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    England squad for Austria and Croatia

    Tweesus
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    Post by Tweesus Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:56 am

    The-Frankinsense-Tavern wrote:don't get me wrong i'm not saying Mcclaren should get stick but the players are culpable too. although i totally agree that if he plays flump and garrard in a muct win game and loses fook he should be a goner. its back to the sven prob name over form/performance

    Obviously I don't know what he's been telling them to do in training, but I've seen coaches turn teams with much less gifted players into teams that can pas, can play at a high tempo and can dominate possession.

    All you need to do is tell players to work the ball more, not make hollywood passes and try and play tighter in the centre and in levels so that the ball can be passed though - the problem with the England squad is that the midfield isn't layered, so there aren't any passing triangles to play through. Also, it doesn't take a member of MENZA to realise that if you play Beckham, Gerrard, Cole and Lampard, you have no water carrier/ball retainer, and thus possession is going to get lost quickly
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    Post by Football Genius Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:59 am

    To many chiefs and not enough Indians, that is the problem.

    We need some workhorses to balance the team.
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    Post by The-Frank-Tavern Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:01 pm

    that was Barry before this ridiculous decision to try flumpsand gerrard again
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    Post by Allez les rouges Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:38 pm

    Quite. I'd be damn pissed off if I was an England fan. It's fine to play Lampard, he's a good player (snigger) and probably deserves it on recent form, but it should go without saying that he comes in for Gerrard. To play that ludicrous twosome in the centre again in a friendly is only justifiable in terms of McClaren giving the world a parting shot by just taking the piss.

    And I like the way we have to read the reports about how "Lampard deserves his place" and gradually work out the pathetic truth that it's Barry who he's coming in for, not Gerrard as would make sense – presumably the media outlets are too embarrassed to make "Lampard and Gerrard picked in the middle again" their headline in a neutral report...
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    Post by Roger Hunt Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:48 pm

    Havent seen it with my own eyes but reports I've read of Chelsea suggest that Lampard's passing game has been much improved this season.

    On that basis, and given Gerrard's relatively poor form for England in the last 2 or 3 games I would go with Lampard and Barry.
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    Post by Deluded F*ck™ Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:55 pm

    Allez les rouges wrote:Quite. I'd be damn pissed off if I was an England fan. It's fine to play Lampard, he's a good player (snigger) and probably deserves it on recent form, but it should go without saying that he comes in for Gerrard. To play that gruesome twosome in the centre again in a friendly is only justifiable in terms of McClaren giving the world a parting shot by just taking the piss.

    And I like the way we have to read the reports about how "Lampard deserves his place" and gradually work out the pathetic truth that it's Barry who he's coming in for, not Gerrard as would make sense – presumably the media outlets are too embarrassed to make "Lampard and Gerrard picked in the middle again" their headline in a neutral report...
    okAle
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    Post by Isco Benny Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:59 pm

    Allez les rouges wrote:Quite. I'd be damn pissed off if I was an England fan. It's fine to play Lampard, he's a good player (snigger) and probably deserves it on recent form, but it should go without saying that he comes in for Gerrard. To play that ludicrous twosome in the centre again in a friendly is only justifiable in terms of McClaren giving the world a parting shot by just taking the piss.

    And I like the way we have to read the reports about how "Lampard deserves his place" and gradually work out the pathetic truth that it's Barry who he's coming in for, not Gerrard as would make sense – presumably the media outlets are too embarrassed to make "Lampard and Gerrard picked in the middle again" their headline in a neutral report...

    Spot on. Thing is, if Barry were at a top 4 club, this wouldnt be an issue. Its because its "only Villa" he isnt seen as good enough, despite the fact that if newspaper reports are to believed (snigger), he is being tracked by Chelsea as a potential January target Doh
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    Post by Allez les rouges Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:05 pm

    El Gaffer™️ wrote:
    Allez les rouges wrote:Quite. I'd be damn pissed off if I was an England fan. It's fine to play Lampard, he's a good player (snigger) and probably deserves it on recent form, but it should go without saying that he comes in for Gerrard. To play that gruesome twosome in the centre again in a friendly is only justifiable in terms of McClaren giving the world a parting shot by just taking the piss.

    And I like the way we have to read the reports about how "Lampard deserves his place" and gradually work out the pathetic truth that it's Barry who he's coming in for, not Gerrard as would make sense – presumably the media outlets are too embarrassed to make "Lampard and Gerrard picked in the middle again" their headline in a neutral report...
    okAle

    Cheers TS. Wink It's a bit tabloidy but that's a much better solution to the problem of finding the right adjective that I struggled with...
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    Post by dont panic! Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:11 pm

    play the U21s
    Deluded F*ck™
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    Post by Deluded F*ck™ Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:14 pm

    Allez les rouges wrote:
    El Gaffer™️ wrote:
    Allez les rouges wrote:Quite. I'd be damn pissed off if I was an England fan. It's fine to play Lampard, he's a good player (snigger) and probably deserves it on recent form, but it should go without saying that he comes in for Gerrard. To play that gruesome twosome in the centre again in a friendly is only justifiable in terms of McClaren giving the world a parting shot by just taking the piss.

    And I like the way we have to read the reports about how "Lampard deserves his place" and gradually work out the pathetic truth that it's Barry who he's coming in for, not Gerrard as would make sense – presumably the media outlets are too embarrassed to make "Lampard and Gerrard picked in the middle again" their headline in a neutral report...
    okAle

    Cheers TS. Wink It's a bit tabloidy but that's a much better solution to the problem of finding the right adjective that I struggled with...

    I'm with Parky on this - you just know the scoreline will flatter to deceive.
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    Post by COTR Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:21 pm

    The Real Martin Troll wrote:
    Allez les rouges wrote:Quite. I'd be damn pissed off if I was an England fan. It's fine to play Lampard, he's a good player (snigger) and probably deserves it on recent form, but it should go without saying that he comes in for Gerrard. To play that ludicrous twosome in the centre again in a friendly is only justifiable in terms of McClaren giving the world a parting shot by just taking the piss.

    And I like the way we have to read the reports about how "Lampard deserves his place" and gradually work out the pathetic truth that it's Barry who he's coming in for, not Gerrard as would make sense – presumably the media outlets are too embarrassed to make "Lampard and Gerrard picked in the middle again" their headline in a neutral report...

    Spot on. Thing is, if Barry were at a top 4 club, this wouldnt be an issue. Its because its "only Villa" he isnt seen as good enough, despite the fact that if newspaper reports are to believed (snigger), he is being tracked by Chelsea as a potential January target Doh

    but he isnt at a top for club precisely because he isn't good enough

    lampard and gerrard are easily better players than him but football is all about balance


    just to reiterate

    THERE ARE NO ANSWERS FOR ENGLAND Biggrin
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    Post by Tweesus Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:23 pm

    Lampard has actually played quite well for Chelsea of late. There's an arguement that he does deserve a call up, and I actually think that him and Barry would actually form a good central midfield partnership too.

    Hopefully Gerrard gets injured ok
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    Post by COTR Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:26 pm

    Lampard has actually played quite well for Chelsea of late. There's an arguement that he does deserve a call up, and I actually think that him and Barry would actually form a good central midfield partnership too.

    ie something gerrard and barry have already done

    gerrard has also been comfortably our best player recently as well

    it's the same old debate


    personally I think hargeaves, gerrard is by far england's best partnership
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    Post by Tweesus Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:33 pm

    Gerrard and Barry didn't really form a good partnership. What happened was, Barry played amazing and Gerrard ran around like a headless chicken doing sweet FA ok I wouldn't call that a partnership exactly.

    He may well have been comfortably your best player, but Lampard has for Chelsea as well, and comparing their form, I'd say Lampard has been better for Chelsea than Gerrard for Liverpool
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    Post by Allez les rouges Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:35 pm

    The one thing you have to say for England's midfield is that a Hargreaves-Gerrard midfield combo hasn't even been tried yet, has it? Though I also feel there's got to be some future in Hargreaves-Carrick for both United and England...

    (By the way Bernd, don't want to restart our argument but a decent argument against Gerrard on quotas from the English perspective – Alan Smith in the Telegraph...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=A1YourView&xml=/sport/2007/11/16/sfnsmi116.xml)

    Yeah a comfortable win is more than likely despite the retarded midfield selection, though Austria did beat the Ivory Coast last month to end a ridiculous series of nine games or something without a win...
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    Post by Isco Benny Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:46 pm

    COTR wrote:
    The Real Martin Troll wrote:
    Allez les rouges wrote:Quite. I'd be damn pissed off if I was an England fan. It's fine to play Lampard, he's a good player (snigger) and probably deserves it on recent form, but it should go without saying that he comes in for Gerrard. To play that ludicrous twosome in the centre again in a friendly is only justifiable in terms of McClaren giving the world a parting shot by just taking the piss.

    And I like the way we have to read the reports about how "Lampard deserves his place" and gradually work out the pathetic truth that it's Barry who he's coming in for, not Gerrard as would make sense – presumably the media outlets are too embarrassed to make "Lampard and Gerrard picked in the middle again" their headline in a neutral report...

    Spot on. Thing is, if Barry were at a top 4 club, this wouldnt be an issue. Its because its "only Villa" he isnt seen as good enough, despite the fact that if newspaper reports are to believed (snigger), he is being tracked by Chelsea as a potential January target Doh

    but he isnt at a top for club precisely because he isn't good enough

    lampard and gerrard are easily better players than him but football is all about balance


    just to reiterate

    THERE ARE NO ANSWERS FOR ENGLAND Biggrin

    I dont buy that for a second. Barry is still at Villa because he is loyal and a Villa boy through and through. He is better than some of the gash I have seen playing for the big clubs over the years (Djemba Djemba, Kleberson, Phil Neville, "the new Zidane" etc),

    he simply doesnt score enough goals so hardly dominates the front pages.

    I dont want to see 2 free scoring midfielders in the centre, because free scoring midfieldersd tend to be selfish, which makes them roam out of position and often overlook playing it simple.

    Barry is never going to be labelled Premiership player of the year, but he is certainly good enough in my opinion
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    Post by Parks lives Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:47 pm

    Allez les rouges wrote:
    (By the way Bernd, don't want to restart our argument but a decent argument against Gerrard on quotas from the English perspective – Alan Smith in the Telegraph...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=A1YourView&xml=/sport/2007/11/16/sfnsmi116.xml)


    Arsenal player, fan, commentator, hype in chief Alan Smith sides with no quotas! I'd never of guessed? Smile
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    Post by Allez les rouges Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:51 pm

    Hype in chief?? Justify??

    Did you actually bother to read the article?
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    Post by Parks lives Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:54 pm

    Yes, it's nothing that hasn't been done before in defence of quotas and his agenda is pretty obvious.

    If you don't think he hypes Arsenal, then I'd be worried.
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    Post by Isco Benny Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:59 pm

    I notice how Smith's article makes no mention about the difference in goalkeeping talent from 1990 to 2007. Back then we had Shilton in nets, with plenty of options available to the manager. Now where do we stand?

    He forgets that the process takes time- we will see the knock on effect in 5/10 years, not immediately.

    I dont actually believe in a quota system anyway, what I believe in is more English players trying it out abroad.
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    Post by Allez les rouges Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:00 pm

    And if you don't bother to come up with any evidence, I won't be surprised.

    I read him regularly in the Telegraph and though I often disagree with him, I'm struggling to pinpoint what exactly it is you're objecting to. The article barely even fucking mentions Arsenal.

    What a lazy post.
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    Post by Allez les rouges Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:02 pm

    The Real Martin Troll wrote:I notice how Smith's article makes no mention about the difference in goalkeeping talent from 1990 to 2007. Back then we had Shilton in nets, with plenty of options available to the manager. Now where do we stand?

    He forgets that the process takes time- we will see the knock on effect in 5/10 years, not immediately.

    I dont actually believe in a quota system anyway, what I believe in is more English players trying it out abroad.

    ok Ale This is the real point, and it probably requires a more adventurous and less insular mindset generally. Kudos to Beckham for seeing it through, less so to Owen.
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    Post by Parks lives Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:05 pm

    He covers an Arsenal game on Sky at least once maybe twice a month and he can't help but go over board. Have you never seen a Sky game he has covered?

    I'm just far from suprised he's given this viewpoint given his background and his constant praise of all things Arsenal/Wenger. As I've said it offers nothing that hasn't already been said, so why it's a good article, I've no idea.
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    Post by Isco Benny Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:11 pm

    Allez les rouges wrote:
    The Real Martin Troll wrote:I notice how Smith's article makes no mention about the difference in goalkeeping talent from 1990 to 2007. Back then we had Shilton in nets, with plenty of options available to the manager. Now where do we stand?

    He forgets that the process takes time- we will see the knock on effect in 5/10 years, not immediately.

    I dont actually believe in a quota system anyway, what I believe in is more English players trying it out abroad.

    ok Ale This is the real point, and it probably requires a more adventurous and less insular mindset generally. Kudos to Beckham for seeing it through, less so to Owen.

    In 1990, plenty of the national team played abroad successfully. The problem is that since the inception of the Premiership, there is so much money for inflated wages, there is little reason to leave these shores.

    Plenty of reason for non English players to come over though under the guise of "being adventurous and non insular" at the same time
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    Post by Allez les rouges Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:14 pm

    It's a decent article that eloquently and articulately sets out the basic points, unlike Gerrard – "Looking here [at the infrastructure of youth football] is more useful than pointing the finger at Johnny foreigner".

    Maybe you should try it sometime Spanky.

    But I forgot, anyone with anything to do with Arsenal is just a hype merchant, the club hasn't actually been responsible for any decent football over the last ten years.

    I don't have Sky so usually see what I do see of it in the pub, where it's harder to hear the punditry. What little I have heard hasn't been objectionable (unlike Gray, Souness et al.) His articles for the Torygraph don't really correspond to your lazy stereotype at all. Maybe you should try and take off your United hat once in a while; that's what the rest of us try to do.
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    Post by Parks lives Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:21 pm

    Allez les rouges wrote:It's a decent article that eloquently and articulately sets out the basic points, unlike Gerrard – "Looking here [at the infrastructure of youth football] is more useful than pointing the finger at Johnny foreigner".

    Maybe you should try it sometime Spanky.

    I'm not even agreeing with Gerrard's opinion. You've come to this conclusion with your own insular mindset. I just think Smith's article whether it's articulate or not offers nothing more that hasn't been said and his agenda is very transparent.

    If you also only think people who can articulate are the only people who come up with better points, your even more insular.

    Allez les rouges wrote:
    But I forgot, anyone with anything to do with Arsenal is just a hype merchant, the club hasn't actually been responsible for any decent football over the last ten years.

    Where have I said they haven't played decent football? The hype that gets up my nose is the articles of people like the one you posted in the Arsenal thread today. 'Arsenal winning the league would be a victory for football'. Laughing

    Allez les rouges wrote:
    I don't have Sky so usually see what I do see of it in the pub, where it's harder to hear the punditry. What little I have heard hasn't been objectionable (unlike Gray, Souness et al.) His articles for the Torygraph don't really correspond to your lazy stereotype at all. Maybe you should try and take off your United hat once in a while; that's what the rest of us try to do.

    That's all I needed to hear.
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    Post by Allez les rouges Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:43 pm

    I don't know what the f@ck you meant by your last point. Are you trying to be covertly offensive? What are you suggesting I should do if I don't want to be fleeced for £30+ a month?

    As usual, you should try reading what I said: my only point is that maybe trying to state your argument eloquently and articulately is something you should try.

    Smith's "agenda" is merely something you've got into your head, it doesn't form part of the substance of his argument at all.

    As for "your even more insular", I don't even know what this means or refers to.

    Why are you reading the Arsenal thread anyway? That's for people who appreciate that the likes of Fabregas and Touré are more appealing than Rooney and Neville.

    Now I'm pissed off. See you later.
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    Post by Parks lives Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:51 pm

    Allez les rouges wrote:I don't know what the f@ck you meant by your last point. Are you trying to be covertly offensive? What are you suggesting I should do if I don't want to be fleeced for £30+ a month?

    As usual, you should try reading what I said: my only point is that maybe trying to state your argument eloquently and articulately is something you should try.

    Smith's "agenda" is merely something you've got into your head, it doesn't form part of the substance of his argument at all.

    As for "your even more insular", I don't even know what this means or refers to.

    Why are you reading the Arsenal thread anyway? That's for people who appreciate that the likes of Fabregas and Touré are more appealing than Rooney and Neville.


    I'm not suggesting you buy Sky, I'm saying your hardly likely to know whether Alan Smith is overly biased without actually having to go through 90 minutes with him commentating.

    My insular comment was aimed at you suggesting that only people who articulate their points can be in the right. That is also the level of how patronising you are as a poster.

    I can also read or post in any thread I like.


    Allez les rouges wrote:
    Now I'm pissed off.


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    Post by Allez les rouges Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:00 pm

    "If you also only think people who can articulate are the only people who come up with better points, your even more insular."

    This was what struck me as the needless and inaccurate putting of words into my mouth, and what pissed me off. I never said such a thing; all I said was I thought Smith's article was OK because it clearly, accurately and articulately responded to what I thought was a lazy "blame the foreigners" argument, as evinced by my quote. You surely are far better placed than I to comment on his Sky punditry/hyping/whatever; by the same token I don't think you can legitimately bring up this "Arsenal bias" you so obsess about here, in a print article of his.

    Call me patronizing, whatever, I just get cross when I think people are lazily attributing bias without justification, or using the "you would say that" or "that's unoriginal" line (none of which amounts to reasoned consideration of the point being discussed), instead of actually engaging in reasoned argument.

    Good picture I must say, they were my sentiments exactly.
    Machiavel
    Machiavel


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    Post by Machiavel Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:16 pm

    Ronaldo: I Want England To Qualify

    Cristiano Ronaldo insists he was England to qualify for next summer's European Championships.

    England have gone out to Portugal on penalties in the last two major tournaments, and Ronaldo himself was the 'enemy number one' for The Three Lions in the second of them.

    "I want England to qualify for Euro 2008," he said.

    "I want England and Portugal to be there because it would be for the good of the game and every fan wants the big teams at major tournaments.

    "But most of all, I would want to play England again because it would be sensational after the spectacle at the last World Cup.

    "The story with Rooney in the World Cup is forgotten.

    "We are good friends, but I insist that I would never change my attitude.

    "I would always do anything for Portugal when I play a game for my country."

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    England squad for Austria and Croatia - Page 7 Empty Re: England squad for Austria and Croatia

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