emerson-------
cambo--------------nedved
----demps-----trez/zlatan.

lb apart that is pure class.

I don't see how Henry, as a relatively young and unproven player, can be seen as a flop in Serie A. He had no major rep to live up to.

He could yet be a flop in Spain as he has built up a reputation in England.

He was less of a flop in Italy than Bergkamp.

Bigger 'flops' than Henry would include Morientes at Liverpool, Rush at Juve, Anelka at Real.... and Sheva at Chelsea.

bluenine wrote:You obviously know about Henry, but don't know $h!t about Sheva

.

that's a stupid way to start a response.

bluenine wrote:

Agooner wrote:
ok lets get this straight here,

sheva:
- only finished top scorer ONCE in his whole career in Italy. And he only scored 20+ league goals ONCE in his last FIVE seasons.

Twice Capocannoniere, if I remember correctly, BOTH times with 20+ goals. 127 goals in 208 games is not a bad haul in the days of the defensive Serie A.

Fair enough. I thought Gilardino finished top scorer in the 2003/2004 season, should have checked it. But you'd understand why it's easy for me to get that one wrong given the regularity at which sheva finished top scorer.

bluenine wrote:

Agooner wrote:
- Won the league as many times as Alan shearer( who in many people eyes didn't win enough trophies to match his talent) did in England ie Only ONCE despite playing in an arguably more talented side than the likes of Juve and Roma.

Serie A those days was more competitive than EPL. And Sheva also won the CL with his team, also being the top scorer all time in europe. Did Alan Shearer or Henry do that?? As for Milan being more talented than Juve during his time, I am sure a lot of bianconeri will disagree....

Wrong! u have nothing to back that up. how many different teams won it since sheva went there? compare that to the number of team that won the epl during henry's time in the epl....you'll see that u are wrong.

Well sheva appeard in one more CL finals than henry despite playing for a club with a more european predigree. Henry captained a young team to our 1st european final ever, that's equivalent to say Totti doing the same with Roma. Milan are a european super power, they'll always continue doing well in europe, didn't they go on to win the trophy immediately after sheva left them?

think you'll also find out that henry has more than 50 european goal to his name, not too far off sheva's total. why did u bring this up in the 1st place? thought we were solely discussing what he did in Italy.

Agooner wrote: why did u bring this up in the 1st place? thought we were solely discussing what he did in Italy.

Half their CL games were played in Italy

Roger Hunt wrote:

Agooner wrote: why did u bring this up in the 1st place? thought we were solely discussing what he did in Italy.

Half their CL games were played in Italy

he mentioned sheva being top scorer in europe of all times, alot of those goals were scored in european qualifiers when he was back in ukraine. If u compare sheva's european goals for milan( ie during his time in italy) to henry's at arsenal, i am sure there isn't much between them.

This is a completely pointless argument. Sheva has only been a flop in England because he is past it. If he had moved to England a few years ago, he would have been a huge success.

Agooner wrote:

Roger Hunt wrote:

Agooner wrote: why did u bring this up in the 1st place? thought we were solely discussing what he did in Italy.

Half their CL games were played in Italy

he mentioned sheva being top scorer in europe of all times, alot of those goals were scored in european qualifiers when he was back in ukraine. If u compare sheva's european goals for milan( ie during his time in italy) to henry's at arsenal, i am sure there isn't much between them.

Good point, my bad

Murray wrote:This is a completely pointless argument. Sheva has only been a flop in England because he is past it. If he had moved to England a few years ago, he would have been a huge success.

You assume.

Sheva is the same age as Henry, and Henry is more reliant on pace. Is Henry past it?

Now if Sheva had semi-retired to the SPL he'd be top scorer.

@ Agooner

Its a stupid debate 'cos Shevchenko is finished.

HE CAN'T RUN.

What don't you understand ?

You look at the World Cup and you look at the away game at Parma just before that and you have to say it finished him.

You say that a lot of his goals for Dynamo were in qualifiers as if to say his record is less impressive because of this but this is balanced by the fact that he does so well in the KO phases.

He is almost 2 every 3 whereas Henry can't even get 1 every 2.

You will say that this is 'cos Milan is a European superpower but its buying players like Sheva that make them that Euopean superpower.

Plus Arsenal played for Henry - Shevchenko was just a player in the Milan side.

Ask yourself this:

If Henry's legs went in the way that Sheva's have gone - would he have anything to offer football ?

Sheva was Chelsea's best player in KO phases of CL - 'cos this is more about skill and nous and not so much running like the Prem.

Shevchenko should retire.

Also in fairness to Sheva, he's a couple of years older than Henry. I think it'll be interesting to see if Henry is still the same player in 2 years time.

If he was ever going to move to the EPL, it should have been when we first went for him (2004) rather than waiting till he hit 30 and picked up a couple of injuries.

Agooner wrote:

bluenine wrote:

Agooner wrote:
ok lets get this straight here,

sheva:
- only finished top scorer ONCE in his whole career in Italy. And he only scored 20+ league goals ONCE in his last FIVE seasons.

Twice Capocannoniere, if I remember correctly, BOTH times with 20+ goals. 127 goals in 208 games is not a bad haul in the days of the defensive Serie A.

Fair enough. I thought Gilardino finished top scorer in the 2003/2004 season, should have checked it. But you'd understand why it's easy for me to get that one wrong given the regularity at which sheva finished top scorer.

bluenine wrote:

Agooner wrote:
- Won the league as many times as Alan shearer( who in many people eyes didn't win enough trophies to match his talent) did in England ie Only ONCE despite playing in an arguably more talented side than the likes of Juve and Roma.

Serie A those days was more competitive than EPL. And Sheva also won the CL with his team, also being the top scorer all time in europe. Did Alan Shearer or Henry do that?? As for Milan being more talented than Juve during his time, I am sure a lot of bianconeri will disagree....

Wrong! u have nothing to back that up. how many different teams won it since sheva went there? compare that to the number of team that won the epl during henry's time in the epl....you'll see that u are wrong.

Dude, wrong again.

Shevchenko in Milan (1999-2006) - 7 seasons, FIVE different Serie A champions!
Henry at Arsenal (1999-2007) - 8 seasons, THREE different EPL winners!

Any more incorrect facts you wanna throw at me?

Not saying that Serie A was a stronger league at that time coz of this... but around 1999-2004, Serie A had much bigger names playing there than EPL. It was the chelsea revolution that started changing that equation, and the calcipoli scandal did the rest. Thats my opinion anyways. You seem quite convinced that Henry is better than Sheva, and you are entitled to that opinion. Just don't state wrong facts trying to prove it

S4P wrote:Also in fairness to Sheva, he's a couple of years older than Henry. I think it'll be interesting to see if Henry is still the same player in 2 years time.

If he was ever going to move to the EPL, it should have been when we first went for him (2004) rather than waiting till he hit 30 and picked up a couple of injuries.

couple of years...

he's just 10.5 months older ffs

bluenine wrote:

Agooner wrote:

bluenine wrote:

Agooner wrote:
ok lets get this straight here,

sheva:
- only finished top scorer ONCE in his whole career in Italy. And he only scored 20+ league goals ONCE in his last FIVE seasons.

Twice Capocannoniere, if I remember correctly, BOTH times with 20+ goals. 127 goals in 208 games is not a bad haul in the days of the defensive Serie A.

Fair enough. I thought Gilardino finished top scorer in the 2003/2004 season, should have checked it. But you'd understand why it's easy for me to get that one wrong given the regularity at which sheva finished top scorer.

bluenine wrote:

Agooner wrote:
- Won the league as many times as Alan shearer( who in many people eyes didn't win enough trophies to match his talent) did in England ie Only ONCE despite playing in an arguably more talented side than the likes of Juve and Roma.

Serie A those days was more competitive than EPL. And Sheva also won the CL with his team, also being the top scorer all time in europe. Did Alan Shearer or Henry do that?? As for Milan being more talented than Juve during his time, I am sure a lot of bianconeri will disagree....

Wrong! u have nothing to back that up. how many different teams won it since sheva went there? compare that to the number of team that won the epl during henry's time in the epl....you'll see that u are wrong.

Dude, wrong again.

Shevchenko in Milan (1999-2006) - 7 seasons, FIVE different Serie A champions!
Henry at Arsenal (1999-2007) - 8 seasons, THREE different EPL winners!

Any more incorrect facts you wanna throw at me?

Not saying that Serie A was a stronger league at that time coz of this... but around 1999-2004, Serie A had much bigger names playing there than EPL. It was the chelsea revolution that started changing that equation, and the calcipoli scandal did the rest. Thats my opinion anyways. You seem quite convinced that Henry is better than Sheva, and you are entitled to that opinion. Just don't state wrong facts trying to prove it

it's FOUR actually: Lazio, roma, Juve and Milan.

Before u start mentioning Inter , they didn't win it in the 1005/2006. scandal or no scandal that juve team was the best in serie A.

So as u have it:

4 teams won it during sheva's time in italy.

while

3 teams won it during henry's time in England.

The difference is neglible, so i don't see why u brought that up to justify your 'serie a was more competitive those days'comment.

I did not bring it up. YOU did. I said that it is hardly the best indicator... was just pointing out your factually incorrect statement. Whether you consider it as 4 winners or 5, its still more than EPL.

Agooner wrote:4 teams won it during sheva's time in italy.

while

3 teams won it during henry's time in England.

The difference is neglible, so i don't see why u brought that up to justify your 'serie a was more competitive those days'comment.

I don't think their is any doubting who is the bigger flop.

Pierre Littbarski wrote:@ Agooner

Its a stupid debate 'cos Shevchenko is finished.

HE CAN'T RUN.

you're Alan hansen?

Pierre Littbarski wrote:Plus Arsenal played for Henry - Shevchenko was just a player in the Milan side.

myths. As i have told u before we played to his strengths, that was infact years ago when we were a counter attacking team. when a team is built around a single player, it doesn't function well in his absence but that wasn't the case with Henry, we always missed vieira more when he wasn't playing. stats even back that up.

As u know we are now a possession based team, that isnt henry best system, he thrives best in a counter attcking team with a lot of space infront of him to run into.

Pierre Littbarski wrote:Ask yourself this:

If Henry's legs went in the way that Sheva's have gone - would he have anything to offer football ?

His ability to score when he's any where near the 18. And most of all his passing and vision( which i told u before is excellent) as u can see here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hifv0exz3lM

Pierre Littbarski wrote:Sheva was Chelsea's best player in KO phases of CL - 'cos this is more about skill and nous and not so much running like the Prem.

stop making things up Pierre.

Mikel for example was better: changed the game when he came on away to porto, motm performances away to valencia, chelsea's best player overall against liverpool in the semis.

Pierre Littbarski wrote:Shevchenko should retire.

[/quote]

maybe i do come accross as anti sheva whilst defending Henry, but i am not. I really do feel sorry for him at the moment. I said the other day in the match thread that he should return to Italy, don't think the English game suits him. I believe he still has a lot of class in him but chelsea isn't the right club for him to show it at the moment.

As a huge Sheva fan, I thought he might turn it around this season, but I do believe that older players used to a certain style cannot adapt as well as younger players when they move abroad. Hence why Morientes did badly at liverpool while still being excellent in spain when he went back. If sheva goes back to italy, I think he would do ok. It's is not so much the physicality as italian football is plenty physical, the defenders are constantly pulling shirts, kicking you etc when the ref's not looking. The difference is that he doesn't have to do anything for 89 minutes, then pop up and score a goal, the ball is mainly held up in the midfield area. In english football they like to try and get the ball in the forward area really quickly so he has to work a lot harder.

Anyway Sheva has been a bigger flop. In terms of their overall play, henry was always a better all-round player (that doesn't mean sheva doesn't have skills because he does), but sheva was a much more clinical striker, and that is what's required in Italian football when he might only get 1 chance in the whole game. If you look at things like assists sheva isn't anywhere near henry.

It's difficult to say who was the best at their best. Sheva did play in a tougher league with better players, and he stood out most as the best striker, whereas henry was the outstanding player (not only striker) of the EPL for years. Let's just say we never have to decide as the real Ronaldo was better than both of them (best player and best striker) ;-).