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    What kind of club makes money from a disaster !

    lrdsucksgoats
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    Post by lrdsucksgoats Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:33 am

    Allez les rouges wrote:
    Lee Dickson wrote:
    Allez les rouges wrote:I can't believe I'm writing this but I'm with United on this one. With all due respect to Noel Cantwell, who the feck is he? I can almost understand City fans being miffed at being supposed to stay silent for him – a classic example of destroying the meaning of these silences through overuse. It's not a reasonable comparison though.

    This is quite obviously different – a disaster which caused the deaths of a generation of talent and whose significance goes far beyond its meaning to one club. The applause thing I find slightly forced and inappropriate at times – quite understandable if, say, an aged legend had died naturally, but entirely inappropriate here. Applause for Phil O'Donnell would be ridiculous enough, but imagine applause for 9/11, for fuck's sake.

    The sponsor's name clearly shouldn't go on the memorial, and the silence is equally clearly the right thing to do.

    http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=2&x_article=265

    A somewhat mischievous misinterpretation, which rather proves my point I think.

    Sure, I meant no dissent...
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    Post by Allez les rouges Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:39 am

    I think it's totally right to have something for the likes of Best, and yeah applause is a good solution there (especially as everyone had seen the end coming for a while). But of course you can't commemorate disasters, that cut people off in their prime, with applause! There's nothing to celebrate – it's precisely the potential lost that's the tragedy.
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    Post by Deano Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:43 am

    Allez les rouges wrote:I think it's totally right to have something for the likes of Best, and yeah applause is a good solution there (especially as everyone had seen the end coming for a while). But of course you can't commemorate disasters, that cut people off in their prime, with applause! There's nothing to celebrate – it's precisely the potential lost that's the tragedy.

    I think with football it's just appreciation. It was a disaster, but they were all footballers...and loved the game like we do. I just think it's respectful and a nice gesture tbh...
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    Post by Allez les rouges Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:51 am

    I know it sounds hardline and unnecessarily uncompromising when lots of people would see applause as the fairest solution, but I still think it's a slightly jarring "line of least resistance". I associate applause with the celebration of a life, or something similar. This was a tragedy, and atavistic hatred as an excuse for finding a way around it isn't good enough in my book.

    I know Michael Henderson isn't usually received well on here Wink but:

    Only silence can do justice for Busby Babes

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2008/01/18/sfnhen118.xml
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    Post by Deano Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:56 am

    I think a silence would be better to mark respect for a tragedy like this one...the thing is, it could easily be ruined. I'd still try and go ahead with it though...whoever ruins it is clearly a Pr!ck.
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    Post by christmasborocooper Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:58 am

    In the end its obviously the City fans fearing the backlash that would be inevitable if a few fools ruin a silence...It could spark fights in and out of the ground aswell if anyone does ruin it. Though with it being a derby there's probably going to be fights anyway.
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    Post by Parks lives Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:00 pm

    Very good article.
    Allez les rouges
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    Post by Allez les rouges Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:02 pm

    That's kind of what I was thinking. I find it amusing the way everyone assumes Henderson is a Manc, and is so over-sensitive about his criticism of a few City "fans" – thinking of the abuse he got last time for daring to suggest neutrals should cheer for Arsenal Laugh

    Obviously I don't agree with his labelling of the numbskulls who don't respect silence as "criminals", and clearly he gets carried away with rhetoric in mocking the "continental custom" argument for applause, but I think the basic sentiment is right. I don't think the kind of anti-Manc hatred that refuses to respect their "glorious dead" of fifty years ago is very cool.
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    Post by Roger Hunt Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:14 pm

    borocooper wrote:In the end its obviously the City fans fearing the backlash that would be inevitable if a few fools ruin a silence...It could spark fights in and out of the ground aswell if anyone does ruin it. Though with it being a derby there's probably going to be fights anyway.

    Not that any trouble involving Man U fans will get reported anyway.
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    Post by Parks lives Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:36 pm

    Interesting take on it from a Man City forum.

    http://forum.mancityforum.co.uk/Topic141262-10-1.aspx

    Most of them are worried that other fans will ruin the reputation of all City fans. Some even think Man United are doing it on purpose to ruin their name. scratch
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    Post by Sgoater1 Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:49 pm

    borocooper wrote:In the end its obviously the City fans fearing the backlash that would be inevitable if a few fools ruin a silence...It could spark fights in and out of the ground aswell if anyone does ruin it. Though with it being a derby there's probably going to be fights anyway.

    Yeah it always kicks off when its the derby anyway BUT it has been said by fans that if (when) the mins silence is broken its going to crank the tension up a level and the $h!t will really hit the fan after the game. Plus when you come out of the swamp there is little police protection as the away fans are in the corner f the ground and not properly segrgated as you come out.

    Having a mins applause could stop a lot of fighting and a lot of innocent people who will happily pay their resepcts during a mins silnce getting the $h!t kicked out of them.

    In the common interest of fan saftey the silence should not happen !

    Although it wouldnt surprise me if city fans try and start an applause spontaniously anyway.
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    Post by Parks lives Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:57 pm

    But surely you can that Man United fans won't want to applause whats the greatest tragedy in their history?
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    Post by Allez les rouges Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:58 pm

    Still think "applause" is in inappropriate cop-out in this context. If you're right Goater and applause, for a disaster, is heavily advisable "in the interests of fan safety" – which you may very well be – then I think that's a sad indictment of British football culture.
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    Post by L.r.d Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:18 pm

    110% wrote:
    Di Caniooooo! wrote:
    L r d wrote:It's an old fashioned thing, maybe clapping appeals more to the modern age, but the people who care about this more are not modern.... I think a minute's silence is what they want so they should have it. Surely it's not hard to shut up for just one minute.
    You've never met a city supporter have you?

    maybe he's never been to manchester?

    OOOOOOOO GOOD ONE
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    Post by 110% Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:51 pm

    L r d wrote:
    110% wrote:
    Di Caniooooo! wrote:
    L r d wrote:It's an old fashioned thing, maybe clapping appeals more to the modern age, but the people who care about this more are not modern.... I think a minute's silence is what they want so they should have it. Surely it's not hard to shut up for just one minute.
    You've never met a city supporter have you?

    maybe he's never been to manchester?

    OOOOOOOO GOOD ONE

    wasn't actually a joke, you are in london right and most man city fans would be in manchester
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    Post by L.r.d Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:55 pm

    okay
    Sgoater1
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    Post by Sgoater1 Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:40 pm

    Parks lives wrote:But surely you can that Man United fans won't want to applause whats the greatest tragedy in their history?

    BUT you could look at it that they would aslo be applauding the contribution the players that died made for their club and the legacy they left.
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    Post by S4P Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:57 pm

    Wouldn't be surprised if AID'S put United up to this.

    What have they been like as sponsors in general?
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    Post by Sgoater1 Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:28 pm

    http://timesonline.typepad.com/fanzine_fanzone/2008/01/they-dont-they.html

    January 22, 2008

    "They don't, they don't speak for us..."

    The 138th Manchester derby is still over two weeks away, but already City fans are being castigated and vilified by the national media. The game, as has been well documented for the last god knows how many months, is going to be a sensitive affair falling, as it does, just four days after the 50th anniversary of the Munich air disaster. There is some debate as to whether or not this is a freak coincidence, one of those anomalies thrown up by the computer which generates Premiership fixtures each summer, or if United instigated the idea, romantically yet naively seeing it as an ideal opportunity for the city of Manchester to be, ahem, united in paying their respects to the Munich dead. One wonders if this whole issue could have been averted by simply rearranging the fixture with a minimum of fuss behind the scenes.

    The latest furore surrounds the revelation that City's Official Supporter's Club asked United to consider holding a minute's applause as opposed to silence, as is often the tradition these days, in order to nullify the very real prospect of a small minority of City fans being disrespectful. It wasn't a particularly unreasonable request, a preventative measure given that the world's eyes will be upon us. Not that the press saw it that way, of course. "City fans demand Munich tribute to be scrapped" screamed the morning's headlines. Hardly. We're being hung, drawn and quartered before the game has even taken place. Still, it's not for us to tell United how to conduct their tribute.

    You almost sense that United fans and the media are willing us to break the silence; every story needs its bad guys and City fit the bill perfectly. There must be literally hundreds of thousands of City fans in the world, yet our reputation will be forever sullied by some drunken lout who thinks it's the height of hilarity to scream an obscenity whilst the rest of us pay our respects. I'm not sure if the press would get away with pigeon holing any other section of society based on the actions of a tiny minority, but what can you do? The knives are already being sharpened.

    Every right minded City fan is dreading this fixture, and not for football reasons. It's pretty much a given that the silence will be broken, as there is a small, but vocal, minority of City fans completely lacking in civil decency who will do anything to antagonise their United rivals. How hard can it be to remain silent for one solitary minute, to respect the young men who tragically lost their lives? The vast majority of us find such taunts nauseating and abhorrent, hence the request for a minute's applause so that we could drown out the Neanderthals, but it wasn't to be.

    Many United fans revel in their own self-righteousness, but there's a degree of hypocrisy about this, evident in the songs sung about Marc Vivien Foe, Hillsborough and, going further back, Aberfan. Every team has their moronic element I guess, and City are no different.

    As a club, City are doing everything within their power to play their part in the tributes. The team will play in a special commemorative kit, incorporating a black ribbon with the sponsor's logo removed (which is probably for the best, given that we're currently sponsored by an airline). United will play in a replica of the strip worn by the 1958 side, which will probably be on sale in the Megastore after the game. Never ones to miss an opportunity. There's currently a big memorial poster outside Old Trafford, with the sponsor's AIG logo crudely plastered on it, which seems a little crass. But United have been exploiting Munich for many years, making the tragedy emblematic whilst simultaneously neglecting the surviving players and families of those who passed away (as detailed in Jeff Connor's excellent "The Lost Babes").

    In addition to the special kit, club captain Richard Dunne and manager Sven Goran Eriksson have written to the 3,000 supporters attending the game, asking them to uphold the image of the club by observing the minute's silence respectfully. The letters are accompanied by a photograph of the late Frank Swift, City's greatest ever keeper, who also passed away in the tragedy whilst covering the game for the News of the World. This hasn't gone down too well with some City fans, as the club has done nothing of note to remember Swift in the past, but now seem to be using his legacy as a bargaining tool ahead of the game.

    The over riding feeling amongst many City fans is that we should just turn up, pay our respects by observing the silence, not get involved in the media circus surrounding the game, and then get on with the task in hand; namely aiming to beat United at Old Trafford for the first time since that glorious day in 1974 when Denis Law back-heeled them into Division Two.

    Ric Turner (Bluemoon)

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Brilliant article.
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    Post by Sgoater1 Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:37 pm

    TBh im getting really pissed off with the fact U*d wont switch the min silence for applause. They keep going on about how massive the Munich disaster is to the club yet WHY DIDNT THEY HAVE THE MUNICH BENEFIT MATCH UNTIL 1998, 40 years after the event ?

    Even then it was e fans putting their hands in their pockets to help out the widows of the players that died whilst the club has done very very little. Each family apparently got £47k (AFTER the cost of travel and expenses for Cantona, his European XI and their entourage to the game: £90,555) from the game, which tbh is f@ck all.

    Its well known that some families resent the Munich exhibition in the United museum, which earned an estimated £1.8m last year, and other commercial exploitation of the club's history, for which no royalties are paid.

    Even ex player Ray Woods once said"We feel that we helped to build Manchester United," says former player Ray Wood. "They received massive international support following the disaster. But they didn't treat people properly then, did nothing for us all those years, and they're still making money out of it directly now."

    U*d can f@ck off they're c**ts, and id love it if we beat them, love it!!!!!

    Ok rant over.
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    Post by Sgoater1 Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:46 pm

    Do any U*d fans have an opinion ? Please do not hide in the shadow of the shame that hangs on your clubs inability to act correctly.
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    Post by Murray Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:57 pm

    There are far too many minute's silences at football matches nowadays. Every time some minor nobody dies they have one. It is ridiculous that Man U are still remembering (or more accurately exploiting) Munich 50 years later.
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    Post by L.r.d Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:26 pm

    Sgoater1 wrote:Do any U*d fans have an opinion ? Please do not hide in the shadow of the shame that hangs on your clubs inability to act correctly.

    I think you're being ridiculous to be honest. Most views on this i have seen, is that man utd are doing the right thing by asking for the silence. Applause is ok in some instances, but for this occasion it isnt. Particularly among elder people the silence if preferred, and lots of people seem to think applause was only introduced to hide from having morons ruining it. So why should they change such an occasion for a few away fans because they might not act correctly? They should arrive 5 minutes late if they are that childish they cannot make themselves be quiet for one minute. This is not a minutes silence for an ex strikers dog who just went into surgery. A 50 year anniversary of a plane crash that wiped out almost a whole team.
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    Post by lrdsucksgoats Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:38 pm

    L r d wrote:
    Sgoater1 wrote:Do any U*d fans have an opinion ? Please do not hide in the shadow of the shame that hangs on your clubs inability to act correctly.

    I think you're being ridiculous to be honest. Most views on this i have seen, is that man utd are doing the right thing by asking for the silence. Applause is ok in some instances, but for this occasion it isnt. Particularly among elder people the silence if preferred, and lots of people seem to think applause was only introduced to hide from having morons ruining it. So why should they change such an occasion for a few away fans because they might not act correctly? They should arrive 5 minutes late if they are that childish they cannot make themselves be quiet for one minute. This is not a minutes silence for an ex strikers dog who just went into surgery. A 50 year anniversary of a plane crash that wiped out almost a whole team.

    Very Happy Very Happy
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    Post by Glenarch of the Glen Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:58 pm

    The minutes silence on February 10th is brought to you by Nescafé

    c**ts Ale
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    Post by Parks lives Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:09 pm

    Sgoater1 wrote:Do any U*d fans have an opinion ? Please do not hide in the shadow of the shame that hangs on your clubs inability to act correctly.

    I've given my opinion already. The football club as a whole, the fans and the families of the victims prefer us to have a silence. I agree with that as well.

    It seems like Man City fans are just worried about a backlash against themselves because some people won't be able to control themselves.
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    Post by Sgoater1 Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:04 pm

    1959 Feb 14th Man U(A)
    1960 Feb 6th Man U(A)
    1962 Feb 10th Man U(H)
    1966 Jan 21st Man U(H)
    1979 Feb 10th Man U(H)
    1981 Feb 21st Man U(H)
    1990 Feb 3rd Man U(A)
    1995 Feb 11th Man U(H)
    2003 Feb 9th Man U(A)
    2004 Feb 14th Man U(A) FA Cup
    2005 Feb 13th Man U(H)
    2008 Feb 10th Man U(A)

    I did some research and came up with the above list of how many times we have played U*d around the date of the munich air disaster, quite shocking we have played them 13 times. My conclusion is U*d fix the fixtures....only joking.
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    Post by Roger Hunt Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:42 pm

    Murray wrote:There are far too many minute's silences at football matches nowadays. Every time some minor nobody dies they have one. It is ridiculous that Man U are still remembering (or more accurately exploiting) Munich 50 years later.

    I find it somewhat hard to express quite how offensive I find this remark.
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    Post by 110% Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:35 pm

    Manu should get their minutes silence, but will there be one at all matches that weekend?
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    Post by Allez les rouges Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:43 pm

    Roger Hunt wrote:
    Murray wrote:There are far too many minute's silences at football matches nowadays. Every time some minor nobody dies they have one. It is ridiculous that Man U are still remembering (or more accurately exploiting) Munich 50 years later.

    I find it somewhat hard to express quite how offensive I find this remark.

    Says it all that even a Liverpool fan takes this view. I tend to be pretty cynical about modern society's hypocritical do-gooding tendencies, but in this case I tend to agree with Roger.

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